| ▲ | mullingitover 21 hours ago |
| > My prediction is no, because productivity gains must benefit the lower classes to see a multiplier in the economy. Baumol's cost disease hurts the lower classes by restricting their access to services like health care and education, and LLMs/agents make it possible to increase productivity in these areas in ways which were once unimaginable. The problem with services is that they're typically resistant to productivity growth, and that's finally changing. If you can get high quality medical advice for effectively nothing, if you can get high quality individualized tutoring for free, that's a pretty big game changer for a lot of people. Prices on these services have been rising to the stratosphere over the past few decades because it's so difficult to increase the productivity of individual medical practitioners and educators. We're entering an era that could finally break this logjam. |
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| ▲ | bwestergard 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| "Baumol's cost disease hurts the lower classes by restricting their access to services like health care and education, and LLMs/agents make it possible to increase productivity in these areas in ways which were once unimaginable." You've expressed very clearly what LLMs would have to do in order to be economically transformative. "If you can get high quality medical advice for effectively nothing, if you can get high quality individualized tutoring for free, that's a pretty big game changer for a lot of people. Prices on these services have been rising to the stratosphere over the past few decades because it's so difficult to increase the productivity of individual medical practitioners and educators. We're entering an era that could finally break this logjam." It's not that process innovations are lacking, it's that product innovations are perceived as an indignity by most people. Why should one child get an LLM teacher or doctor while others get individualized attention by a skilled human being? |
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| ▲ | mullingitover 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Why should one child get an LLM teacher or doctor while others get individualized attention by a skilled human being? Is the value in the outcome of receiving medical advice and care, and becoming educated, or is the value just in the co-opting of another human being's attention? If the value is in the outcome, the means to achieving that aren't of much consequence. | | |
| ▲ | alwa 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | More subtly, what is an education? What is care? As you point out, the LLMs are (or probably will become) perfectly good at the measurable parts of those services; but I think the residual edge of “good” education/care is more than just the other human’s co-opted attention. How many of us have a reminiscence that starts “looking back, the most life-changing part of my primary or secondary education was ________,” where the blank is a person, not a curriculum module? How many doctors operate, at least in part, on hunches—on totalities of perception-filtered-through-experience that they can’t fully put into words? I’m reminded of the recent account of homebound elderly Japanese people relying on the Yakult delivery lady partly for tiny yoghurt drinks, but mainly for a glimmer of human contact [0]. Although I guess that cuts to your point: the value in that example really is just co-opting another human’s attention. In most of these caring professions, some of the value is in the measurable outcome (bacterial infection? Antibiotic!), but different means really do create different collections of value that don’t fully overlap (fine, I’ll actually lay off the wine because the doctor put the fear of the lord in me). I guess the optimistic case is, with the rote mechanical aspects automated away, maybe humans have more time to give each other the residual human element… [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47287344 | | |
| ▲ | sayamqazi 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > How many of us have a reminiscence that starts “looking back, the most life-changing part of my primary or secondary education was ________,” For me it was a website with turotirals on how to make flash games. It literally launched my career and improved the quality of life for my whole family by an order of magnitude. I am primarily the naysayer of AI but I admit that current LLMs could have easily replicated the whole website. |
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| ▲ | sssilver 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The supply/demand picture here is more complicated than it looks. If AI displaces human educators, yes, their supply shrinks -- but we can't assume what direction its demand will go. We've seen this pattern before: as recorded music became free, live performance got more expensive, and therefore much less accessible than it used to be. What's likely to happen is that "worse" (read: AI) education will become much cheaper, while "better" (read: in-person) education that involves human connection-driven benefits will become much less accessible compared to what it is today. Most people may be consider it a win. It's certainly not a world I'm looking forward to. | | |
| ▲ | sssilver 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Important follow-up to my comment: as fewer people do X -- live music, medicine, education, you name it -- fewer talented people do it as well. Fields need a large base of participants to produce great ones. This is exactly why software has been so extraordinary over the past 30 years: an unusual concentration of gifted minds across the entire humankind committed themselves to it. In my view, Bach, Rachmaninoff, Cole Porter equivalents today probably aren't writing symphonies. They've decided to write code for a living. Which is why any Great American Songbook made today won't hold a candle next to one from 1950s. | | |
| ▲ | somerandomqaguy 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Disagree, we do have the Bach's and Rachmanioff's today: John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Bear McCreary, Yuki Kajiura, Hans Zimmer, and probably a slew I'm not even aware of today. We're in the greatest era of symphonies IMO, it's just that they're hiding in surprising places; movies, TV shows, games, etc. | | |
