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alephnerd 12 hours ago

It isn't.

As someone who has made hiring and firing decisions at the Board level, the people who are the most severely affected were either (in no order):

1. Working remotely in North America but demanding Bay Area salaries without the chops to justify it.

2. Working in Western Europe (they complain more about stuff irrelevant to the business but shy away from business critical decision making when offered the opportunity, unlike their Czech, Polish, Romanian, and Bulgarian peers despite us paying €90k-150k TCs across the EU, and Warsaw+Prague becoming Berlin level expensive).

3. Bootcamp grads who never fixed skills issues (foundational knowledge is foundational for a reason).

4. Getting paid Bay Area or Seattle salaries while living in LCOL regions like RTP. The whole point of a Cary office was inshoring - the talent was meh but if we needed a cheap QA engineer or move ops for a stagnant part of our business in 2019 we'd move that job and BU there. They didn't realize they were viewed as at the bottom of the totem pole skills wise.

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So long as you keep your skills sharp, have foundational computer science and engineering knowledge, and live in the primary tech hubs globally, it's a pretty good market.

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Edit: can't reply

> What, in your opinion are the “foundational” CS skills the #3 people are missing

If you've survived this long, I think you will be fine. But I'd recommend anyone from a bootcamp to take an OS course comparable to CS61 [0], an algos course comparable to CS170 [1], and a programming language design course comparable to CS421 [2].

There is foundational design and architectural patterns and knowledge that are taught in OS, Programming Language Design, and Algos classes that cannot be taught in a bootcamp.

My recommendation for people in your shoes is to do GATech's OMSCS or UPenn's online MCIT to learn some of the foundational stuff you were never introduced to at a bootcamp.

[0] - https://cs61.seas.harvard.edu/site/2025/

[1] - https://cs170.org/

[2] - https://cs421-sp26-web.pages.dev/

dgellow 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I feel so much disdain for workers coming from your words. I hope to never work for someone like you

ieieje 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

He’s a bozo who said he would delete his account.

And yet he’s still among us. Pathetic lmao.

alephnerd 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Doesn't matter to me. You're in Germany, not Czechia.

ieieje 10 hours ago | parent [-]

And you’re still on HN after posting you wanted your account deleted.

Who are you mate? You think you’re someone special? Hahahahh

falkensmaize 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m a bootcamp grad (although it was an intense 5-night a week, year long bootcamp, not some 6-week build-a-demo class). I have a college degree but it’s in the arts.

I do try to continually improve my skill set, refresh on design patterns, etc. I’m currently employed and have been for the last six years. I don’t really know if I fall in category 3 or not.

What, in your opinion are the “foundational” CS skills the #3 people are missing?

luke5441 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As someone maybe in group (2). What kind of stereotyping is this? And why do you want to have non-complaining worker drones? Maybe older people from those countries are good at keeping their head down in soviet style work configurations, but is this the kind of company you want to have?

I'd more guess it is that there is a severe income tax advantage, B2B contracts are also easier in eastern Europe.

alephnerd 12 hours ago | parent [-]

> why do you want to have non-complaining worker drones

We want opinionated engineers. But we want engineers who will respond to a slack message after 5pm during a P1 escalation.

> I'd more guess it is that there is a severe income tax advantage

Somewhat but not enough to move the needle because depending on the local government, they are matching cross-EU subsidizes.

> older people from those countries are good at keeping their head down in soviet style work configurations

Other way around. The Western European employees want a heads down and no input but high paying job.

CEE peers will push back and be opinionated but also try to think from a business outcomes perspective.

> soviet style work configurations

Which ironically is closer to German business and work culture instead of in Eastern Europe.

Edit: can't reply

> Of course if you pay someone 135k vs 70k real income

Salaries at the 75th percentile and above for SWEs are kept constant across Europe.

Heck, the companies for which I am a board member as well as companies at I have previously been management or line-level engineers all pay in the €130K-€170K TC range in Germany as well as across the CEE.

This is waaaaaay above TC for the average European in tech and we know it.

It sucks but the reality is the talent density in Western Europe is weaker than in the CEE, and it is mindset driven.

A German SWE wants a 9-5. A Czech SWE wants to build the next JetBrains.

We want to hire or fund the latter, not the former.

luke5441 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's idk 10% for B2B in Poland and more than 50% in western Europe. Of course if you pay someone 135k vs 70k real income the first person will put in more effort.

In western Europe you'd just have to specify the availability requirements and they'd do it there as well. You'd just have to pay for it.

Edit: If you pay someone 150k€ in Germany what they see after-tax is just not that much. They are going to compare this with the 9-5 IGM position (when it is available...). Why not just admit that you don't want to pay equivalent wages for accessing the western european market?

noprocrasted 11 hours ago | parent [-]

> Why not just admit that you don't want to pay equivalent wages for accessing the western european market?

