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JohnnyLarue 15 hours ago

Experts agree that this number is a vast, vast undercount.

dikozaken 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

[flagged]

qubidt 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

yeah I'm sure all those children were "terrorists". what a ghoulish thing to say

93po 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

haght 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

austin-cheney 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If any of that were true why does Israel forbid foreign journalists from reporting facts on the ground? Why did they kill more journalists than all prior conflicts in human history?

dlubarov 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's more or less the same with any modern military. Ukraine for example doesn't allow journalists (foreign or not) in the more dangerous areas near front lines, with rare exceptions for journalists that they invite and escort.

It's perfectly reasonable to not want unrestricted journalists leaking information about military assets, or possibly getting themselves killed. Most people seem to understand (or at least not care) when Ukraine imposes press restrictions. The question should be, why are people suddenly outraged when Israel does roughly the same thing?

austin-cheney 5 hours ago | parent [-]

That is not the same. When the US invaded Iraq there were over 3000 journalists in Iraq. None of them were in firing zones to be used as human shields. That said, there are still journalists operating in Ukraine even today.

How many journalists does Israel allow in Gaza, anywhere in Gaza? The answer is 0. Worse still is that they appear to directly target journalists for elimination, as became evident when they shot a rocket at a building stairwell that contained only journalists trying to transmit video and then shot a second rocket at the exact same location shortly after to kill any first responders. The entire event, both rocket attacks, was caught on video that made it out of the enclave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Nasser_Hospital_strikes

dlubarov 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Iraq isn't the most useful comparison because it wasn't feasible for the US to fully control access; determined journalists could find ways into the warzone. They still tried to encourage embedded journalists, who they could protect and also censor, so that they weren't tweeting photos showing artillery locations or what not.

There are journalists operating in Ukraine, but they're either

- embedded/escorted (IDF did a bit of that also)

- in safe ("green") areas far away from fighting (Gaza is too small to really have those; Ukraine is ~1650x larger)

- or just ignoring the laws, and illegally reporting from dangerous yellow or red zones

haght 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

what is the source for your journalist claim?

also, i repeat, i hate Israel, but look at it from their point of view.

any coverage of the conflict looks bad for israel, because they are the strong side here. it is plain simple, that people always side with the weak in most cases. so imagine, a journalist enters gaza, sees how everything is destroyed, how poor the people look. of course your avarage joe will see this think that it is bad. and it doesn't matter that hamas is basically behind all this. and that nothing would have happened if hamas didn't attack israel. and hamas know all of this, so they station people and ammunition at schools and hospitals, because its a win-win. If israel doesn't strike, than good and they have ammunition, and if israel does strike, than also good, because media will see it, and scream how bad is israel. See how human cost doesn't matter here? Israel prioritises its own people, so hamas should do the same, and stop putting civilians in danger. Remember, hamas started it by attacking israel, and did not finish it when they had the chance. Everything could have finished much and much faster, if they just released the hostages.

you can see the same thing with ukraine. At first, ukraine appeared weak, so everyone was siding with it. but now, when ukraine shows that they are strong, people on the internet look horrified how russian soldiers are annihilated with fpv drones and scream about how such things are war crimes and should be stopped.

benterix 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> ow, when ukraine shows that they are strong, people on the internet look horrified how russian soldiers are annihilated with fpv drones and scream about how such things are war crimes and should be stopped.

Sorry who are those people and where I can find them? In my bubble Ukraine is still the victim who lost 20% of its land, and Russians are still bombing the country daily, both military and civilian targets. All male Ukrainians are basically prisoners in their own country who can only pray they don't die soon.

austin-cheney 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_...

https://www.ifj.org/war-in-gaza

AlotOfReading 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

    Israel prioritises its own people, so hamas should do the same...
Last I checked, the Israeli government opposed a two-state solution. That means Palestinians are Israel's people.
polotics 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hamas as financed, and helped grow, and fostered as an entity, and rid of its more middle-of-the-road competitors, by two you-know-who parties in this farcical tragedy, parties that comically keep identifying themselves as one another's mortal enemy... glad I never set foot in that madhouse in 20 year and most likely won't ever again.

throwaw12 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> they are a civilised western country

Not sure if I understand it correctly, are you saying:

1. western countries bomb civilians, kill them, put them in jail without court, have ethnonationalistic racist state where some races has more rights and others have less, steal land from others, bomb neighbours because someone is hiding there, ignite wars, lobby/bribe powerful country politicians to reach their own goals

or

2. are you saying Israel didn't commit any of this?

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Not sure if I understand it correctly, are you saying: 1. western countries bomb civilians, kill them, put them in jail without court, have ethnonationalistic racist state where some races has more rights and others have less, steal land from others, bomb neighbours because someone is hiding there, ignite wars, lobby/bribe powerful country politicians to reach their own goals

Sir, have you read about Western countries' imperial and colonial past, even over the last century alone? What about just the last 2 years, as they stood by Israel in every meaningful way while from time to time 'expressing concern' and issuing statements that 'international law must be respected' as the hypocrites that they are? The original commenter was correct: Israel fits right in.

