| ▲ | eek2121 4 hours ago |
| I see a ton of bickering, however, I simply have to ask the question: how can anyone justify the United States of America and Israel attacking ANY country? It isn't our job, nor is it Israel's, to try and be the world police. People are dying, and because of a certain corpse-to-be controlling MY country, the world is beginning to suffer and it is going to get so much worse. Some economists are saying gas rationing will begin happening within the next 9-15 months. Iran has NO incentive to be diplomatic. On top of that, invisible damage that nobody is reporting about is being done...damage that could last years or possibly decades to very small, yet super important parts of the world supply chain that powers everything from fertilizer to pharmaceuticals. There is not a single person in the world that should be supporting this war. I don't care what your beliefs are. The results WILL affect you, and you won't get a bailout. |
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| ▲ | roncesvalles an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| If you're asking in good faith, Israel isn't attacking Iran to play world police. Israel has been under constant attack from Iran-backed proxies. As for why Iran backs these proxies, the answer boils down to pure fanaticism. For a fanatic-led state to possess nukes is a dangerous situation and it's worth it for Israel to try and prevent it. As for why America is involved in a conflict between Israel and Iran, it's because we have a Republican administration and a big segment of Republicans (Christian Evangelicals) want the US to ensure Israel as a state survives (also for purely fanatical reasons). |
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| ▲ | budududuroiu 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > For a fanatic-led state to possess nukes is a dangerous situation and it may be worth it to try and prevent it. So, when are we bombing Israel to prevent the world being held hostage by nuke-wielding religious fanatics? |
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| ▲ | miketery 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is the flag of the Houthis [1], they are sponsored by Iran, as are the likes of Hezbollah, and Hamas. They have similar language in their charters. How is that not casus belli? 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarkha |
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| ▲ | culi 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | US first started bombing Yemen in 2002. That flag was adopted by Yemen in 2014 | |
| ▲ | shevy-java 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why would that be any casus belli? | | |
| ▲ | miketery 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Do you think threats and missiles from an adversary are insufficient cause for war? | | |
| ▲ | asdff 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes. They didn't attack the US. We attacked them with no casus belli. Operation Epstein Fuckup. | | |
| ▲ | dlubarov an hour ago | parent [-] | | Article 51 recognizes states' rights to individual or collective self-defense. Israel has a plausible self-defense claim based on the Iranian regime's proxy attacks against it, and its explicit mission of destroying it. If we accept that premise, then by extension Israel's allies also have a right to act in its defense. There could also be separate arguments that the Iranian plot to assassinate Trump gives the US casus belli. |
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| ▲ | UncleOxidant 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > gas rationing will begin happening within the next 9-15 months It really depends where in the world you are. There are places that will begin rationing in the next few weeks if not sooner. |
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| ▲ | hereme888 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Clueless? Iran has been attacking many countries, including US and Israel, for 47 years. It's not a secret. |
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| ▲ | orf 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Out of interest, what sequence of actions by which country in particular led to the modern Iranian regime? | |
| ▲ | culi 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Iran has actually never directly killed any US citizens. This misconception arises because its allies in Lebanon have done so. But the US and Israel were occupying the bottom third of Lebanon so I would hardly call that an attack. There was also the hostage crisis but that was done by student protestors rather than the Iranian government. | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Clueless? The US has been interfering in Iran (stuff like removing democratically elected prime minister) since 1953, at least. | | |
| ▲ | hereme888 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The 1953 coup was ugly realpolitik, but the Islamic Republic's hostility began in 1979 (hostage crisis, embassy takeover, fatwas against the West). Iran has been the initiator of most modern conflict. | | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | So you don't think 1953 had anything to do with 1979? It just kind of happened out of the blue? | | |
| ▲ | hereme888 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It contributed, but downright accusing the US for 1979 ignores Iranian agency, the Shah's own policy failures, economic/social pressures, and the ideological revolutionaries. | | |
| ▲ | jm4 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you need to learn more about the history of U.S./Iran relations over the past 75 years. There was a pretty good episode of NPR Throughline a couple weeks back that gets into the CIA bullshit and then 1979 onwards. Iran has not been a good actor, but we aren’t exactly saints either. It’s an ugly situation all around. | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sure, and how did they get the Shah, again? You're maybe starting to get closer to enlightenment. | | |
