| ▲ | yubblegum 7 hours ago |
| I fear that outside of cataclysmic global warfare or some sort of butlerian jihad (which amounts to the same) this genie is not going back into the bottle. This tech is 100% aligned with the goals of the 0.001% that own and control it, and almost all of the negatives cited by Kyle and likeminded (such as myself) are in fact positives for them in context of massive population reduction to eliminate "useless eaters" and technological societal control over the "NPCs" of the world that remain since they will likely be programmed by their peered AI that will do the thinking for them. So what to do entirely depends on whether you feel we are responsible to the future generations or not. If the answer is no, then what to do is scoped to the personal concerns. If yes, we need a revolution and it needs to be global. |
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| ▲ | ernst_klim 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > to eliminate "useless eaters" It can't. It can't even deal with emails without randomly deleting your email folder [1]. Saying that it can make decisions and replace humans is akin of saying that random number generator can make decisions and can replace people. It's just an automation tool, and just like all automation tools before it it will create more jobs than destroy. All the CEOs' talks about labor replacement are a fuss, a pile of lies to justify layoffs and worsening financial situation. [1] https://www.pcmag.com/news/meta-security-researchers-opencla... |
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| ▲ | MarcelOlsz 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | People have this misconception that first it was one way, and then <tech was released>, and they'll wake up and suddenly it is another. It's a slow creep. 10 years ago there were 5 of us on a team each responsible for something specific. Now I can do all of that. Teams and companies will downsize. How do you see AI creating more jobs? (I need some hope right now lol). | | |
| ▲ | mplanchard 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | My hope is that there is a sort of Cambrian explosion of small software projects built by people who have absolutely no clue what they're doing. Many such projects will go nowhere, but some percentage of them will see success and growth. My second hope is that there will always come some threshold of complexity beyond which AI cannot effectively iterate on a project without (at minimum) the prompting of an expert in the field. The combination of these two things could lead to a situation where there is a massive, startup-dominated market for engineers who can take projects from 0.5 to 1, as well as for consulting companies or services that help founders to do the same. Another pair of hopes is that a) the LLM systems plateau at a level where any use on complex or important projects requires expert knowledge and prompting, and b) that because of this, the hype of using them to replace engineers dies down. This would hopefully lead to a situation where they are treated like any other tool in our toolbox. Then, just like no one forces me to use emacs or vim (despite the fact that they unambiguously help me to be at least 2x more productive), no one will force me to use LLMs just for the sake of it. | |
| ▲ | treis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's made it cheaper to do whatever it is you did therefore the demand for it will go up. It's somewhat of an open question of where the new equilibrium is. Historically that can go either way. We have fewer farmers that we once did because there's a limit to how much food people will eat. But we probably don't have fewer carpenters as a result of power saws and nail guns. We probably have more because the demand to build things out of wood is effectively unbound. | |
| ▲ | wilsonnb3 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Massive job loss from AI requires one of two things: actual human-equivalent AGI or no increase in demand. Focusing on option 2 and software development, teams and companies will only downsize if the demand for software doesn’t increase. Make the same amount of stuff you do now but with less people. What I think will happen is that enough companies will choose to do things that they couldn’t afford or weren’t possible without AI (and new companies will be created to do the same) to offset the ones that choose to cut costs and actually increase the amount of people making software. I am pretty sure these are well known economic ideas but I don’t know the specific terminology for it. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are more options: Mass unemployment, consolidation of all AI-related benefits in the hands of a few, an increase in demand that doesn't outpaced the loss of employment, increase in capabilities (not AGI) that mean a few chosen people can do most things without hiring other people, etc. |
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| ▲ | nradov 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A few hundred years ago it took a team of 5 plus draft animals plough a field. Now one guy with a tractor can do it. Some teams and companies will downsize. New companies will appear doing things that we can't even imagine yet. | | |
| ▲ | drivebyhooting 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Are SWEs the farmers of the draft animals in this analogy? | | | |
| ▲ | bluefirebrand 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > New companies will appear doing things that we can't even imagine yet. I read this take a lot but I don't buy it. This isn't guaranteed by any means. And even if it does happen, isn't it just as likely that AI is deployed into those companies too and they don't actually result in any job growth? | | |
| ▲ | nradov 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | You don't need to buy it. There are no guarantees in life. Get comfortable with being uncomfortable. | | |
| ▲ | lazyasciiart 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This comment equates to saying “I don’t care what you think”, and is a perfect example of something that is literally never justified to say on a forum where you have no requirement to interact with them. If you don’t care what individual people think then simply don’t talk to them. | |
| ▲ | the_af 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's not the rebuke you think it is. You made a claim (not original, I've read it before), someone expressed doubts about your claim (which if proven false, will have dire consequences) and you cannot wave it off with "there are no guarantees in life". Sorry, you made a claim, there's good reason to believe your claim may not pan out, and if it doesn't the consequences are dire. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't think it's a rebuke. I'm just explaining the reality of the situation. | | |
