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Zugzwang(en.wikipedia.org)
62 points by Qem 3 hours ago | 32 comments
The_Blade a few seconds ago | parent | next [-]

Zwischenzug (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwischenzug) is also a good one and is equivalent to intermezzo as an "in-between move"

i feel like Musk does it on a daily basis with all the heavy artillery he has on the board

ucarion 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In old-school chess AIs, zugzwang is also of interest because it can break null-move pruning[0], which is a way to prune the search tree. "Null move" just means "skip your turn", and the assumption that skipping your turn is always worse than the optimal move. But in zugzwang positions, that assumption is wrong, so you have to avoid doing null-move pruning.

Stockfish's heuristic for "risk of zugzwang" is basically "only kings and pawns left over", alongside logic for "is null-move pruning even useful right now" [1]:

    // Step 9. Null move search with verification search
    if (cutNode && ss->staticEval >= beta - 16 * depth - 53 * improving + 378 && !excludedMove
        && pos.non_pawn_material(us) && ss->ply >= nmpMinPly && !is_loss(beta))
    {

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null-move_heuristic

[1]: https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/blob/1a882ef...

nostrademons 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Relevant for a lot of geopolitical and corporate strategic situations as well. The whole Mideast situation we're in now is because we were in zugzwang and a couple leaders felt the compulsion to move. Taiwan is a similar situation: the best policy is "strategic ambiguity", which is holding for now, but is a bit of an unstable equilibrium.

More relevant to a business site, this is the situation many large corporations find themselves in. Say you're Google and you own an immensely profitable monopoly. The very best thing you can do is nothing; anything you do risks upsetting the delicate competitive equilibrium that you're winning. If you're an executive, how do you do nothing? You can't very well hire thousands of employees to do nothing and pay them to do it. But if you don't have thousands of employees, and your job is doing nothing, how do you justify the millions that they're paying you?

The strategy many executives use is to set different parts of their organization at odds with each other, so that they each create busywork that other employees must do. Everybody is fully utilized, and yet in the big picture nothing changes. Oftentimes they will create big strategic initiatives that are tangential to the golden goose, spending billions on boondoggles that don't actually do anything, because the whole point is to do nothing while seeming like you need thousands of people to do it. And the whole reason for that is because most people are very bad at sitting still, and so if you didn't pay them a whole lot to do nothing useful, the useful stuff they'd be doing would be trying to compete with and unseat you. (You can also see this in the billion dollar paydays that entrepreneurs get when they mount a credible threat of unseating the giant incumbent.)

sobellian 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

If you would lose even if you didn't move, that is not zugzwang. Zugzwang is when, because you must move per the rules of the game, you lose. I don't really see that dynamic in foreign policy. Any country has the option of maintaining its current policy. Whether or not it's wise, the option exists.

shermantanktop 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Geopolitically, the no-action move is rarely unavailable. The motivation to do something rash like start a war out of the blue is often down to the decision of a single person. That leader may have political reasons to do it but they aren’t being forced to do it, as they would in a turn-based game.

alex43578 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That’s a bit cynical to view every corporate action through that lens. There’s certainly the innovator’s dilemma, and plenty of busy work, but to your Google example, plenty of tasks and developments are needed to keep the thing running.

Detect and counter black hat SEO, build or acquire a new product you can spread ads to (Maps, YouTube), create a chatbot that can eventually get ads if search is supplanted. These things support or maintain that monopoly/equilibrium you’re talking about.

pmontra 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Two teams, one digs holes, the other one fills holes. Maybe an advice by Keynes during the Great Depression.

gzread an hour ago | parent [-]

people mock communism for this, but capitalism also does it all the time

colechristensen 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Relevant for a lot of geopolitical and corporate strategic situations as well. The whole Mideast situation we're in now is because we were in zugzwang and a couple leaders felt the compulsion to move. Taiwan is a similar situation: the best policy is "strategic ambiguity", which is holding for now, but is a bit of an unstable equilibrium.

This isn't the case at all.

