| ▲ | ericmay 8 hours ago |
| Oman isn’t the only country in the region, and any country should expect their ships to sail peacefully. Last I checked it’s the US and Israel at war with Iran, not others - no justification for charging transit fees. Second, you’re ignoring decades of history and picking an arbitrary point to say that’s when some animosity started. Nobody forced Iran to build all these missiles and to try and build a nuclear weapon or kill their own people or fund actual terrorist groups as designated by the United States and European Union. If you drag out negotiations long enough you never get bombed! What a thought lol. |
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| ▲ | modo_mario 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| >and any country should expect their ships to sail peacefully Tbf the US seized plenty of theirs, others and such. >Last I checked it’s the US and Israel at war with Iran, not others The US bases and provided landing spots and ports, etc kind of speak otherwise and they don't have other ways of getting money from the US I believe. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Nobody forced Iran to build all these missiles and to try and build a nuclear weapon or kill their own people or fund actual terrorist groups as designated by the United States and European Union Iran has absolutely run its strategy as a basket case. But proxies aside (which is a big aside), they were fairly self contained until we started hitting them. At least this time around. |
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| ▲ | Cyph0n 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Fairly self contained is an understatement. They proved time and again over the course of the past few years that they were not only pragmatic, but also a much more rational actor than Israel and the US. | | |
| ▲ | oa335 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Iran is liked about as much as the US and certainly more than Israel. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/iran/america-has-lost-arab-wo... Iran has fomented discord in a number of countries, most notably Syria and Lebanon. I think they are “rational” in the sense that they are pursuing their goals of eliminating US influence over the Middle East - but many other states in the MidEast would see that goal as “irrational” in itself. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > They proved time and again over the course of the past few years that they were not only pragmatic, but also a much more rational actor than Israel and the US When? When they drip fed Hezbollah's missiles into Israel's air defences? When they left their ships in port to get bombed? When they convened an in-person meeting at the Supreme Leader's residence? When they didn't even reprimand Hamas after October 7th? Iran has acted according to its regime's interests. But I wouldn't say they prosecuted their goals rationally, pragmatically or even particularly effectively. | | |
| ▲ | kaveh_h 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Who directly in this war has conducted them rationally at at all times? Did Iran drip feed missiles to Hezbollah and Yemen, perhaps. That sort of tactic was used at a much larger scale when US provided arms to Iraq against Iran in their war in the 80s. Israel attacks against it’s neighbors and caused mass refugee flows is also mostly a result of UK, US and France’s foreign policy in the early 20th century when Israel was being established. Israel funded by US of 300 billion dollars is also a kind of proxy. It’s hard for most people to have actual objective views and see things from multiple perspectives and your statement is showing clear bias in this regards. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Who directly in this war has conducted them rationally at at all times? At all times? Nobody. Until last summer, the most strategically buggered was Hamas. Their miscalculations directly lead to a weaker position and a negative return on their goals. That changed following last year’s airstrikes—then it was Iran. (Though in relative terms, probably still Hamas.) Since this war, it’s might be the U.S. > That sort of tactic was used at a much larger scale when US provided arms to Iraq against Iran We didn’t maintain Iraqi arms as a deterrent against Iran. Drip feeding arms into a war of attrition to be a pest has strategic rationale. Drip feeding arms, arms meant to intimidate through the prospect of overwhelming force no less, into air defenses below replacement rates is just dumb. |
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| ▲ | Cyph0n 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | lolcopedope 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | mamonster 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Nobody forced Iran to build all these missiles Saddam did. Their missile program is a direct response to the section of the Iran-Iraq war where Saddam flew long range bombers for terror raids (hmm who does this remind me of?) and Iran had no answer beyond shelling border cities with 155m. | |
| ▲ | yellowapple 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > But proxies aside (which is a big aside), they were fairly self contained until we started hitting them. That “big aside” is an understatement, on par with ”but CIA-funded death squads aside the US has been pretty hands-off with Latin America”. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh absolutely. But being an idiot with proxies isn't really reason to threaten total war. You go after the proxies and maybe hit ports and production facilities in Iran that arm them. Then commit to keep doing that every time the proxies act up. Nobody needs to liberate Lebanon or Yemen. And nobody needs to try and change the regime in Tehran. |
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| ▲ | Cyph0n 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| First, look at a map. The strait is entirely contained by Omani and Iranian waters. Second, I don't have much else to say to you if you actually think that assassinating a head of state in the middle of active negotiations is anything but vile & uncivilized behavior unbecoming of a "civilized" superpower. Ultimately, this is going to be a major strategic loss for the US and Israel. They have achieved none of the goals stated at the outset of this "operation", outside of perhaps diminishing the Iranian missile manufacturing capabilities & stockpile. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > First, look at a map. The strait is entirely contained by Omani and Iranian waters The UAE has a stake, too. > don't have much else to say to you if you actually think that assassinating a head of state in the middle of active negotiations is anything but vile & uncivilized behavior unbecoming of a "civilized" superpower This statement weakens your argument. (It's also not in line with this forum's guidleines around arguing in good faith.) | | |
