| ▲ | bambax 5 hours ago |
| So the idea behind JPEG is the same as behind MP3: we filter out what we don't perceive. I wonder if other species would look at our images or listen to our sounds and register with horror all the gaping holes everywhere. |
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| ▲ | thih9 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| About: "I wonder if other species would look at our images or listen to our sounds and register with horror all the gaping holes everywhere.", yes. In particular, dogs: > While people have an image frame rate of around 15-20 images per second to make moving pictures appear seamless, canine vision means that dogs need a frame rate of about 70 images per second to perceive a moving image clearly. > This means that for most of television’s existence – when they are powered by catheode ray tubes – dogs couldn’t recognize themselves reliably on a TV screen, meaning your pups mostly missed out on Wishbone, Eddie from Fraisier and Full House’s Comet. > With new HDTVs, however, it’s possible that they can recognize other dogs onscreen. Source: https://dogoday.com/2018/08/30/dog-vision-can-allow-recogniz... |
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| ▲ | __alexs 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > While people have an image frame rate of around 15-20 images per second to make moving pictures appear seamless, This is just...wrong? Human vision is much fast and more sensitive than we give it credit for. e.g. Humans can discern PWM frequencies up to many thousands of Hz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb_7uN7sfTw | | |
| ▲ | nandomrumber 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | NO YOU ARE! > make moving pictures appear seamless True enough. NTSC is 30fps, while PAL is 25fps. The overwhelming majority of people were happy enough to spend, what, billions on screens and displays capable of displaying motion picture in those formats. That there is evidence that most(?) people are able to sense high frequency PWM signals doesn’t make the claim that 15 to 20 frames per second is sufficient to make moving pictures appear seamless. I’ve walked in to rooms where the LED lighting looks fine to me, and the person I was with has stopped, said “nope” and turned around and walked out, because to them the PWM driver LED lighting makes the room look illuminated by night club strobe lighting. That doesn’t invalidate my experience. | | |
| ▲ | toast0 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > NTSC is 30fps, while PAL is 25fps. That's not really right. Most NTSC content is either 60 fields per second with independent fields (video camera sourced) or 24 frames per second with 3:2 pulldown (film sourced). It's pretty rare to have content that's actually 30 frames per second broken into even and odd fields. Early video game systems ran essentially 60p @ half the lines; they would put out all even or all odd fields, so there wasn't interlacing. If you deinterlace 60i content with a lot of motion to 30p by just combining two adjacent fields, it typically looks awful, because each field is an independent sample. Works fine enough with low motion though. PAL is similar, although 24 fps films were often shown at 25 fps to avoid jitter of showing most frames as two fields but two frames per second as three fields. I think most people find 24 fps film motion acceptable (although classical film projection generally shows each frame two or three times, so it's 48/72 Hz with updates at 24 fps), but a lot of people can tell a difference between 'film look' and 'tv look' at 50/60 fields (or frames) per second. | | |
| ▲ | cubefox an hour ago | parent [-] | | Any idea why movies are still mostly at 24 FPS? Is it just because people became used to it? | | |
| ▲ | pwg 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Because movies (in film form) are projected an entire frame at a time instead of scanned a line (well, actually a dot moving in a line) at a time onto the screen. I read somewhere (but no longer have the link) that when projecting the entire frame at once as film projectors do lower frame rates are not as noticeable. I do not know if modern digital projectors continue to project "whole frames at once" on screen. | |
| ▲ | toast0 40 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Most (or at least many) people visually recognize 24 fps content as film and higher frame rate content as TV/video. Filmmakers generally like their films to look like film and high frame rate films are rare and get mixed reviews. Some TV shows are recorded and presented in 24 fps to appear more cinematic (Stargate: SG1 is an example) | | |
| ▲ | cubefox 31 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That association seems to be an unfortunate equilibrium because higher frame rates seem to be "objectively" better, similar to higher resolution and color. (Someone without prior experience with TV/movies would presumably always prefer a version with higher frame rate.) |
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| ▲ | Gitechnolo 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The discussion on flicker fusion frequency (FFF) and human vs. canine perception is fascinating. When building systems that synchronize with human physiology, like the metabolic digital twins I'm currently developing, we often find that 'perceived' seamlessness is highly variable based on cognitive load and environmental light. While 24-30fps might suffice for basic motion, the biological impact of refresh rates on eye strain (especially for neurodivergent users) is a real engineering challenge. This is why I've been pushing for WCAG 2.1 AAA standards in my latest project; it’s not just about 'seeing' the image, but about minimizing the neurological stress of the interaction itself. | |