I understand that appealing to myths of noble intentions of western populations is ultimately a good thing if it gets them to act more like it, but a part of me can't resist pointing out that it's just a myth and it's never been anything other than 'might makes right'. I agree with your goal, just please don't frame it as if western countries are these beacons of morality when they're anything but.

haght 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Israel doesn't target civilicans specifically, but they don't really care about coladeral damage. i don't see any problem with this

what do you mean "put in jail without court"? give me examples

whaat is the problem with having an ethnonationalistic racist state? and also, arabs have the same rights as jews in israel, because israel is a civilised western country where the law has power.

>lobby/bribe powerful country politicians to reach their own goals yes, they do this. and who is to blame? you, who elected the said politicians, and allowed it to happen, or israel, that utilized its power to achieve its goals? i don't support israel lobbying, and i wish it didn't happen, but everyone is so easyly fooled, and it is so obvious, that we can no longer say it's israels fault. it's the west who has to do something about it.

> 2. are you saying Israel didn't commit any of this? some of the things they didn't comming, some things that did commit and it is not a problem as you present it, and some things they did comming, which indeed as a problem. but there's no perfect state.

i hate israel, but definitely not because it bombs hamas terrorists.

blks 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That number is just recovered dead bodies. There are people in the rubbles, still, there are people who died or will die from accompanying factors - such as mass evacuation, living for years in a horrible camp, hunger, diseases, destruction of hospitals and infrastructure that otherwise would kept those people alive.

And Israel definitely conducts very questionable actions, similar to genocide, such as withholding any humanitarian aid for months, and them distributing it only through one controlled organisation, that distributed it in just a few spots, with machine guns pointed at people. Thats one of the main reasons Netanyahu is wanted by ICC.

This is all not mentioning actions in the West Bank, where settlers with army support drive people away from their homes, destroy and take over the land. This is not what a “civilised” nation does.

dlubarov 9 hours ago | parent [-]

> That number is just recovered dead bodies.

Well, it's certainly not limited to bodies that were confirmed by officials in a hospital or morgue. A lot of the casualty reports were from a Google form, or later, a self-hosted form (https://sehatty.ps/moh-registration/public/add-order).

cogman10 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Well, it's certainly not limited to bodies that were confirmed by officials in a hospital or morgue. A lot of the casualty reports were from a Google form, or later, a self-hosted form

Yes it is. Literally on that form "Not registered with the Palestinian Ministry of Health". This is a form to report missing people, the number of the dead are people identified by a doctor.

Though that number has stagnated because all the hospitals have been destroyed by Israel.

dlubarov 2 hours ago | parent [-]

No, that's just saying that the form is for reporting casualties that are not already registered with the MoH.

Hamas' casualty numbers came from hospitals and morgues only in the first few months of war; that hasn't been the case for a long time. This isn't controversial - Hamas has been fairly open about incorporating "reliable media sources".

I think only Hamas knows the breakdown for their latest numbers, but earlier they used to acknowledge how many casualty reports were based on online form submissions. For example you can see some old data in Figure 11b here: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/sites/default/files/pdf/...

cogman10 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Sorry, I'm not going to take seriously a report by an AIPAC funded institution from a guy who's basically spent all of Israel's genocide talking about how fake the Hamas numbers are.

Basically all his reports have one narrative "It's not that bad, and actually it is all terrorists that Israel has killed".

NGOs that have managed to get aid workers and doctors in (which, btw, are often killed by Israel) all say that the death toll is a massive undercount. [1]

There, of course, is a solution here. It's for Israel to let in aid works and stop killing them [2]

[1] https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240711-more-than-1...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_paramedic_massacre

dlubarov an hour ago | parent [-]

Again this isn't controversial; you're denying something that Hamas themselves acknowledge.

Sky News: "A total of 6,187 deaths had been confirmed via the online form as of 6 August." https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-conflict-thousands-remain-un...

AP: "As Gaza’s hospital system collapsed in December and January, the ministry began relying on hard-to-verify “media reports” to register new deaths. Its March report included 531 individuals who were counted twice, and many deaths were self-reported by families, instead of health officials." https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-cas...

Hamas themselves: https://t.me/s/MOHMediaGaza?before=6390

replooda 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> they are a civilised western country,

"Civilization" measured by prisoners sodomized with cutting objects or starved to death? And where does "country" give place to illegal occupation?

> who does not commit genocides for the sake of it.

But because God supposedly told them so, which should bring comfort to every "Amalek" out there.

kdheiwns 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Many of the worst genocides in history were by "civilized western countries". Just look at what happened in the Americas (many native ethnic groups are now entirely extinct), in the Congo, Ireland, British oppression and famines in India, and so on and so forth.

Nearly every genocide starts with "we're civilized. That means we're doing the right thing. Some casualties are unavoidable" When someone thinks like that, you know they're doing the wrong thing. You know you cannot trust them. You cannot reason with them because they refuse to see their actions objectively and have ceased to see others as equal to themselves.

kraf 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sources can be found here. I was actually surprised myself how damning this looks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

haght 10 hours ago | parent [-]

wikipedia, lol