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| ▲ | Retric 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That subtilely implies it’s a decision to view oneself as a different gender from what was assigned at birth, but it’s not entirely clear it’s a choice in every case. Edge cases in biology get wild and sex assigned at birth can be a near arbitrary decision. Ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics) Parents making major medical decisions has a huge precedent in a wide range of procedures with significant risks and consequences. Separating conjoined twins for example. | | |
| ▲ | remarkEon 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | >from what was assigned at birth The passive voice language here is really bizarre. Who is doing the assigning? >Separating conjoined twins for example. This is not, in any way, comparable to a 12 year old taking medications that permanently sterilize them. | |
| ▲ | 4gotunameagain 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is entirely clear that it can be the case, as proven by the existence of people "detransitioning". It is also entirely clear that there have been parents (usually mothers) who wanted to have a trans child because it was cool. | | |
| ▲ | Retric 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is a logical flaw in suggesting that something that occurs with a small percentage of a population such as “detransitioning” implies anything about every member of a population. Child abuse exists, but doesn’t imply anything about every parent. | | |
| ▲ | blindriver 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > There is a logical flaw in suggesting that something that occurs with a small percentage of a population such as “detransitioning” implies anything about every member of a population. > Child abuse exists, but doesn’t imply anything about every parent. This is funny because that's the exact argument that transphobic opponents say about trans people themselves and the argument as to why gender fluidity or gender outside of sex doesn't exist. "Just because an extremely small number of people believe they are a different gender than their biological sex doesn't mean that gender is different from biological sex" is almost exactly the argument that transphobes use. |
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| ▲ | thrance 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So-called "detransitions" represent way less than 1% of the trans population. In particular, the proportion of people regretting their transitions is much smaller than that of mothers regretting having their kids. They receive massively inflated media attention because their stories are picked up and turned into propaganda in service of bigoted narratives. |
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| ▲ | skyyler 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Which is why puberty blockers are prescribed to transgender children, delaying puberty until later in life when a "good decision" can be made, usually closer to the mid to late teens. | | |
| ▲ | Aurornis 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Sadly, it's not possible to "delay puberty" until later in life without permanent consequences. Puberty cannot simply be resumed later. Puberty blockers alter hormones dramatically during critical growth phases. The changes can't be reversed later as if hormones were not altered during critical phases if the person changes their mind. | | |
| ▲ | delecti 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is absolutely possible, and it has been done in cisgender children with precocious puberty for decades. > Puberty blockers alter hormones dramatically during critical growth phases. Which is generally the goal. It is of course not possible to retroactively have allowed puberty to progress as though the blockers had never been taken, but it is possible to cease the blockers and allow it to resume, again, as is done for cisgender children who take them. It almost feels like you're arguing definitions. | | |
| ▲ | Aurornis 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > It is absolutely possible, and it has been done in cisgender children with precocious puberty for decades Precocious puberty is a condition in which puberty happens earlier than it's supposed to. The goal of puberty blockers in precocious puberty is to delay puberty until the correct age and physiological growth window. Puberty blocker in precocious puberty are also not used to induce hormonal profiles that are different than the body's eventual genetic set point, just to delay them until typical puberty ages. Delaying puberty until it aligns with the body's expected pubertal ages is completely different. You cannot extrapolate and claim this as evidence that we can safely delay puberty until adulthood, well beyond pubertal age. > but it is possible to cease the blockers and allow it to resume, again I don't understand what you're trying to claim, but ceasing the medications does not reverse the changes they made during critical teenage growth windows. | | |
| ▲ | space_fountain 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You're making scientific claims, but with the only evidence that I'm aware of contradicting the claim. The usual approach with puberty blockers is prescribing them around the onset of natural puberty and one way or another stopping them around the age of 16. While there are sadly some cases of people who started hormone therapies and later regretted it, I'm aware of no cases of long term health impacts that are attributed to delaying puberty until 16. If you do know of some reports please let me know. I asked Claude to see if it could find anything and the only reports it could find was some long term bone density issues, but only in trans women and it seemed potentially related to estrogen dosing | | |
| ▲ | Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You're making scientific claims, but with the only evidence that I'm aware of contradicting the claim. > I asked Claude... There are no double-blind studies, RCTs, or otherwise on this topic because it's not a situation that lends itself to that type of study. Please don't try to ask AI to summarize the situation because its training set is guaranteed to have far more discussion about it from Reddit and news articles than the limited scientific research Of the papers out there, many are either case reports or they're studies that look into the case where people go from puberty blocker therapy into gender-affirming care, not the cases where they change their mind and discontinue with hope of returning to their baseline state. Above I was addressing the implication that puberty blockers are a safe way to press pause on puberty until much later without consequence. That's simply not true. Those studies you found about bone density also note that they can reduce height, and along with it other growth changes that occur during those ages in conjunction with puberty. Someone who takes puberty blockers until 16-18 will have a different physical anatomy than someone who does not. You cannot resume growth in adulthood after discontinuing the medications. So the studies you found are consistent with what I'm saying: You cannot delay puberty without also impacting the growth that happens during that phase. That's one of the main reasons why people take the puberty blockers! As someone gets older, the window for that growth does not stay open forever. | | |