| ▲ | zacmps 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Badly phrased but not wrong, this is the minimum frame rate for humans to perceive motion as supposed to a slide show of images. The maximum frame rate we can perceive is much higher, for regular video it's probably somewhere around 400-800. | | |
| ▲ | Gigachad an hour ago | parent [-] | | Maximum depends on what it is you are seeing. If it’s a white screen with a single frame of black, you can see that at incredibly high frame rates. But if you took a 400fps and a 450fps video, I don’t think you would be able to pick which is which. |
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| ▲ | ulfw 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What does frame rate have to do with being able to recognise a creature? If I watch a video in 10fps it looks shite but I still recognise everything on screen | | |
| ▲ | drysart 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's about being able to perceive it as a "living" moving creature and not something different. You can understand something below the perception threshold is supposed to be a creature because you both have a far more advanced brain and you've been exposed to such things your entire life so there's a learned component; but your dog may simply not be capable of making the leap in comprehending that something it doesn't see as living/moving is supposed to be representative of a creature at all. I've personally seen something adjacent to this in action, as I had a dog over the period of time where I transitioned from lower framerate displays to higher framerate displays. The dog was never all that interested in the lower framerate displays, but the higher framerate displays would clearly capture his attention to the point he'd start barking at it when there were dogs on screen. This is also pretty evident in simple popular culture. The myth that "dogs can't see 2D" where 2D was a standin for movies and often television was pervasive decades ago. So much so that (as an example) in the movie Turner and Hooch from 1989, Tom Hanks offhandedly makes a remark about how the dog isn't enjoying a movie because "dogs can't see 2D" and no further elaboration on it is needed or given; whereas today it's far more common to see content where dogs react to something being shown on a screen, and if you're under, say, 30 or so, you may not have ever even heard of "dogs can't see 2D". | |
| ▲ | maverwa 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | With CRTs I would think that the problem may be that they do not see a full picture at all. Because the full screen is never lit all at once? Don’t know how persistence of vision works in this case… | |
| ▲ | afiori 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | With Cathode ray TVs only a single pixel at a time is on, it relies on our eyes having bad enough temporal resolution, if you have Superspeed eyes you will see just a coloured line/pixel moving on screen |
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| ▲ | bsjshshsb 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wonder how dogs get on with RGB presentation? | | |
| ▲ | xoxxala 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Dogs can see some colors, but not as many as humans. They have dichromatic vision, and see shades of gray, brown, yellow and blue. Red and green are particularly bad colors for them. We get blue tennis balls for our pups instead of green; but they aren’t the fetching kind so not sure if it helps. |
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| ▲ | Simran-B 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| My dog doesn't react to familiar voices over the phone at all. The compression and reproduction of audio, while fine for humans, definitely doesn't work for her animal ears. |
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| ▲ | autoexec 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Have you tried it with uncompressed audio? Have all the times when your dog could recognize your voice also been times when you were within smelling range? | | |
| ▲ | toast0 an hour ago | parent [-] | | It's pretty hard to avoid uncompressed audio. Even if it's PCM, there's almost always a lowpass filter, either explicitly in the input/output processing, by the sampling rate, or from the physical limits of the mic and speaker. Everything is tuned for human audible range, so dogs will miss out on the higher frequency stuff. Humans did ok with POTS@8kHz with a 300-3400Hz band pass filter though. The internet says dog hearing goes up to ~ 60 kHz; most audio equipment tuned for humans won't go anywhere near that, but probably cleanly carying high frequency up to the limit of the equipment would be better than psychoacoustic compression tuned for humans. |
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| ▲ | Gigachad an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Could also be the speaker and volume. |
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| ▲ | masklinn 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Gaping holes seems unlikely, more loss of detail or shifted colors. You can experience something like that by using plugins which simulate CVD / color blindnesses. |
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| ▲ | AloysisFrancis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| thanks for sharing informaion |