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himata4113 5 hours ago

Florida and most dry / sunny states having little to no solar panels is pretty damn wild.

I know in florida you have janky laws stopping you, but below 10kw it's still relatively easy.

I have a friend who installed <10kw of solar panels and they're now 97% off-grid in hot, wet florida weather with an old low-seer AC, single-pane windows and poor roof insulation which is roughly 60% of the energy usage.

The reason they got it is actually not to save money or anything, but to have power when grid goes down after hurricanes.

parpfish 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Don’t underestimate how politicized renewables have become. You’d think essentially free energy would sell itself, but any time solar comes up in a rural community there’s a whole host of bad faith “but what about x?” comments

kilroy123 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe, but the data speaks for itself. Texas, a huge oil state, is loaded with wind and solar and is leading the country in battery storage right now.

rconti an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Texas looks _almost_ as underserved by solar as AZ/NM in that map, TBH.

tadfisher 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

AZ/NM have highly concentrated populations, so I would expect to see only a couple of hexagons over Phoenix and Albuquerque. Texas looking like that is pretty bad, but I suspect this has more to do with the data set.

I would expect Texans to independently go for solar, given the... complications of their power market.

cogman10 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Idaho is as well.

AZ just has some of the dumbest rules in the US WRT to solar. It's a state where every home should have solar panels.

peterlada an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Lot of people died for that pragmatism. Froze to death in the outages of winter storms or overheated in the summer ones. Sustainability was the last resort.

himata4113 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I do have a funny story to share for this specific case:

A landowner wanted to run power to their land, they got quoted 100k and possibly 250k to run less than 2 miles of powerlines.

The land owner fired back with the question of installing solar panels instead as it would be cheaper and free.

The representitive replied with: "Look around you, there's no solar panels because they don't work."

Less than 100k later, the landowner had full off-grid power via solar and a backup generator.

I guess at the end of the day they saw all the sunshine around them and said: "You're right, all that sun is mine and mine alone."

enraged_camel 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>> You’d think essentially free energy would sell itself

I think it would if it was indeed “essentially free”. Rooftop solar is unfortunately a racket though, and companies price-gouge like crazy and also collude to keep prices inflated.

pjc50 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

American solar installer companies do seem to charge way more than European or British ones. I got 3.9kW installed almost ten years ago for just £5500, including all the paperwork for feed-in-tariffs. It has long since paid for itself just in subsidy, let alone actual consumption.

jeffbee 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In general, contractor overhead in America is obscene, compared to Europe. We have a lot of regularly capture working to keep it that way, too.

bredren 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I am counting on physical, semi technical contract work to pay once SWE opportunities shrink to the point where it’s not worth it anymore.

Now is the time to get handy if not already. Robotics /physical automation will lag info by a good stretch.

atourgates 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

DIY is viable if you're a bit nutters (like me).

I just paid ~$35k (pre-now-expired-tax-break) to install a grid-tied 25kw ground mount system. I DIY'd everything except the connection between the array and the grid, which I paid an electrician to do, and the trenching which I paid my buddy with a mini-excavator to do.

It was a bit of a PITA, but mostly because I didn't finally make up my mind to do it until October and had to have it constructed by Dec 31st to take advantage of the expiring tax credit. If I'd given myself 6 months, it would have still been a big project, but way less stressful.

My neighbor's paid the same price to a contractor for a 11kw system.

Even at 46°N, and with relatively cheap electricity, my system should pay for itself in 6-8 years.

cuttothechase an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Do you have a blog or a writeup about this?