| ▲ | bluefirebrand 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You said > New companies will appear doing things that we can't even imagine yet I have a really big imagination, so I will believe it when I see it. If you have any real idea what these new companies might be doing in the future then I'm all ears. But until then maybe stop trying to claim some kind of future knowledge based on some handwaved nonsense like "we can't even imagine what the future will look like" And then trying to claim that's "the reality of the situation", please be serious Edit: Maybe if you think the future is so unimaginable, you should take a look around at the present. Can you identify anything in our lives today that was not imagined by anyone in the past? Think about how every piece of technology ever made nowadays, someone can say "it's like the Torment Nexus from Famous Piece of Literature!" |
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| ▲ | MisterTea 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > It can't. It can't even deal with emails without randomly deleting your email folder [1]. And early cars were expensive, dangerous, highly unreliable, uncomfortable, belched foul exhaust, and required knowledge of how to drive AND maintain them. We are far, far from that scenario these days. | | |
| ▲ | fl4regun 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's not proof that it will ever do those things in the future either, however. | | |
| ▲ | MisterTea a minute ago | parent [-] | | We have no proof what it will do in the future. I'm just maintaining the car analogy theme. |
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| ▲ | the_af 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It can't. It can't even deal with emails without randomly deleting your email folder [1]. Saying that it can make decisions and replace humans is akin of saying that random number generator can make decisions and can replace people. I don't think the comment you're replying to is saying that an evil AI bot will kill people. They are saying something along the lines of: mass job loss doesn't bother the AI companies because in the AI-powered future they envision, population reduction is a positive side effect. |
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| ▲ | geremiiah 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > This tech is 100% aligned with the goals of the 0.001% that own and control it If AI is smart enough to replace the 99.999% it's also smart enough to replace the 0.001%. |
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| ▲ | layer8 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That fact doesn’t prevent the 0.001% from continuing to control it. | | |
| ▲ | geremiiah 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Point is, if an AGI becomes powerful and capable enough of replacing 99.999% of humanity, the likes of Sam Altman and Elon Musk won't be able to control it. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | An electrician with access to a circuit breaker will be able to control it. | | |
| ▲ | geremiiah 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The AI would have redundancy, both in terms of its power source and also because it can literally replicate itself and have multiple instances running all over the world.
Also, an army of drones that you'd have to dodge just to go anywhere near any critical infrastructure. | |
| ▲ | defterGoose 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's only a little bit comforting that computers still live in meatspace when you consider something like an AI-controlled Metal Gear roaming around though. | |
| ▲ | pomian an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | 2001 Space Odyssey presents a different scenario | | |
| ▲ | layer8 an hour ago | parent [-] | | It does exactly present that scenario, as Dave Bowman gains access to the circuit breaker (well, to the memory banks). |
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| ▲ | acdha 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, but that isn’t the question as long as those wealthy people control most of the system: companies aren’t going to lose executives, they’ll shed the jobs which they don’t respect. Someone wealthy does not need to accept a bad deal to avoid sleeping on thr street. It’s everyone who isn’t insulated who has to actually compete for work. | | |
| ▲ | geremiiah 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Besides the argument above, that an AGI powerful enough to replace 99.999% of humanity won't be controllable, there's also the economic argument: corporations, executives, all that means nothing if 99.999% are unemployed. Our economy is based on consumerism which will obviously cease to happen in a scenario where 99.999% of humanity is unemployed. The economic system would be so upended that ownership and such notions would become immaterial. | | |
| ▲ | acdha an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I would worry that it won’t go quickly to 99.999% but instead would grind down different groups of people slowly enough that they’d be able to entrench their power: being a cop will be a growth job, people would be given state-sanctioned automation-resistant work like picking crops as a condition of receiving social benefits, the Republicans would more seriously dust off the previously-fringe proposals to restrict voting to property owners again, etc. Setting people against each other is a time honored way for a small elite to control a large population. | |
| ▲ | caconym_ an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | If we meet in the post-apocalyptic wasteland, but I have an android slave with a gun and you have nothing but a rusty spoon, it's going to be pretty clear who the android belongs to, and who it serves. The android also makes it likely that I will have a bunch of other nice stuff that you don't. Food and water, for instance. This scenario is not meant to be taken literally. |
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| ▲ | yubblegum 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I have given this serious thought over the years. I even have an unfinished novel exactly around that topic. Energy. The key is controlling their access to energy. | |
| ▲ | archagon 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The 0.001% has a controlling stake in AI, so they're in the clear. The 99.999% needs to assert their controlling stake in the technology. I don't know what this looks like. Maybe ubiquitous unionizing, coupled with a fully public and openly-trained LLM. | | | |