| ▲ | hereme888 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ok, the Shah didn’t just randomly happen. The U.S. and U.K. helped put him back in power, so American interference is part of the chain that led to 1979... apparently largely due to geopolitical and crude oil reasons.... huh. Enlightened. |
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| ▲ | shevy-java 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is pretty obvious that the current war was started by Israel and USA. I somewhat understand Israel's agenda and objective, even if evil and selfish depending on the point of view (or selfish, for Netanyahu to avoid legal scrutiny while acting as prime minister). I don't understand the USA attacking here at all. With rising prices I think Trump should pay compensation to the rest of the world for his decision here. This is now similar to the build-up to Vietnam though - I don't see Trump being able to withdraw, without looking incompetent, so he is now committed to the war, similar to why Putin can not stop his invasion of Ukraine. Two criminals, one thought. | | |
| ▲ | hereme888 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | 60% enriched uranium for radical Islamists who supply terrorists throughout the world and want to eradicate the US? A terrorist regime that wants to nuke one of the closest US allies... The white house staff have been pretty clear and consistent in the reasons. | |
| ▲ | mhb 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is not obvious at all unless you don't understand Iran's objectives and its attacks on Israel (a country over 1,000 miles away) for the past several decades. |
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| ▲ | anonymou2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
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| ▲ | mhb 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| It is justified based on the attacked country's avowal of Death to America and its demonstrated and long term efforts to obtain nuclear weapons capable of reaching the US and its European allies. |
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| ▲ | hajile an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | List the number of attacks on America by Iran. Now list the number of attacks from our "allies" like the Saudis or Israel. Words don't matter as much as actions and the biggest attacks on the US by countries in the ME were done by Israel and Saudi Arabia. | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Saying "Death to America" doesn't give us the right to bomb them. They've been saying that for a long time now and yet haven't posed serious threat to the US mainland. Trump says a lot of crazy shit as well, would that give other countries the right to bomb the US? | | |
| ▲ | mahirsaid 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I wonder why they're saying that?. | | | |
| ▲ | mhb 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Don't be intentionally obtuse. They've been saying this for over four decades and have spent at least tens of billions of dollars in their quest to make it happen. Besides attacking Israel. | | |
| ▲ | dlev_pika 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Can’t be a surprise to anyone that is even superficially familiar with Iran-US relationships, prior to the Ayatollah’s return in the 70s | | |
| ▲ | mhb 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | So when you ask the IRGC and the ayatollahs why they hate the US, Israel, and the West, they say it's because of history from 1957? I'm thinking it has more to do with their interpretation of their religion. | | |
| ▲ | dlev_pika 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You remember Qasim Solemani? The guy Trump bragged on national television about how he blew up? That guy collaborated with US forces, led a 2001 uprising against the Taliban in Herat, effectively liberating the town before US army had to make contact with the enemy. Do you understand what leading a local uprising against the Taliban in 2001 meant? Iran was the first ME country to sympathize and hold candle vigils after the fucking Saudi’s (the guys Trump rolls out the red carpet for, btw) blew up the towers, things were ready to normalize - and then Bush says they are part of the axis of evil with Iraq (which Iranians had a war shortly before that) and North Korea. Iraquís started chanting “death to America” after we murdered 1 million of their fellow citizens. They hate us not only because they are religious freaks, but also because we fuck with their country non-stop. We just go around blowing shit up, or enforcing regime change (Iran-Contra?). It’s unsurprising lots of them hate our guts - I would too. Ps. LATAM is the same, btw - we fucked with their governments non-stop, the only ones that like us are the rich fucks that want to use the military to further amass fortunes. |
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| ▲ | asdff 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If they were serious they could have you know actually done something to the US all this time. Like closing this straight. Or at the very least extorting it. | | | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Saying things and even spending to try to make it happen doesn't mean they were even close to being able to actually do it. Under Obama we had an agreement which had rigorous inspection details to prevent them developing nuclear weapons. Trump tore that all up in his first term. | | |
