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Drone pilot makes US rescind no-fly zones around unmarked, moving ICE vehicles(arstechnica.com)
213 points by Bender 11 hours ago | 47 comments
delichon 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Unmarked no-fly zones at unannounced times and locations are a remarkable innovation. Hopefully they will tell you when and where you shouldn't have been when they charge you for it, but that may be classified.

hn_throwaway_99 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Ambiguous laws (which in this case are by definition impossible to comply with) which are capriciously enforced are a hallmark of authoritarian and fascist regimes. Sadly ironic, the US government used to highlight this fact:

"Authoritarian regimes’ unclear laws make anyone a suspect" - https://ge.usembassy.gov/authoritarian-regimes-unclear-laws-...

throw0101a 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

“For my friends everything, for my enemies the law.” ― Oscar R. Benavides, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Óscar_R._Benavides

geoduck14 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Of note, the article seems to mention 3 things: 1) Vague laws 2) Arbitrary Enforcement 3) Lack of due process

All three seem to be important facts for an Authoritarian Regieme

I point this out, because I believe the US has long had vague laws, and our Due Process helps kick out arbitrary enforcement. I also believe that our Checks and Balance system (part of Due Process) is currently broken

pigpag 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Given the astronomically high legal cost to individuals, the sheer presence of arbitrary enforcement can already cause a lot of fear and damage.

3eb7988a1663 7 hours ago | parent [-]

There was a recent high profile of a case where a woman in Tennessee was accused of a crime in North Dakota. She spent months in jail, where she lost her car, home, and her dog. She was not even in the right state, and her life was destroyed.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47563384

_DeadFred_ 5 hours ago | parent [-]

And this is the norm that prosecutors/defense attorneys have been OK with. It's just in this case AI added enough of a twist to gain public interest.

It's like the sudden concern with shipping ICE detainees to play 'jurisdiction' and 'standing' games. This has been going on forever and isn't novel, it's just suddenly defense attorneys care because of the immigration/deportation angle instead of just someone losing their home, job, car, life.

Our system of 'checks and balances' doesn't work when prosecutors/defense attorneys are indifferent to this kind of life destroying consequence simply from an accusation. If they are apathetic to this, what other injustices in the judicial system are all of the lawyers apathetic to?

chneu 24 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Vague laws were/are a hallmark of racist American law enforcement. It's what the US has always done.

terbo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Reminds me of this:

"They devise laws that are broad and vague, but then they apply them like a scapel against those that they deem a threat" - William Dobson

firefax 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If laws are ambiguous, governments run the risk folks will conclude they'll get in trouble no matter how diligently they try to suss out the spirit of said laws.

When combined with a comical inability to secure government systems, it's honestly super cute that any federal agency thinks engaging in such dark patterns is in any way, shape, or form going to achieve their goals.

collingreen 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If the goal is chilling dissent, then it sounds like it would be working perfectly.

Your point only holds if the government is trying to act fairly on behalf of the people and actively uphold justice.

idle_zealot 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> If laws are ambiguous, governments run the risk folks will conclude they'll get in trouble no matter how diligently they try to suss out the spirit of said laws

Well, yeah, but that's the goal. People will correctly conclude that their ability to act unmolested is entirely contingent upon remaining in the good graces of local and remote authority figures. This produces extreme chilling on dissent or disagreement and promotes deals, bribes, and bootlicking. The law is transformed into a transparent legitimization mechanism for what the powerful wanted to do anyway, applied and ignored according to the real power structure adjacent to the legal bureaucracy. This is the default state of human civilization when the rule of law is not proactively defended.

firefax 8 hours ago | parent [-]

But to "chill dissent", you must be capable of tracking it down before it hangs you from a gas station. I don't think you're fully grasping how sudden and forceful change could come if just small number of folks decided to stop giving a fuck about the spirit of the law and do whatever they feel they can get away with.

In my experience, folks from a legal/court context who think they can get cute playing the "you can't prove I broke the rules" game will literally void their bowels in fear when the same is done to them by just one skilled hacker, let alone a group of them all focused on a singular task.

thwarted 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

being specific is the essence of lawmaking and the whole difference between having a Congress and having a mom

~ P. J. O'Rourke, "Parliament of Whores"

JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For whatever it’s worth, I don’t think these rules would stand under the APA. Which means any criminal convictions would be thrown out.

digitalPhonix 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Losing your licence and many fines are FAA administrative processes so they don’t care. No courts involved.

mathisfun123 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Which means any criminal convictions would be thrown out.

and in the meantime people rot in jail but i guess no harm no foul :shrug:

ternaryoperator 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not to mention the monetary costs of defense

defrost 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Against all that it seems miserly to complain about the costs of destroyed, seized, lost drones, equipment, gates, doors et al that will never be reimbursed.

JumpCrisscross 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> in the meantime people rot in jail but i guess no harm no foul

Nobody claimed no foul. Constraining a problem isn't the same as saying it's not one.

duxup 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Heck if they do tell you, ICE swaps plates and tries to hide in various ways.