| ▲ | ludston 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think we can know whether or not this is the case in our own lifetimes, because we are so immersed in popular culture that we can't be objective about it. Enough of our historical great composers weren't venerated until after their deaths, and to describe composers as "hiding" within the most popular media of our era is a great disservice to the many composers that don't have the fame, connections and reputation to be hired to write for these. I would also point out that composing for a medium like a game or a movie places a great deal of constraints upon the composer, in terms of theme, cost of instrumentation, duration and most importantly: what is safe and palatable for an executive to approve of. | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The sound track to "Lord of the Rings" is one of my favorites. |
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| ▲ | myrak 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | withinboredom 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And AI is stuck in the past. As we prepare to launch a new product… people using AI won’t know about it for months or years, potentially. This will make startups have to seed the planet with text so an AI learns about it, not to mention normal SEO and other shit. I’m sure it is only a matter of time before you can pay to inject your product into the models so it knows about it faster, but incumbent companies will pay more to make sure they don’t. The future is going to suck. | | |
| ▲ | friendzis 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I’m sure it is only a matter of time before you can pay to inject your product into the models so it knows about it faster, but incumbent companies will pay more to make sure they don’t. You have just discovered the fully enshittified version of the business model ai companies hope to reach. |
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| ▲ | danans 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Is the value in the outcome of receiving medical advice and care, and becoming educated, Absorbing information doesn't make you "educated". Learning how to employ knowledge with accountability and trust with beings in the real world is what's important, and a machine can't teach you how to do that. > or is the value just in the co-opting of another human being's attention? Why is it "co-opting" if it involves a mutually consenting exchange? | |
| ▲ | heavyset_go 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wisdom comes from application of knowledge and experience in the real world, as does skill. The value comes from applying an expert's wisdom and skill to the problem at hand. You get neither from LLMs. | |
| ▲ | ori_b 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's interesting that you assume there's value in being educated in this hypothetical world of complete passive consumption. The world you're describing is one where the entire economic value of humanity is in reminding the AI to put out the food bowl and refill the water dish at the appropriate time. | | |
| ▲ | gpderetta 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | For many, the Culture is an utopia to aspire to, for some is something to run away as fast as possible. Banks himself described the dichotomy. | | |
| ▲ | ori_b an hour ago | parent [-] | | The interesting thing here is less about what people aspire to, and more about the lack of imagination and thought when considering the world they want to create. It would be funny if the sleepwalkers weren't trying so hard to drag humanity along. |
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| ▲ | jimbokun 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Even if you have perfect medical information and advice through an LLM, can you perform surgery on yourself? Can you prescribe yourself whatever medication you think you need? For education, if you know as much as the average Harvard grad, can you give yourself a Harvard degree that will be as readily accepted in a job application or raising funds for a new business? | | | |
| ▲ | bwestergard 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The premise of your argument is that "the outcome" can be separated from the process. This is true enough for manufacturing bricks: I don't much care what processes was used to create a brick if it has certain a compressive strength, mass, etc. But Baumol's argument, which you introduced to the conversation, is that outcome and process cannot actually be distinguished, even if a distinction in thought is possible among economic theorists. | | |
| ▲ | forgotaccount3 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > But Baumol's argument, which you introduced to the conversation, is that outcome and process cannot actually be distinguished How is that Baumol's argument? How is 'outcome' vs 'process' relevant to his argument at all? 'Cost disease' is just the foundational truth that the cost of the output from industries with stagnant productivity will increase due to the fact that the workers in that industry can be more valuable in other industries, reducing the number of relative workers in the stagnant industry. If you want to make the output from a stagnant industry available to a broader spectrum of the population then you have to improve the productivity of that industry. | | |
| ▲ | lordnacho 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think he means that when you go to watch the symphony orchestra, you are going to watch a bunch of people sitting with their instruments, manually playing them. There is no way to separate this process from the product of the process. You're not buying the sound of the music. You can just stream that. As far as that is the product, it has already been automated and scaled so millions of people can hear it at once, whenever they feel like it. You're buying the sound AND the people sitting in their formal clothes manually moving their strings over a violin, with painstaking accuracy developed through years of manual practice. You couldn't make a robot do it, for example. You could maybe make a robot play a violin, but that again isn't what the product is. The product is tied to an expectation of what it is that does not allow for it to be done more effectively. By contrast manufacturing processes are not tied to this expectation. If I buy a loaf of bread, I don't care whether the wheat was manually harvested or harvested by a huge machine. |
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| ▲ | TeMPOraL 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's very true for healthcare (especially mental healthcare) and education today as well, because for most people, the choice isn't LLM vs. human attention - it's LLM vs. no access at all. | | |
