| ▲ | nba456_ 11 hours ago |
| I never understood why video game lootboxes get regulated while real-life lootboxes like pokemon cards don't. |
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| ▲ | benoau 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Because in real life the store clerk won't let a child spend $1000 on their parents card making purchases again and again and again and again and again, but a video game will let a child do it in less than an hour and consider that a success and try to understand how to stimulate another child to do so. |
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| ▲ | MiiMe19 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | With the rise of online storefronts and employees who just don't care I beg to differ. | | |
| ▲ | nurettin 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Differ all you want. No child will bankrupt a family at a trading card game store. These are physical goods paid in bulk with provisioning and there are laws for returning them. Another point of contention is the randomness of packs. The way you play is: You save up to buy the entire set of boosters and already get almost all cards you need for competitive or fun play. The rest you need to trade for or buy individually. It is much more of a social interaction than gambling. The value you get from saving up and trading is easily 10x what you get from opening boosters. That's why you will never see a bunch of kids queued up in front of a counter frothing from the mouth saying "just... one more!" | | |
| ▲ | hiccuphippo 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Allowing trading is a big part of it. Most online games never allow trading the things bought with real money, they get tied to your account. I guess as a way to prevent CC fraud but it still contributes to the issue. | | |
| ▲ | rcxdude 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's a double-edged sword. For the seller, the ideal would be getting people just as addicted but not allowing trading, since that increases the average spend required to get a specific desired pull substantially. | |
| ▲ | JasonADrury 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Just to be clear, the biggest problems are associated with games that allow trading. | |
| ▲ | nurettin 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Trading wouldn't work due to online game deflation. They have to set you up in order to retain you. When you open a new account, or are a "returning player" you get a bunch of free/easy to get stuff that took someone else a decade to collect. |
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| ▲ | GoblinSlayer 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >No child will bankrupt a family at a trading card game store. Let the child use a separate debit card? Bank cards are personal and work as an authentication factor. | | |
| ▲ | nurettin 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Let the child use a separate debit card? I remember that cartoon. Was it Richie Rich? |
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| ▲ | IshKebab an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can't return an opened pack of Pokémon cards and more than you can get your money back for a used lottery ticket. It's absolutely gambling. Low stakes gambling maybe, but it's still gambling. If you want to allow Pokémon cards and not casinos you have to accept that your rule isn't just "kids can't gamble". |
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| ▲ | october8140 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A kid can’t clean out the Pokemon vending machines just the same. I’m in favor of not letting kids gamble but wish it was applied across the board. | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | shevy-java 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But that is still a strange argument, because IF the argument is that loot boxes are so dangerous and addictive, why can, say, a 19 years old do it but a 18 years old can not? That makes no logical sense. One year is a magical difference suddenly? | | |
| ▲ | kelnos 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is a bit of a silly argument, given all the precedent in real life for this sort of thing. Can a 16 year old magically drive a car properly, but a 15 year old can't? Is an 18 year old magically much more capable doing their electoral civic duty than a 17 year old? Is a 21 year old magically able to consume alcohol responsibly, but a 20 year old isn't? (Or whatever age cutoffs are appropriate for your jurisdiction.) We define these cutoffs not because they are magical or apply equally to everyone, but because we have to draw the line somewhere, in cases where we aren't going to do a blanket all-ages ban. Sometimes the cutoff is chosen poorly, certainly, but that's a problem with the implementation, not the idea itself. | | |
| ▲ | casey2 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | You implicitly assume that age is a proxy for ability, but that's not the reason for these laws. Age is a proxy for membership in a social class where discrimination is permitted. Otherwise we would prevent people from voting, which Americans did with Literacy/IQ tests and Blacks. The actual reasons is that they hope to have captured the childs' reward system by then. Laura Cress must write articles for the BBC if she stopped she would lose her purpose in life and be forced into rehab, she would experience ego death and ostracization until she builds another system approved skill. Current society is heading off a demographic collapse due to this built up debt. The real problem is that we have invented a society that is less rewarding than a slot machine, not that humans are somehow built wrong. A slot machine or hard drug can only effectively hack ones physiology, a social system can hack the whole stack at once (Physiology, Emotions, Ego, Social belonging). You can give bad actors the pains of withdrawal, peril, existential crisis and social suicide all in one. There are examples throughout very recent history of each layer being captured more perfectly. Even physiology more perfectly than any drug, think enclosure act, 14 hour workdays in industrial England. Fine, ban lootboxes, but don't pretend it's to protect youths, it's to utilize "children". society is a massively harmful and evil tool, we must acknowledge that it's pure unadulterated evil that wouldn't blink at killing all youths. This is a fact, not an opinion, morals are just an API for humans that the system uses. |