What would have been the cost if it was not DIY'd? Is this doable only in a rural/semi-urban settings?

jeffbee 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Being an honorary or actual redneck in an exurban American setting will be the sweet spot for this. Your neighbor's rusting Bobcat is not useless after all. You have the space for ground mounting. I toyed with a rooftop solar DIY project with an electrician handling the AC side, but in my urban context PG&E wanted a six-figure fee for a subterranean transformer upgrade. In 2024 the state regulator established rules that PG&E can't charge for that kind of service upgrade so maybe I should start considering it again.

scottyah 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It all comes back to insurance- they're used to getting crazy sums of money because nobody questions the rates

jauntywundrkind 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We looked at trying to get some mini-split heat pumps for my mom's place & were getting quotes $30k figures for two modest units (it's a tiny well insulated house). I don't know what the frak is wrong with this nation; this is so fantastically worrying.

rootusrootus an hour ago | parent | next [-]

HVAC is wildly variable, even more so than other trades in my experience. Get several quotes, there will be five digit differences between the top and bottom.

projektfu an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Try looking up HVAC workers on thumbtack.

danans 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> American solar installer companies do seem to charge way more than European or British ones

One of the reasons for this is that in many parts of the US, solar has sadly been market segmented as a luxury product, just like other high efficiency products like heat pumps or EVs.

This is enabled by both the prevailing cultural attitudes about efficiency and renewables as indulgences for the better off, and industries that are happy to keep captive high margin markets of those customers, i.e. the continued lack of a US produced low-cost EV.

The American cult of individualism is also at play, wherein collective solutions are shunned vs private ones, which is why renewables and storage are so popular among off grid libertarian types.

CalRobert 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One of the things I like most about balcony solar is that you can DIY it (at least, in the places I know that have approved it) instead of getting scammed.

chung8123 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are so many scams in the solar industry. I feel like a ton of installers joined just to make a quick buck with no effort.

twoodfin 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This tends to happen when a lot of government “free money” is on the table.

See also: War profiteering.

unethical_ban 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure it isn't up front, and there's probably something to be said about scammers seeing green with subsidy money.

But the very idea of not being dependent on the grid or fossil fuels, if one can afford it and costs are comparable, should sell itself.

But my dad watches Fox News so he brings up lies like how bad wind turbines are for the environment (coal anyone?) or how we shouldn't make ourselves dependent on China for solar (as if we aren't dependent on a lot of bad hombres for our current energy mix or as if receiving solar makes us dependent at all).

---

Edit: HN's conversation throttler childishly patronized me for "posting too fast". At least do me the honor of telling me you don't like what I'm saying, instead of telling me I'm posting too quickly when I'm making 1 message/hour.

---

In response to dataflow below:

It still reveals an ignorant cult-like derision for renewables that isn't explained by reality. The people who gleefully mock the issues with renewables do it because they have been trained to want renewables to fail, and to see active support for renewables as a signal for softness and liberalism.

parpfish 3 hours ago | parent [-]

My local town Facebook group gleefully mocks local solar each time it snows/is cloudy, as if. There’s never been anything (eg, a war in the Mideast) that could disrupting fossil fuels pricing and availability…

dataflow 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> My local town Facebook group gleefully mocks local solar each time it snows/is cloudy, as if. There’s never been anything (eg, a war in the Mideast) that could disrupting fossil fuels pricing and availability…

Your counterargument is even worse than theirs. The predictability, frequency, severity, mitigability, etc. of these are extremely different.

kaibee 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> predictability

I'm giving this one to renewables.

> frequency

I guess technically the weather is probably bad for solar or wind more often than geopolitical disturbances to the oil market but, if we go by when its bad for solar _AND_ wind, I feel like I'd need to see the data.

> severity

Tied, maybe? Depends if we're including like, the 70s and if we're looking at just from a US standpoint or if we're including Europe.

> mitigability

I feel lot more confident in my ability to add more panels than to negotiate reopening the Strait of Hormuz.

downrightmike 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Fossil Fuel is disposable energy, like dixie cups, use once and then throw it away. Renewables are reusable energy, day after day.

Also oil and gas tankers move at about the same speed of someone riding a bike, across the ocean, taking nearly 2 months to cross. Its insane the amount of time and resources wasted like that.

otterpro 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In Florida, the irony is that hurricane is the reason for not having too many solar panels. For example, Miami-Dade county requires commercial solar panel installation to have hurricane-approved solar mounts, which can withstand up to 160mph+ winds. This means installation is very costly. Even for homes, many insurance company will not insure homes with roof solar panel because of hurricane.

himata4113 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That's a requirement for everything, not just solar panels. The price premium for it is not that big since that's the only type of mounts you can get in florida. All modern housing is mostly category 5 rated due to the fact that hurricane damage grows exponentially as it picks up mass.

nick_ 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Do they build a lot of cinder block homes with flat, tarred roofs?

balderdash 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I could have sworn that FL was like top five in solar production.

