As someone maybe in group (2). What kind of stereotyping is this? And why do you want to have non-complaining worker drones? Maybe older people from those countries are good at keeping their head down in soviet style work configurations, but is this the kind of company you want to have?

I'd more guess it is that there is a severe income tax advantage, B2B contracts are also easier in eastern Europe.

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alephnerd 12 hours ago | parent [-]

> why do you want to have non-complaining worker drones

We want opinionated engineers. But we want engineers who will respond to a slack message after 5pm during a P1 escalation.

> I'd more guess it is that there is a severe income tax advantage

Somewhat but not enough to move the needle because depending on the local government, they are matching cross-EU subsidizes.

> older people from those countries are good at keeping their head down in soviet style work configurations

Other way around. The Western European employees want a heads down and no input but high paying job.

CEE peers will push back and be opinionated but also try to think from a business outcomes perspective.

> soviet style work configurations

Which ironically is closer to German business and work culture instead of in Eastern Europe.

Edit: can't reply

> Of course if you pay someone 135k vs 70k real income

Salaries at the 75th percentile and above for SWEs are kept constant across Europe.

Heck, the companies for which I am a board member as well as companies at I have previously been management or line-level engineers all pay in the €130K-€170K TC range in Germany as well as across the CEE.

This is waaaaaay above TC for the average European in tech and we know it.

It sucks but the reality is the talent density in Western Europe is weaker than in the CEE, and it is mindset driven.

A German SWE wants a 9-5. A Czech SWE wants to build the next JetBrains.

We want to hire or fund the latter, not the former.

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luke5441 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's idk 10% for B2B in Poland and more than 50% in western Europe. Of course if you pay someone 135k vs 70k real income the first person will put in more effort.

In western Europe you'd just have to specify the availability requirements and they'd do it there as well. You'd just have to pay for it.

Edit: If you pay someone 150k€ in Germany what they see after-tax is just not that much. They are going to compare this with the 9-5 IGM position (when it is available...). Why not just admit that you don't want to pay equivalent wages for accessing the western european market?

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noprocrasted 11 hours ago | parent [-]

> Why not just admit that you don't want to pay equivalent wages for accessing the western european market?

Is it his responsibility? If some countries have a better tax policy, why should he not take advantage of it, and ultimately end up in a situation that benefits both the employee and his company?

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luke5441 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Well, if he says that a solution for me would be to move to a country with better tax policy. If he says that it is some issue with western European work mentality, that won't help because my CV would show that I am western European.

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alephnerd 8 hours ago | parent [-]

> If he says that it is some issue with western European work mentality, that won't help because my CV would show that I am western European.

If you are actually talented, have a good work ethic, and the track record to show that then get a job that relocates you to London.

That is your only option if you want to stay in Western Europe as a SWE long term.

	▲	noprocrasted 7 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> get a job that relocates you to London This is terrible advice. Source: been there, done that (worked my ass off to waste half my TC on taxes and the other half on cost of living). I ended up moving to a low-tax Eastern European country so I can actually feel like I'm being fairly compensated for said talent and work ethic. I don't actually see how your advice improves the situation - the net disposable income you'll end up with is about the same you'll have from being lazy in Western Europe - except at the very least, some Western European countries are actually nice to live in. If you're gonna be poor anyway, may as well be poor in a nicer place.

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multjoy 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>But we want engineers who will respond to a slack message after 5pm during a P1 escalation.

Then you're going to have to pay, aren't you.

	▲	alephnerd 8 hours ago \| parent [-]
		We do. €130K-€170K TC is at the top of the range across ALL of Europe outside of HFT. Even London Investments Bankers don't make that much outside the 75th percentile and above. Money ain't a problem, attitude is. The Western Europeans with the right attitude either move to America (eg. I'm sponsoring the O-1 of 2 founders who are shifting from London to SF for that reason) or end up becoming leadership for American companies in Western Europe.

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throw-the-towel 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hey, care to share some company names if you're still hiring?

	▲	alephnerd 7 hours ago \| parent [-]
		You're a Russian national (though I do recognize you appear to be opposed to the status quo back in Russia). Sadly it's too difficult to hire a Russian passport holder.