| ▲ | Cyph0n 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am not talking about stakes; I am talking about
territory. Uh if you say so. Can you point me to the rule stating that I need to keep engaging in a discussion I am not interested in having? | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I am talking about territory Yeah. As you suggested, "look at a map." The UAE controls most of the Musandam Peninsula. > that I need to keep engaging You don't. But you also don't need to storm off. |
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| ▲ | ericmay 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | amluto 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > bombs work and settle the issue If you want evidence that bombs do not settle the issue, you can consider the current Iran war. The US and Israel have dropped a rather impressive number of bombs on Iran. As far as I know, most of them worked. But whatever issue the leaders of the US and Israel thought they were going to settle is most definitely not settled. The regime has changed from Ayatollah Khamenei to Khamenei, the US’s military position is dramatically worsened, and, while Iran has a lot of rebuilding to do, they are arguably in a strategically stronger position than they were before. Maybe you think Iran’s continued existence “can’t happen period”, but Iran still exists and the US’s ability to anything about it is very much in doubt. | |
| ▲ | dante54 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is very rich given that the US, is the only country to use nukes, and Israel has illegal nukes and wont even accept inspection. Nobody charged anyone to cross a strait until your pedophile leaders decided to kill a head of state and bomb a school full of children | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Israel has illegal nukes They aren't illegal. The nuclear non proliferation treaty is an optional treaty. The nukes are only illegal if you sign it. Israel hasn't. Most countries sign the treaty because it comes with a lot of benefits, but you don't have to take the carrot. | | |
| ▲ | adrian_b 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Therefore Iran and North Korea and any others have the right to make nukes. USA has lost long ago the moral authority to demand from others to not make nuclear weapons. USA were supposed to be the "good guys", who will not abuse their monopoly on having the most advanced weapons, so that the weaker countries should feel safe enough that they do not need such weapons themselves and that they should respect the non proliferation principles. However, with all the unprovoked wars started by USA during the last quarter of century, which have caused not only huge damages to the attacked countries, leaving them in a much worse state than before, but which have also irreparably destroyed important parts of the cultural heritage of the entire humanity, nobody can believe any more that it is fine to be helpless against USA, by not having nuclear weapons. Nobody has done more against the non-proliferation treaty than USA. | | |
| ▲ | herewulf an hour ago | parent [-] | | Exactly. 39 days (so far) of bombing will only convince Iran and other countries around the world of why they need to obtain nuclear weapons at any cost. It is existential. This current US administration is incredibly shortsighted. | | |
| ▲ | lostlogin an hour ago | parent [-] | | Being shortsighted implies you aren’t looking that far ahead. Even the shortsighted could see that the straits would get closed. |
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| ▲ | nixon_why69 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I guess Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Iraq, and Qatar don’t exist lol All of those countries except Iraq facilitated this war, the weapon launches were overwhelmingly from land bases on their territory. If they want to talk with Iran about discounts for expelling american airbases, I'm sure they could find an audience. | |
| ▲ | 8note 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | they can destroy whatever they want, but are unwilling to move ships in, and unwilling to put boots on the ground. if the US/israel believed their own propaganda, they'd be doing both of those things. | |
| ▲ | lostlogin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > US and Israel don’t go around just announcing everything they’re doing. They don’t need propaganda Why does Trump talk so much then? It would be lovely if stopped. | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I guess Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Iraq, and Qatar don’t exist lol. They’re not just attacking ships in one tiny area - ships have to pass through bidirectionally which affects trade for everyone. Stop trying to defend this stuff. You must have a real problem with the concept of the Panama Canal. | | |
| ▲ | ericmay 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | The Panama Canal is a man-made construct and costs money to operate. How is that comparable? | | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's comparable in that it's a nearly-identical construct that functions in an actually-identical way. Constructing the Strait of Hormuz was cheaper than constructing the Panama Canal.† That doesn't change anything about the fact that it exists. † Cheaper in an abstract sense. In a more literal sense, the tolling authority, Panama, didn't have to pay for the canal; it was built by the United States. | | |
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| ▲ | FpUser 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >"Nobody forced Iran to build all these missiles and to try and build a nuclear weapon or kill their own people or fund actual terrorist groups" Sounds exactly like the US with the exception that they prefer to kill other people, not their own. |