Is it his responsibility? If some countries have a better tax policy, why should he not take advantage of it, and ultimately end up in a situation that benefits both the employee and his company?

luke5441 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Well, if he says that a solution for me would be to move to a country with better tax policy. If he says that it is some issue with western European work mentality, that won't help because my CV would show that I am western European.

alephnerd 8 hours ago | parent [-]

> If he says that it is some issue with western European work mentality, that won't help because my CV would show that I am western European.

If you are actually talented, have a good work ethic, and the track record to show that then get a job that relocates you to London.

That is your only option if you want to stay in Western Europe as a SWE long term.

noprocrasted 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> get a job that relocates you to London

This is terrible advice. Source: been there, done that (worked my ass off to waste half my TC on taxes and the other half on cost of living). I ended up moving to a low-tax Eastern European country so I can actually feel like I'm being fairly compensated for said talent and work ethic.

I don't actually see how your advice improves the situation - the net disposable income you'll end up with is about the same you'll have from being lazy in Western Europe - except at the very least, some Western European countries are actually nice to live in. If you're gonna be poor anyway, may as well be poor in a nicer place.

multjoy 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>But we want engineers who will respond to a slack message after 5pm during a P1 escalation.

Then you're going to have to pay, aren't you.

alephnerd 8 hours ago | parent [-]

We do. €130K-€170K TC is at the top of the range across ALL of Europe outside of HFT. Even London Investments Bankers don't make that much outside the 75th percentile and above.

Money ain't a problem, attitude is.

The Western Europeans with the right attitude either move to America (eg. I'm sponsoring the O-1 of 2 founders who are shifting from London to SF for that reason) or end up becoming leadership for American companies in Western Europe.

throw-the-towel 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hey, care to share some company names if you're still hiring?

alephnerd 7 hours ago | parent [-]

You're a Russian national (though I do recognize you appear to be opposed to the status quo back in Russia). Sadly it's too difficult to hire a Russian passport holder.

icedchai 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Translation: for almost everyone not living in a major tech hub, it's not a good market.

queenkjuul 10 hours ago | parent [-]

I.e. "for most people..."

weakfish 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

lol you might work for my company re: point 4

alephnerd 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Naw, I would never work there unless I was given Jeetu or Ammar's job.

That said, you seem like someone who actually has the calibre to be hired at a good Security, DevTools, or Infra company.

This is my throwaway, but my two cents to you is to leave asap and try to find a way to work at a company that values OS and kernel level knowledge (probably GCP atm), but that would require relocating to the Bay or NYC.

yolo3000 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why do you even hire in Europe when the smartest people are in the Bay Area?

VerifiedReports 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Why even post such an absurd comment?

yolo3000 12 hours ago | parent [-]

I find it absurd how she generalized that Western Europe is complaining a lot and less pragmatic than whatever. The same for working remote but not having the chops like the 'Bay Area'. Could have been a serious question as well, why do you find it absurd?

paulcole 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Most jobs don’t require the smartest people.

alephnerd 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In some subindustries within tech (eg. Cybersecurity), the best engineering talent is now in Eastern Europe, Israel, and India and not the Bay.

Additionally, diaspora engineers whose parents are growing old are starting to move back to the old country to be close with them.

porridgeraisin 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I see you read the srinivas narayan article :P

He's moving back close to where I stay.

Many others from the big labs are moving back to their core EE field into stuff like optical networks for data centers and so on by the way. That is a lot of the attrition.

alephnerd 8 hours ago | parent [-]

> I see you read the srinivas narayan article

Nope.

At his level and position I doubt that is actually the primary reason simply because at his level, a way would have been found to retain him despite family issues (eg. opening an OpenAI tech office in Bangalore, Hyderabad, or Chennai or make him GM for OpenAI in India). Something else is going on with Srinivas' departure - either pushed out by Fidji or planning on starting his own thing.

That said, in my peer group I would say around 25-35% of people left for the family reason - especially after how COVID was handled in India. At one point, Google leadership was offering to match MTV salaries for engineers and PMs who Google wanted to retain but who decided to shift back to India to care for family during and slightly after the pandemic.

> Many others from the big labs are moving back to their core EE field into stuff like optical networks for data centers and so on by the way. That is a lot of the attrition.

My hunch is he is probably leaving to work on something like this or an adjacent space, but admitting as such would leave him open to litigation. That said, given his age I'd assume family decisions are also somewhat playing a role.

Ofc, some Indian diaspora types do leave for other reasons (eg. Sridhar Vembu and his divorce).

On the EE and optical side, diaspora founders are actually serious about leaving the US for Hyderabad simply because the Indian vintages of American deeptech funds plus the RDI are giving ridiculously competitive funding terms for startups in that space.

greenchair 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

ha! thanks