| ▲ | worace 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | IMO this is a common trap. Certainly there's no boundary of cognitive capability that separates capitalist elites from those below them in terms of an AI's ability to outperform them. But that doesn't really matter when we talk about "replacement" because these people don't "do" they simply "own". They're not concerned about being outpaced at some skill they perform in exchange for money...they just need the productive output of their capital invested in servers/models/etc to go up. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not about capability. It's about who "holds the key". And sure, many currently with deep pockets and pushing for AI will miscalculate and get pushed by the wayside. I think many people who are not in the 0.001% are miscalculating right now in HN. What's important is that ultimately some small subset owns this, and it doesn't matter how smart they are, only that they own the thing and that it cannot be employed against them (because they hold the key). |
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| ▲ | bauerd 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No because the technology will be used against you. |
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| ▲ | repelsteeltje 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm tempted to (bitterly) point out that feeling responsible for future generations was already off the table decades ago when we decided to ignore our ecological footprints. |
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| ▲ | mrdependable 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It would be difficult, but not necessarily THAT difficult. With enough pushback from the public, AI would start getting regulated in meaningful ways. The problem is too many people love it, and see no problem with it. Because the momentum and money is on their side, it feels like it is impossible. Maybe things will turn out fine and we will just live in a similar but more depressing future, but if the pro-AI crowd gets bit and changes sides that could be a turning point. |
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| ▲ | tim333 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The article skips the potential upsides of an AI future - like curing diseases, abundance, merge type immortality. I'm keen myself with nothing to do with the goals of the 0.001% really. I think the future generations will like the above and look back on now like we look back at medieval dentistary. |
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| ▲ | nradov 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I have nothing against AI as a technology but the notion of it "curing diseases" is so silly. The limiting factors are largely in fundamental biology research and then human clinical trials. There is no plausible way that LLMs will make those activities 10× faster or cheaper. Hard work still has to be done in the messy real world outside of computers. | | |
| ▲ | tim333 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Re. disease cures I am hoping more for AlphaFold type stuff and simulating cells in silico rather than ChatGPT type LLMs. There is some progress like >“There are people sitting in our office in King’s Cross, London, working, and collaborating with AI to design drugs for cancer. “That’s happening right now.” https://www.htworld.co.uk/news/research-news/isomorphic-labs... and >...enables researchers to move seamlessly from AI-generated sequences to functional antibodies in just days https://the-decoder.com/googles-ai-drug-discovery-spinoff-is... | |
| ▲ | californical 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But what if we could predict which treatments would be most successful with ~70% accuracy? It would potentially speed up the feedback loops right? There may also be downsides, like skipping testing things that would enhance our fundamental understanding of something because the AI was wrong. But that’s already a problem , and having a better gauge in the early stages could be really helpful | | |
| ▲ | nradov 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | What if I could flap my arms and fly to the moon? You haven't presented any scientific evidence that LLMs will enable such prediction accuracy. It's pure speculation and hope. Some smaller, incremental improvements to optimize research workflows are much more likely. | | |
| ▲ | mckn1ght an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | What is your opinion on AlphaFold? Doesn’t that provide a speedup for one part of medication development and understanding disease? | |
| ▲ | californical 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’m not saying that they will, but that investing in advancements to AI overall could do that. Not making predictions that they will, just trying to give an example of a benefit that we may get out of this |
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| ▲ | Glemllksdf 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | LLMs help already a lot because plenty of normal people do not have programming skills. Evaluating test results is a lot harder if you do not know how to program or how to use a computer. But LLMs compute requirement is so high that it pushes the boundaries of compute, memory and memory bandwidth which is fundamental for curing diseases. LLMs math / neural networks can and are used for medical research. Simulating a whole body with proteins, cells etc. will bring us the breakthrough we need. Nothing in modern medicin research is withoout compute. AlphaFold def helps researchers around the globe. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | More accurate biological simulations could help but there is zero reason to expect that LLMs will be an effective platform for such simulations. That's pure speculation and probably wrong. | | |
| ▲ | Glemllksdf 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Im not betting on LLMs for this, i'm betting on the LLM Compute infrastructure which is the same for simulations. |
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| ▲ | mrdependable 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Those upsides are currently just a fantasy and ignore the very real current downsides. They also do not in any way rely on AI to become a reality. |
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| ▲ | underlipton 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Gonna beat this drum till it breaks: General strike and bank runs.