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| ▲ | riffraff 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because you have to draw a line somewhere, if you want a line. This same reasoning applies to sex consent, voting, driving, working. We want to say "only qualified people can do x" but it's impossible to encode this in regulations and it always boils down to the sorites paradox. So as a culture we have defaulted to "age is a good a proxy for being qualified". | |
| ▲ | ekianjo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not just that, but this assumes that the average 18 years old has the same mental capacity as the others more or less. Bell curves clearly show the opposite | | |
| ▲ | saulapremium 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Clearly they do and many people can safely do things that are illegal and many people should be prevented from doing things that are legal. However, we can't set up a force of psychoanalysts to assess every member of society and run chmod on them, so we go with a compromise. |
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| ▲ | TheAceOfHearts 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Pokemon cards have gone full circle, GameStop now has an online service where you can gamble on cards digitally just like lootboxes. You buy a roll at different price points to win a PSA graded card from a set of probabilities, and then you can sell it back for 90% market value to GameStop or have them ship it to you. The proliferation of gambling over so many domains has radicalized me against it in a way that I didn't think would've been possible a few years ago. |
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| ▲ | riffraff 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The proliferation of gambling over so many domains has radicalized me against it in a way that I didn't think would've been possible a few years ago. I grew up in Italy when sport betting was illegal and you had to do it through illegal channels, and I did it now and then like everyone else, and thought we should totally make it legal. At some point all betting, slot machines etc.. became legal and it's been a disaster and I'm also totally radicalized against it. | | |
| ▲ | rvnx 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | The best solution is through education. For example by showing in big letters the return-to-player ratio: On 100 EUR you will get → 79 back, if you put them again in the machine you will get → 62.41 → 49.30 → 38.95 → 30.77… | | |
| ▲ | mikkupikku an hour ago | parent [-] | | Just trying to get normies to understand that slot machines aren't "hot" and "due" for a jackpot because nobody has won recently is virtually impossible. Stats class is hard and people don't really trust what they've learned anyway. A huge portion of the public even believes in such a thing as a person having "good luck". It's nonsensical, tantamount to believing the god of fortune is going to intercede on your behalf, but people really do think this way. |
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| ▲ | travisjungroth 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Woah, you can sell it back to them? That’s normally the line that isn’t crossed. You sell it at the store next door (pachinko) or on the open market (trading card games and digital items). |
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| ▲ | philistine 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Resale value protects The Pokémon Company. Your child spent all your money on Pokémon cards? Resell the cards. You've just realized your 15 years long obsession has broken your life? Resell the cards. Aggrieved parties can partly get restoration. That way there never is enough political momentum to legiferate them. Try to resell your Fortnite account and they close it. |
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| ▲ | shevy-java 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Reselling never recovers all costs, for most people. I know that because I sold many of my old magic cards when I stopped playing magic (due to lack of time). I recovered about 20% of my expenses at most. | | |
| ▲ | philistine 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Which was enough to mollify you and make it impossible for you to think they should legiferate this mess. |
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| ▲ | djtango 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Pokemon cards are addictive and fun but they're kind of analogue. Loot boxes are more like slot machines - they have flashing lights, animations and jingles to hook you in deeper. And because the lootboxes are in game they can be tuned in frequency and payout just right to keep you playing in a way boring cards could never be (beyond just boring probabilities) |
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| ▲ | dietr1ch 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Idk about pokemon cards, but I'm sure the wotc guys use something to make sniffing newly opened packs addicting. | | |
