| ▲ | qingcharles 3 hours ago |
| This is one of the rare problems where there exists no good solution to the issue. Even without taking transfem athletes into consideration, there still remains a problem for women's sports in that sex (not gender) is not fully black and white, male and female, and some high-performing female athletes show signs of intersex, which has caused this entire hysteria about checking for penises. How do you ever come up with a sane way to deal with this? (apart from events that are genderless like shooting) Then we have sports that needn't be gendered because of physical differences, but are anyway, e.g. esports. |
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| ▲ | scoofy 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The issue is that “woman’s sports” is itself intentionally discriminatory. That the issue of discrimination comes up is to be expected. The idea of competitive sports exists in a framework of discrimination means that you will always have unhappy people. The good news is that sports, for the most part, is mostly symbolic, and rarely affects ones livelihood. |
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| ▲ | bluescrn 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > The issue is that “woman’s sports” is itself intentionally discriminatory. Just about anything competitive is discriminatory. People are disadvantaged by genetics, disability/health issues, age, wealth inequality, and more. But as a society we love competitive activities, so the best we can do is come up with rules to try and impose a reasonable amount of fairness. | |
| ▲ | TurdF3rguson 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Assuming you have already procured food and shelter, everything important in your life is symbolic. | | |
| ▲ | scoofy 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Right, which is why civil rights laws tend to be about employment and housing. |
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| ▲ | TimorousBestie 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Unfortunately pointless, mostly symbolic things attract the most hysterical reactions from people. | | |
| ▲ | peyton 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Five billion people followed the Paris Olympics. It’s actually kind of important. | | |
| ▲ | squigz 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | How do you even measure that at that scale? I'm sure I would be counted among that 5 billion, yet my "following" was searching medal counts every couple days to see how poorly my country was doing, yet I would never describe it as "important" to me in any way. | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > and some high-performing female athletes show signs of intersex, which has caused this entire hysteria about checking for penises. This is a gross (literally) misunderstanding of the entire topic The ruling covers a lot of the nuanced cases, including rare DSDs that may never even apply to Olympic athletes The tests DO NOT check for genitals, and that is irrelevant to the decisions! It's a cheek swab that checks genetics. |
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| ▲ | grogg 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Seems to me like the obvious answer is to categorize these events by weight division rather than gender, but this will never be considered because the hysteria is the point. |
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| ▲ | dpark 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You might want to look at strength standards for women and men at the same weight. https://exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards Weight classes are a great thing in some sports. They do not solve for the discrepancies between women and men, though. | |
| ▲ | pmontra 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Fighting sports are divided by weight (boxing, judo, etc) but no woman would even be close to winning in the same weight category of men, so we will never see a woman in those sports at the Olympics or anywhere it matters. And who would pick a woman to play in a team of volleyball, basketball, soccer? I think that historically the only sport in which men and women are absolutely equal is shooting. Maybe curling but it's usually the man that sweeps the ice (a little bit of extra strength.) | | | |
| ▲ | servo_sausage 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Doesn't really work, men are stronger than women at the same weight... And that's at the peak of fitness; lower level competitions with juniors or not optimallyfit people exaggerate the strength difference. | |
| ▲ | WillPostForFood 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Explain how you'd do basketball? Marathons? Maybe it isn't obvious, but weight isn't the main difference between men and women, nor is it necessarily an advantage in different sports. |
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| ▲ | txrx0000 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The solution is to develop relative skill rating systems like Elo. |
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| ▲ | dpd_dpd 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No, the solution is to exclude male advantage from the female competition via evidence-based analysis, as the IOC's new policy does. | | |
| ▲ | txrx0000 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Grouping based on skill would achieve what you describe and then some. It would eliminate every kind of advantage, not just sex-based advantage. | | |
| ▲ | bluescrn 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sport does that already. The Olympics is the very top skill tier. So you're just suggesting making everything mixed-sex, and having very few women at the Olympics? | | |
| ▲ | txrx0000 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > So you're just suggesting making everything mixed-sex, and having very few women at the Olympics? Yeah. It would work like video game rankings. Top-ranked players are top-ranked because of skill, and if they happen to be mostly men for most games, so be it. But I get your point. The crux of the problem is most people don't want to see skill-based matchmaking. They want to see the best man, the best woman, or the best disabled person, etc. The categories are already defined in people's minds as cultural constants. The trans people don't like this because they feel excluded by both male and female categories, so they argue in bad faith that there's no physical difference between females and trans-females or males and trans-males. Our long-term options as a society are to either 1) change culture so that people get used to skill-based matchmaking like in video games, or 2) ignore trans people and wait for this issue to disappear when future tech allows a man to transfer his consciousness into a female body and vice versa. Since 2) is quite far out technologically, I propose 1). |
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| ▲ | ordersofmag 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not sure how this helps. Olympic events already have relative rating systems that ranks all the participant: pretty complicated and sport dependent systems that determine qualification for the games and competition amongst all the competitors at the games. The problem how to have separate competitions for different groups of participants when there isn't a universally shared agreement on who should be in which group. | | |
| ▲ | txrx0000 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If you have a relative skill rating system, then there's no need to split competitors into groups. But if you insist, then you can split them based on skill ratings (define a rating range for beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc). And for games with one-on-one matchups, sampling from a gaussian centered on each player's skill rating is good enough. | | |
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| ▲ | dangus 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It seems like we are creatively bankrupt if we can’t think of any solution. I think many of us could think of a good solution in literally seconds. And there’s a really good argument that a solution isn’t actually needed. Does the NBA need a solution for Steph Curry being the best 3 point shooter of all time and dominating his competition? Did the NFL need a solution for Tom Brady winning the Super Bowl 30% of the seasons he played in his career? Did Ohio high school basketball need a solution for LeBron James only losing 6 games in his entire high school career? Athletes dominating their league happens all the time without the issue of transgender and intersex players. If there is some kind of mass influx of men playing women’s sports to win easy championships that’s when we can deal with the problem. But as of now there is no such problem on any kind of significant scale. E.g. there has never been a time when washed up NBA player that decided to try and join the WNBA. We don’t need to solve problems that do not yet exist. But let’s say we have to solve this problem to make everyone shut up about it. Here’s one I just thought of off the top of my head: Anyone who performs at a level of play at an abnormally high gap between themselves and their competition (a set statistical percentage better) can be forced to seek a higher league of play if it exists and they are eligible if and only if other competitors in the league request they do so with a strong consensus. Is this a perfect solution? No, but I thought of it in literally ten seconds, it doesn’t even involve gender, and I didn’t resort to sitting on my hands and saying “aw shucks there’s no solution” or “I guess we’ll just have to ban trans people from sports. |
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| ▲ | mc32 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| One solution is to have more categories. Then people can compete in their relevant categories. |
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| ▲ | qingnonce 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | trhway 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >This is one of the rare problems where there exists no good solution to the issue. similar problem in boat races - different boats have different characteristics, thus PHRF rating. Not perfect, yet it works. The same thing i expect to happen with human sports too - analyze DNA, assign handicap score, and let everybody run. Of course that wouldn't work for say boxing or judo - though even here with time we can come up with exoskeletons (or some drugs) equalizing your DNA-based advantages/disadvantages. Or we can just have competitions in 3 categories - "only those assigned male at birth", "only those assigned female at birth", "anybody can choose to compete in that category". The 3rd category may just naturally become most competitive and interesting without any "males in female sports" issues we currently have. |