| ▲ | mhb 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They were violating the agreement. That is why it was torn up. Why is the burden on us to disprove what they tell us they want to do and are taking actions to accomplish? When someone says they're trying to kill you and is actively working to make that happen, it is prudent to believe them. | | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Be afraid, be very afraid. As an aside: Iran is one of the youngest nations on earth. The government threatening is one thing. Most of the younger Iranians were sympathetic to the West. It was only a matter of time before the regime would be gone or at least soften. But when you bomb a country that generally tends to cause a rally-round-the flag effect (see Britain in WWII, for example). So we've probably blown our chance at rapprochement for quite a while. The regime can tell it's citizens "see, we warned you about America, the Great Satan! " | | |
| ▲ | mhb 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | This talk of the "rally-round-the-flag" effect is uninformed speculation since very little is exiting the country. Would they also have rallied around the flag if these same actions were taken when the initial protests occurred? It's not at all clear that the Iranians would ever be able to throw off their tyrannical government without outside help. There is no rapprochement with people whose goal is to kill you and who don't mind so much if they die while trying. | | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well, there certainly isn't any chance if you assume that everyone in Iran wants to kill you. But when you realize that it's only a small minority of people who were saying this then you start to ask: what about the majority of the people who were either sympathetic to the West or even just apathetic? Their government saying "Death to America" is like Trump saying "We're going to bomb them back to the stone age!" - most of us don't agree with Trump and we don't want any part of "bombing them back to the stone age". Same in Iran: most Iranians didn't agree with "death to America". But when you give them reason to agree with that sentiment it makes it harder for anything to actually change. | | |
| ▲ | mhb 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Their government saying "Death to America" is like Trump saying "We're going to bomb them back to the stone age!" The only way these things are alike is not useful. It's true that they both said things. But everyone understands that, even though Trump is a reckless idiot, he is saying bellicose things during a military offensive; not that he plans to annihilate Iran with nuclear weapons. The people in charge of Iran who are acquiring nuclear weapons actually intend to use them. Besides the nuclear weapons, the quantity of conventional weapons they are stockpiling is an existential threat to Israel. I'm going to give the Iranians credit for understanding that the intention of the US is to mitigate the threat that its autocracy poses to other countries. But it doesn't really matter. They can't be allowed to develop nuclear weapons or pose an existential threat to Israel. Neither of those aims was going to be accomplished waiting for some sort of sea change effected by an unarmed citizenry oppressed by a ruthless regime. |
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| ▲ | asdff 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Pakistan has nukes already. They hate Israel. They harbored bin laden. Somehow we don't care about any of that. They just got a slap on the wrist I guess. Iran gets the beating stick though. | | |
| ▲ | mhb an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yes, puzzling. What might the difference be? Oh, Pakistan isn't devoted to "Death to America" and they're not actually firing rockets at Israel and killing Israelis. |
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| ▲ | dlev_pika 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | mhb 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes. So weird that the prime minister of a country would prefer to see the attacks against the country stopped. And that that aspiration would be shared by the country's ally. | | |
| ▲ | dlev_pika 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m still trying to understand how Oct 7 happened, across what is probably one of most closely monitored borders in the world. It just doesn’t make any sense, from the guys that had Hezbollah using their explosive pagers for years. |
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| ▲ | miketery 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Right someone saying they want to kill you and building an arsenal is not sufficient, the missiles have to be flying towards you, you have to let them pull the trigger before you can respond. |
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| ▲ | jiggawatts 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t know why you’re being voted down for stating plain facts. If you know someone in town that regularly threatens you and your friends with death[1] and you see them buying a gun, you do something about it before they also get the bullets. Before replying please read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_latency Iran has been steadily decreasing their “breakout time” to levels that Israel and the US considered unacceptable. Timelines too short to police with diplomacy. They forced the hand of the Western world, they and their supporters are crying crocodile tears. “We were just innocently enriching near weapons grade Uranium in underground facilities hardened against attack and inspection! Calm down bro!” [1] To stretch the analogy further: they regularly hand out knives to their cousins, all of whom have stabbed your friend in a dark alley once or twice, to the point that your friend has to wear body armor at all times. |
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