| ▲ | space_fountain 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not asking for a double blind study. I'm asking for examples of someone who took puberty blockers, regretted it and stopped, and then went on to not be able to live the life they wanted to live. I'm not aware of any such stories and I'm pretty familiarly with the population of people who regret taking hormones. When I double checked with Claude it also failed to find anything accept the issue around bone density I mentioned. There are plenty of studies that point to strong evidence that this protocol results in better mental health outcomes because for whatever potential consequence there is for delaying natural puberty, there are plenty of known irreversible impacts of allowing it to progress. If you have other evidence, even just observational studies it would be good to share that. And again the recommendation is to continue until 15 or 16, not until 18 |
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| ▲ | delecti 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's unclear what age puberty is "supposed to" happen. The age of onset of puberty has gotten substantially younger, even just over the past couple hundred years. If the "correct" age is what we see today, then there's thousands of generations of humans who had puberty naturally occur "too late" yet we're all still here to talk about it. If the "correct" age instead is when it used to occur, then everyone should go on puberty blockers for a few years to avoid this unnatural surge of precocious puberty. > I don't understand what you're trying to claim, but ceasing the medications does not reverse the changes they made during critical teenage growth windows. Puberty blockers do not themselves induce changes. They block hormones whose job is to trigger release of sex hormones which would induce changes. For young trans people, access to blockers can save them from a lifetime of dealing with the consequences of a puberty they did not want. Likewise, blockers can save a cisgender child from unwanted consequences of a puberty happening too early. That doesn't mean "until adulthood", it could just be a few years. But even then, I think blockers are a compromise to appease people who doubt the ability of trans kids to make their own decisions about their bodily autonomy. I think trans people should be able to go on cross-sex hormones basically at will, but certainly after no more than a cursory chat with a therapist. | | |
| ▲ | Aurornis 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > It's unclear what age puberty is "supposed to" happen. The age of onset of puberty has gotten substantially younger, even just over the past couple hundred years. The change over the past couple hundred years is measured on the order of a couple years at most. This has nothing at all to do with hormonal intervention until adult ages. Once someone reaches adulthood the window for a lot of changes has closed. > Puberty blockers do not themselves induce changes. They block hormones whose job is to trigger release of sex hormones which would induce changes. You're either not understanding, or trying to avoid an inconvenient point: Once blocked during critical periods, many of those changes simply cannot happen at a later date. Puberty cannot be delayed until adulthood and then resumed as if nothing happened. | | |
| ▲ | delecti 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I feel like you ignored my entire last paragraph. I don't know how to respond to this without just pasting it again. | | |
| ▲ | Aurornis 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I read it, but you keep moving the goalposts around so much and introducing irrelevant detours that I can't respond to everything you write, sorry. I've been consistent about my point, but you've introduced so many other topics including the "maybe it's only for a year or two" point that this is just one big gish gallop Your point about puberty happening earlier and earlier also contradicts your arguments about how it might only be for a year or two |
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| ▲ | simondotau 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But surely puberty, not just maturity, is necessary to fully understand the sexual experience and whether your feelings about yourself crystalise differently in the presence of sexual drive. Not to mention, the idea of delaying puberty seems like an invitation for unrelated and/or unforeseen downstream consequences on biological health. | | |
| ▲ | erxam 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is not. Precocious sexual drive is possibly amongst the worst things there is for gaining sexual maturity. Also known as 'thinking with your dick'. CSA aside, you can do a ton of damage to your life by just going along with your sexual drive. I am a virgin at 27 years old. What am I missing about the sexual experience? Is it somehow locked out to me? Or… can I access it intellectually, and reason about it with its ups and downs? There's a reason the consent age does not start at puberty. | | |
| ▲ | TimorousBestie 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m really scratching my head at the response to this one. Do people around here really believe consent should start at puberty? I’m aware that’s kind of a meme in certain highly religious and/or conservative communities but it’d be shocking if it were a mainstream position. |
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| ▲ | fourseventy 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | appreciatorBus 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yup. Absolutely insane that university "educated" people have been telling us that kids who believe in Santa Claus are capable of making decisions like this. | | |
| ▲ | Ralfp 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Have you considered that due to their education and research those people may know more on the subject than you do? Regret rates for transition remain notoriously low (within 2%) with main reasons for regret stated to be transitioning too late or environmental lack of acceptance or support. Besides, despite some orgs claiming there is a "transgender trend", we are just not seeing this in the data. | | |
| ▲ | appreciatorBus an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > despite some orgs claiming there is a "transgender trend", we are just not seeing this in the data.' Rapid-onset gender dysphoria is a well documented phenomenon. https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(16)30765-0/abst... https://statsforgender.org/since-the-turn-of-the-millennium-... | | | |