Not to collapse the economic system, but to present a credible threat of collapsing the economic system which AI development, as these elite and their platforms know it, relies on. When they're freaking out, we call for negotiations.This only works if people with "secure" livelihoods not just participate, but drive the effort. Getting paid six figures or more in a layoff-proof position? Cool, you need to be the first person walking out the door on May 1st (or whenever this happens), and the first person at the bank counter requesting your max withdrawal. |
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| ▲ | nradov 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You're free to take a vacation or quit working if you want to. Go ahead. As for bank runs, no one cares. The big banks no longer need retail customer deposits as a source of capital for fractional reserve lending. Modern bank funding mechanisms are more sophisticated than that. | | |
| ▲ | underlipton 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_Silicon_Valley_Ban... In which the FDIC took unprecedented action, drawing down the DIF to backstop depositors beyond the insured $250k and offering a credit facility to other banks, in order to prevent "contagion" - a panic, a bank run - which was presumed to be likely after the 3rd largest bank collapse in US history. A bank almost no one outside of California had heard of before it died. Bank runs are serious business, and far from being something "no one cares" about, even just talking about them makes banks nervous, because they can happen to even "healthy" banks. The big banks have been undercapitalized for more than a decade, and even a moderate run on a regional institution threatens the entire system. Which is why it should be done, or at least signaled as incoming; it's good leverage. >You're free to take a vacation or quit working if you want to. Go ahead.
The implicit, "I'll stay here, where I'm nice and secure," is delusion. People care about your outcomes even if you don't care about ours. Take the invitation to organize with others to secure your own future, to show just how much you're needed before your employer decides that you're not (however erroneously). | | |
| ▲ | nradov 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | You really missed the point. SVB was undone by their own failure to manage interest rate risk, and then by the actions of corporate depositors. Retail banking customers had little to do with it. Corporations certainly aren't going to participate in some sort of pointless consumer protest. | | |
| ▲ | underlipton 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's a liquidity problem. Retail absolutely can drop any given bank into a liquidity crunch by pulling out too many funds, too quickly. It doesn't even need to put a given bank at risk of insolvency, if the situation is read as widespread and/or growing, because as the event expands, so does the likelihood that someone else is mismanaging their books. Someone who is hooked into another institution, and another, and another. Contagion. Anyway, corporate depositors have a duty to safeguard their capital. That means that if a bank run is underway by retail depositors, they're in line too, willing participants or not. This is why, again, even discussion of bank runs is discouraged, and their likelihood and effectiveness downplayed. They're built on turning the imperative of self-interest, which the financial industry is built on, on its head. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Nope, you're still missing the point. SVB had a solvency problem, not just a liquidity problem. And some silly consumer protest withdrawals will never be able to cause a liquidity problem for any bank that matters. |
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| ▲ | yubblegum 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Geopolitical realities and considerations require that the effort is synchronized and global. Assume great power X's society revolts and decides to reign in the financial and technological barons and lords, and do away with such things. Meanwhile, great powers Y, Z etc. are not doing this and one day people in X will wake up to AI drone swarms of these powers taking them over and they're back to square 1 and now not even a great power. Collective humanity needs to think this matter through and take global action. This is the only way I fear, short of natural calamities (act of God) that unplugs humanity from advanced tech for a few generations again. | |
| ▲ | Ifkaluva 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > layoff-proof position What? I don’t know anybody who has a layoff-proof position. | | |
| ▲ | underlipton 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Should have been in quotes. People who think that they're secure (they're not). |
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