Edit : it is! It’s 3rd https://seia.org/solar-state-by-state/

the_sleaze_ 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In Alabama regulatory capture is such that installing solar panels attached to the grid incurs fees higher than just buying the electricity from Alabama Power.

chung8123 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Why not install and not attach to the grid? My understanding is if you have them attached to batteries and not feeding back it is considered off grid in some places.

jeffbee 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't know anything about Alabama but in California you generally can't create off-grid developments without permission from a local authority, because it's a recognized problem that "off-grid" systems are often under specified, leading to danger for the occupants. And nobody really wants off-grid to proliferate because it would tend to concentrate the costs of the grid upon the remaining users who will be the ones least able to afford it.

For a place that was two miles from a power line, I would think anyone would approve of off-grid.

wing-_-nuts 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm interested to read a source on this if you have it

HoldOnAMinute an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hawaii is the one I don't get. Every building there should be festooned with panels. They have the best opportunity to be a world leader in electrification.

Instead they import bunker fuel. The tankers dock at the power station, which then burns it, to power the island.

vondur 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I know California has reduced the incentives to purchase solar panels. You have to also have a battery backup system which increases the costs considerably. I'm guessing we may have too much solar in the day and not enough storage for the energy created.

Haemm0r 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The battery increases the upfront cost but also increases the roi very much (at least where I am living). You get way less money for feeding energy to the grid than you have to pay for withdrawing energy(as you said some utilities even limit/forbid feeding during peak hours). In my case that means (Austria): Sell 1 kWh - 0,04€ Buy 1 kWh - 0,25€

vondur 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Oh yeah, it's just the initial cost goes up and the payoff time becomes longer. And you were one of the people who had installed solar panels, the rewards for it are reduced.

Haemm0r 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Wrong, payoff time will be shorter. Why: During the next few years energy suppliers will "force" people, who feed energy to the grid into flexible pricing, so the reward for producing will be less and less ( current flexible prices https://markt.apg.at/en/transparency/cross-border-exchange/d... ) and the incentive for having a battery is getting stronger. For my situation that means almost zero energy costs from March to October. Even in December and January it covers 30-50% of the total energy demand (heat pump).

alternatex 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Don't you have to replace the batteries every few years though? That should be factored in the equation.

anon7000 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Modern lithium batteries can last decades! LFP batteries can take thousands of discharges cycles, and most systems wouldn’t be designed to fully drain the batteries anyways (keeping them at more optimal levels of charge to maintain capacity).

solar systems don’t require that much ongoing maintenance. There just aren’t many consumable components. (And battery recycling is getting better by the year)

fredophile 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You have to replace everything you own on some cadence. Eventually I'll need to replace the battery on my solar system. I'll also need to replace the panels at some point and even the roof the system is installed on.

My solar system uses a Tesla powerwall. I'd expect its real world performance over time to be about the same as what you see in batteries for Tesla vehicles.

danaw 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

most batteries can last 10+ years

applied_heat 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A partly cloudy or partly sunny day produces some insane changes in output without a battery system to smooth them out

There is a limit to the size of the instantaneous increases and decreases in generation that the other generators on the grid can compensate for

dzonga 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I have said it before in another comment - on a related post.

It's wild that Southern US which gets most of the sun - has relatively little solar compared to the North - which gets less sun days - but has more solar.

the damage politics has done to the US is crazy n sad.

rendang 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Sunbelt states are mostly pretty high

https://www.chooseenergy.com/solar-energy/solar-energy-produ...

rootusrootus an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Optimistically, I would expect to see more panels in raw numbers up north due to necessarily overbuilding the capacity to account for fewer sun-hours per year.

rconti an hour ago | parent [-]

Well also the desert southwest is still relatively sparsely populated, so rooftop solar won't show up as much on a map like this. Plus their power is cheap(er) than CA.

But yeah, you'd expect some bigger utility-scale installations.