| ▲ | ipaddr 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's hard to impossible to go back. But the suicide rate is high. | | |
| ▲ | Ralfp 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is high because primarily a minority stress of being a transgender person in unaccepting environment: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266656032... | | |
| ▲ | ipaddr 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | After reading the above I don't believe they concluded stress of living in a non-accepting world is the primary reason. 30% think about killing themselves and 4%+ try each year is shocking. I think whatever side of the debate you are on we can agree things aren't working out for too many people who go through this process. If this was a drug or vaccine or hair shampoo it would have been pulled off the market. | | |
| ▲ | dpark 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > people who go through this process Through what process? This was a study about trans and nonbinary people, not specifically about people who have “transitioned” I would imagine the rate of depression and similar disorders in trans people is extremely high. To be so unsatisfied with one’s own body that you consider (or go through) major treatment and surgery to change something so fundamental. |
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| ▲ | salemh 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Demonstrably false. Transgenderism is a cult ideology intentionally inducing trauma to recreate multiple personality disorder in children. They are easier to abuse, and commit suicide. https://web.archive.org/web/20200523211027/https://www.acped... In 1979 Johns Hopkins Hospital had banned all sex-change operations permanently at their facilities due to rates of suicide having skyrocketed amongst transgender post reassignment surgery. Suicide is twenty times greater among adults who used cross-sex hormones and underwent gender reassignment surgery. According to Johns Hopkins Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry Dr. Paul R. McHugh, “Hopkins stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, producing a ‘satisfied’ but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for amputating normal organs.” John Hopkins concluded... Transgenderism is a mental disorder Sex change is biologically impossible People who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder The suicide rate among transgendered people who had the surgery is 20 times higher *70%-80% of children who expressed transgender feelings, overtime, lost those feelings. | | |
| ▲ | Ralfp 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In 2017 Johns Hopkins Hospital has reopened its transgender care clinic as the Johns Hopkins Center for Transgender and Gender Expansive Health. 2022 research into Hospital's archives found the decision to cease operation in 1979 was political, not evidence based: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36191317/ > *70%-80% of children who expressed transgender feelings, overtime, lost those feelings. This number most likely comes from a study that classified girls as transgender based on behaviors like preference to wear their hair short of wear pants instead of dresses or skirt: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21216800/ Those children did not self-identify as transgender and further more, research could not contact 41% of them for the follow up: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-end-of-the-desistance_b_8... | |
| ▲ | dpd_dpd 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I doubt that is the main reason why transgenderism has been promoted so much in recent years. Most of the ones pushing this ideology appear to fit the profile of autogynephilic males who wish to flaunt their paraphilia in public and gain access to the spaces of unconsenting women while doing so. |
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| ▲ | AdrianB1 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That sounds like appeal to authority, it is classified as a fallacy. | | |
| ▲ | dekhn an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | it's only a fallacy in purely logical arguments. Appeal to authority makes sense in medical, scientific, engineering, and other contexts when the arguments necessarily depend on ambiguous data and subjective conclusions. | |
| ▲ | Ralfp 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why is it okay for OP to question authority in the subject matter while me pointing out they research it more isn't? I have also pointed out that regret rates for transition are within 2%. |
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| ▲ | mvc 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How old are kids when they get their foreskin lopped off? | | |
| ▲ | nomdep 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Indeed, that’s a barbaric custom, akin to genital mutilation, that should be reserved for a real medical necessity, never for religious reasons | | |
| ▲ | TimorousBestie 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is literally a form of genital mutilation. The foreskin is homologous to the hood of the clitoris. |
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| ▲ | erxam 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Hey, you aren't supposed to question our glorious metzitzah b'peh! | |
| ▲ | nslsm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | zahlman 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They do not make that decision, and it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. |
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| ▲ | esterna 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And yet we cannot stop time, and a decision has to be made. It seems natural to involve the child in this decision. Of course, the next best thing (if a decision can't be made now) after stopping time are puberty blockers. Which are not completely without risks, but this applies to the other two options just as well (if not more so). You can't not make decisions, and to claim so is to frame choosing one particular option as not-a-decision. | |
| ▲ | locknitpicker 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > At 12 you simply do not have sufficient capacity to make a good decision on the matter. At 12 kids do not have sufficient capacity to handle any major decision, including any medical procedure. That does not take away their right to see their best interests represented and defended. | |
| ▲ | erxam 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | locopati 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | and yet trans children exist and deserve medical care and social acceptance just like anyone else | |
| ▲ | undersuit 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then we should prescribe puberty blockers to everyone until they can make such a decision. |
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