The evidence could be just some regular looking vehicle you can't find anything about and it's just "trust me bro those were feds" and you're out of luck.

helterskelter 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Up next, secret interpretations of laws to do things with zero accountability or public overaight. Oh wait we already have that.

throwaway85825 8 hours ago | parent [-]

And have had that for a while.

solid_fuel 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Before you know it, they'll be detaining people without legal representation, shipping them to overseas black sites, and murdering citizens in the street. Oh, wait that's been the entirety of this treasonous administration.

t-3 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> Oh, wait that's been the entirety of this treasonous administration.

That's been the case for at least 25 years. Still bad, but not new or unique to Trump. I'm too young to have a good idea of what the pre-Patriot Act American military/intelligence/secret police was like, but the historical stuff that comes to light from time to time doesn't lend much confidence that they were all that much better - they just did it illegally and ashamedly whereas now it's quasi-legal and fully acceptable.

solid_fuel 5 hours ago | parent [-]

"The authoritarianism is getting worse and more accepted" is not a great response here.

atoav 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Congratulations you found the key to fascism: Create vague laws that could apply to anyone, then you can pick the people who broke it. Of course you try to only pick your enemies.

Only: the person in charge of that decision is the meanest, most stupid idiot you have ever met and they envy you for your wife and want to live in your house once you have been dispossessed.

The brother of my grandfather was in jail in Germany during WWII because he offended the original Nazis. He said what roughly translates to: "Nazis are all just dumb plebs." And the thing is, he was right.

Artoooooor 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Couldn't it be used to identify/track the ICE vehicles? Observe where drones suddenly become enclosed in a no-fly zone (do I understand correctly that operators get notification that they should land immediately)?

stavros 8 hours ago | parent [-]

The problem (which I've had happen) is that a no-fly zone suddenly popping up might prevent your drone from coming back to you.

Not that a government that just pops up no-fly zones would care about your drone, but just saying.

jagged-chisel 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Are you suggesting that the system is efficient enough, and the users of it are competent enough, that a live moving no-fly zone would be placed somewhere that a drone in the immediate vicinity would be informed and be disabled?

I have my doubts. I would guess one "popping up" would at least be delayed such that it's pretty pointless by the time the drones are notified. Annoying indeed, useful (even to the ne'er-do-wells trying to enforce this crazy stuff) not so much.

stavros 8 hours ago | parent [-]

DJI has (or, at least, had, a few years ago) a no-fly system that was updated via the Internet. Maybe it's not live, but then what would be the point of these no-fly zones? Just so ICE agents can shoot your drone down with impunity? If they didn't need license to execute people in the streets, I don't see why they'd need license to shoot down a drone.

tamimio 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the order extended no-fly zones to ground vehicles belonging to the Department of Homeland Security. Even while the vehicles were in motion. Even if they were unmarked. And even if their routes had not been announced.

I want to know the genius who wrote this, and the mastermind who approved it.

nkrisc 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Whoever it was knew exactly what they were doing, and it was intentional.

crooked-v 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Or in other words: the cruelty is the point.

solid_fuel 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is exactly how corrupt, authoritarian governments have always operated.

fluoridation 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do no-fly zones extend indefinitely upwards? If so, can you build a no-fly wall out of cars?

michaelt 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The federal government doesn't need a row of cars to make a no-fly wall.

As we learned in El Paso in February, if the federal government wants a no fly zone, it can just create one.

fluoridation 7 hours ago | parent [-]

But if the no-fly zones are arbitrarily mobile, the drivers can create a no-fly wall without intervention from the federal government.

kccqzy 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The article states 1,000 vertical feet. Obviously this is targeting small drones and not commercial aircraft or even general aviation.

lenerdenator 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Someone who doesn't get that we're supposed to have a representative government with enumerated powers in this country.

Or maybe they do get that, but find it incredibly inconvenient to their own aspirations.

gsibble 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Get this bullshit political hit piece off my feed.

chneu 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

"Muh safe space! My privilege! My entitlement! Won't anyone think of me?! The victim here is me!"

catcowcostume 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you feel hurt when reality exposes the nonsense of your almighty dictator?

manishsharan 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is not your feed.

I appreciate the fact that HN does not have personalized echo chamber aka feeds.

Government overreach is a concern for a lot of HNers; hence this was voted up.

tantalor 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is shit writing.

> On April 15, the FAA removed the no-fly zones by replacing the sweeping flight restrictions...

This should have been in the FIRST paragraph, not 24th.

You can give me all the background you want AFTER you tell me the most important point.

miltonlost 8 hours ago | parent [-]

In no way is that the most important point of the article, especially when you are cherrypicking that sentence and deleting part of it and still don't include how the updated guideline is still ambiguous. You are the "shit writer" here and commenter.

"On April 15, the FAA removed the no-fly zones by replacing the sweeping flight restrictions with a “national security advisory” titled NOTAM FDC 6/2824. The revised notice dropped all mentions of flight restrictions and criminal charges. It instead “advised” drone pilots to avoid flying near “covered mobile assets” belonging to the Department of Homeland Security and several other federal agencies."

"The new FAA advisory wording is “a lot better than it was,” but it still comes off as “too ambiguous,” according to Moss at the Drone Service Providers Alliance. He suggested that the Department of Homeland Security could handle any potential drone concerns rather than making it an FAA issue."

defrost 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> You are the "shit writer" here and commenter.

Your comment is just as good w/out this. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html )