Obama HAD a deal with Iran that Trump tanked in his first term. Israel did not have to respond to a terrorist attack with genocide. Trump could have said No to Netanyahu who clearly threatened to attack Iran with or without us, it turns out we could indeed put pressure on them not to attack, but TACO.

Everything that's happening in the middle east is a series of blunders by fools.

alex43578 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

And on the flip side, Iran could choose not to pursue a nuke and violate the NPT. Hamas could choose not to kill 800-some civilians and take 250 hostages, etc.

Sardtok 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

That nuke they are apparently working has been just around the corner for over 30 years according to Israeli propaganda.

colechristensen 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Certainly, I was only talking about one side of the conflict, the errors in our own house.

gzread an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

why would Iran not make a nuke when America keeps bombing countries that don't have nukes, and avoids bombing countries that have nukes (most notably North Korea)? They have all the incentives to have a nuke so they'll stop getting bombed. Obama negotiated to avoid this but Trump ripped it up and bombed them, so they're definitely not going to trust any agreements with the west ever again. From their perspective, their only path to not getting bombed to shit involves having several nukes. It's quite rational for them to do that.

gzread an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Small correction: Israel has been doing a genocide continually since 1948 - it didn't start in 2023.

layer8 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The metaphoric meaning of being under “Zugzwang” in German is very similar to “forcing someone’s hand”, from the perspective of the one whose hand is being forced. It means being forced to act, as opposed to not taking action.

haunter 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In MTG control decks and a subset of that, prison decks are the prime and extreme example of that. Especially something like Lantern Control. It's not about winning, it's about trapping your opponent _not able to_ win.

b3n 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Go is a turn based game without this feature (or bug?) because you aren't forced to move, you can instead pass. Both players passing in a row implies neither player thinks they can improve their position and the game ends.

jonasenordin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I recently happened upon a comment (not on HN) that seemed to treat 'zugzwang' as a synonym for 'deadlock'. Possibly because 'zugzwang' sounds really cool and makes your inner voice sound intelligent to your inner ear.

DonThomasitos 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The difference to a deadlock is that a deadlock is a inability to move, the zugzwang is an obligation to move.

alex43578 2 hours ago | parent [-]

An obligation to move to your disadvantage.

Krasnol an hour ago | parent [-]

The disadvantage is the fact that you're obligated to move. The outcome of the move is not determined though.

alex43578 an hour ago | parent [-]

“Any legal move will worsen their position”, so the outcome of your move is determined to be inherently negative.

layer8 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

More accurately, it’s being forced to move a specific piece despite disadvantages, because not moving it would result in an even worse outcome — as opposed to moving a different piece that you’d otherwise prefer to move. So it means being forced to move that first piece instead of not moving it (instead of moving a different piece).

And that’s the generalized meaning in German, being forced to act with respect to a specific thing, where you’d normally prefer to keep it in its current state.

Krasnol an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The word has it's use outside the chess world though and there it is as I wrote it.

bitshiftfaced an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's kind of an illusion when you think about it. "Whose turn it is" is an inseparable part of the game state. If any move makes the game state worse this turn, then the game state was already bad before this turn.

stabbles an hour ago | parent [-]

It's not necessarily an illusion. If chess is solved and it turns out white wins with perfect play, black's first move is zugzwang.

HocusLocus 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do corporations get drawn to AI from a compulsion to make a move addressing it?

"Fear of missing out"

jgalt212 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The only way to win is not to play.

michaelsshaw 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

Not playing is a losing move.

jgalt212 24 minutes ago | parent [-]

Unless the game is global thermonuclear war.

I've led the horse to water.

michaelsshaw 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

This is an article about chess.

mock-possum 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sounds a bit like a Xanatos Gambit

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit

Differences being Zugzwang explicitly doesn’t allow a non-move, and I guess assumes a zero sum game? Whereas a Xanatos Gabmit is flexible enough to accommodate both non-moves, and a non-zero-sum setting.

Either way, for your opponent, all roads lead to ruin.