| ▲ | smelendez 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | That’s funny. I don’t think I’ve opened a pack of Magic cards in about 25 years and I can still remember the smell. | | |
| ▲ | Lutzb 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's a good smell. My kids are opening packs and I can totally recall the sensation of opening mtg cards in the 90s. |
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| ▲ | mikkupikku 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Those are gambling too, and were criticize as such not just now but also when they were new (but people ignored that criticism because pokemon was hype and adults complaining about trendy things are always uncool and ignored.) |
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| ▲ | teeray 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There’s something to be said about the visibility of gambling as a signal to people that someone may have a problem. Gambling on your phone just looks like being on your phone. It even improves access to the addiction. Needing to go to a casino looks a lot different, provides some friction, and could spur intervention. The same could be said about loot boxes vs buying Pokemon cards in a store. |
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| ▲ | jayd16 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I will say card packs are somewhat useful for drafting formats where you need a sealed pack of random unknown cards. Just ripping packs hurts my soul. What a waste. |
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| ▲ | themafia 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The single layer of abstraction. Pokemon cards have utility within the game of pokemon. They additionally have value in secondary market places which is not strictly tied to the rarity of the item. These markets are not required to exist for the game to function. Lootboxes, especially for competitive games, do not have any utility within the game and are often cosmetic. Their value is strictly tied to the rarity of the item which the vendor fully artificially controls. Absent the secondary markets the cases would not be purchased and the items ignored. So you have a choice. You can make pay to win items and publish the probabilities of actually winning them. Or you can have items that can't be traded. Otherwise you're trending very close to widely known regulated activity like gambling. |
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| ▲ | seattle_spring 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Rarity of Pokemon cards is also fully controlled by the vendor, and it's of course very intentional. | | |
| ▲ | themafia 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Pokemon cards can get destroyed or may never enter the market for all the typical reasons or may not be particularly valuable even though they are rare. They don't have nearly as direct a control over the price. |
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| ▲ | bsder 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Tradeability. In real life you can just buy the card. That sets a hard upper limit to the losses. Whereas gacha games and lootboxes are notorious for unpublished, ridiculously bad odds for "desirable" things with no way to outright purchase them. |
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| ▲ | idiotsecant 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| When you buy a pokemon card at least you get a card |
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| ▲ | steele 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is the same argument Valve is presenting. |
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| ▲ | rincebrain 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | (Opinions my own, naturally.) I think they're right, really. Obviously you need to require enough friction that the experiences are comparable (e.g. no letting someone impulse buy 100 times in half a second without having to re-type their "I am an adult" payment info or something analogous, possibly just a hard ceiling for everyone), but I don't think you can ban everything that touches the same sharp edge, and you can't mandate that parents teach their kids how to handle it. So I think the best you can do is put hard limits on people's ability to hurt themselves without at least an "are you really sure" check, and maybe something like not allowing cash in the exchange without adult verification so the kids might, at worst, gamble their FunBux they earned playing a game and get burned on having lost a lot of FunBux, rather than their or their parents' cash. (This doesn't stop parents from giving their kids their credit card, but that's not really a problem you can solve...) | | |
| ▲ | saulapremium 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | >I don't think you can ban everything that touches the same sharp edge Why not, though? Is this a general stance against banning anything, or do you think loot boxes, video games and/or kids are different? |
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| ▲ | Archit3ch 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Given their track record with Artifact, I don't think we should listen to them on the topic. | |
| ▲ | gmadsen 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Physicality. You don’t even own digital games, let alone cosmetics for your digital game license. |
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| ▲ | EQmWgw87pw 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Because neither loot boxes nor Pokémon cards are actually that addicting. There is no strong link to actual gambling and these mechanics. The reason loot boxes get regulated at all is because people simply don’t like them, and they scream the loudest for someone to fix it. Very bad precedent. |