| ▲ | duskdozer 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not like that's an inherently unsolvable problem without using LLMs |
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| ▲ | friendzis 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The value is in the signature and the power of the legal department your insurance provider employs. | |
| ▲ | techblueberry 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Honestly, I think it’s the second. | |
| ▲ | Devasta 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > the value just in the co-opting of another human being's attention? Thats a weird way of describing it. A machine telling me to exercise and eat right will be ignored, even if the advice is correct. A person I trust taking me aside, looking me in the eye and asking me the same would be taken far more seriously. | | |
| ▲ | usefulcat 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That may well be true if you need to be persuaded to exercise and eat right. OTOH, if you don't need to be persuaded and just want information on how best to go about doing it, then I think it makes little difference where the information comes from as long as it's of reasonable quality. | |
| ▲ | alex43578 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe for you, but that model clearly doesn’t generalize, or dieticians and physical trainers would only have success stories to point to. | |
| ▲ | myrak 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | somekyle2 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It also seems like the value of quality tutoring that doesn't primarily function as social/class signaling goes down as tools capable of automating high quality intellectual work are more widely available. | | |
| ▲ | mullingitover 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | It depends on outcome again: is the value of tutoring the social class elevation, or is it in the outcome of becoming more skilled and knowledgable? There's also the deeper philosophical question of what is the meaning of life, and if there's inherent value in learning outside of what remunerative advantages you reap from it. |
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| ▲ | Finnucane 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If I described my symptoms to an AI and it suggested a diagnosis, I would defintely get a second opinion. | | |
| ▲ | mullingitover 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's reasonable, but don't feel like you're safe letting the humans rest on their laurels. Human medical errors kill thousands upon thousands every year. |
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| ▲ | bumby 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >If you can get high quality medical advice for effectively nothing This is an area where a confident, but wrong information is extremely costly. It’s like saying an LLM can give you high quality directions on how to tap into a high voltage transformer. Sure, but when it’s wrong, it’s very very wrong with disastrous consequences. That’s why professions like doctors and Engineers are more regulated than others. |
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| ▲ | philistine 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I didn’t know Claude Code could put a thermometer in my butt. |
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| ▲ | ndr42 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm not certain that a already observable negative impact of AI on some areas of education could be offset by "high quality individualized tutoring for free". |
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| ▲ | whatshisface 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| By the time it replaces doctors, nobody but today's investors will be able to afford anything at all. The X-shaped economy would have owners in the V and manual laborers (assuming this doesn't translate to gains in automation) in the ^. This outcome is worth avoiding... |
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| ▲ | nine_k 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Can a robot write a medicine prescription? A medical procedure prescription? If yes, that would be a game-changer. But the medical insurance providers would be very cautious about honoring these. Then, if things go wrong, what entity would be held accountable for malpractice? You already can get a good-quality medical advice "for nothing", unless it requires e.g. a blood test. The question is, how actionable such an advice is going to be, and how even the quality is going to be. |
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| ▲ | program_whiz 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's a simple solution. If a medical malpractice happens, law suit against the LLM company. If their license is revoked as part of that finding, unfortunately that applies to the "doctor" (e.g. ChatGPT). Same for self-driving. Just hold each car like a normal driver, the owning AI company has liability. So after ~20 tickets and accidents in a week, a few ambulances being blocked, the only option is to revoke the driver's license (of which, all the cars share one, as they have the same brain). This would make AI companies more cautious and only advertise capabilities they actually have and can verify. They would be held to the standard of a human. I think that's reasonable (why replace humans if the outcome is worse, and why reduce protections for individuals). To make the analogy more clear: even if a telemedicine doc sees 10,000 patients a day all over the world, they would be held liable for any medical malpractice. Bad enough, and their license would be revoked, regardless of the fact that they see many patients all over the world. Same deal with AI / LLM -- if ChatGPT is making medical advice and it hurts someone, that's the same as a human doing so -- its malpractice and lawsuits can happen. If they are somehow licensed, well then that license can be revoked. We would revoke a human's license for a single offense in some cases, the same should occur with AI. |
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| ▲ | jacquesm 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well, there's always wars as the way to get rid of people. I really don't rule out that the people that benefit from this sort of thing will purposefully steer the world in that direction because the poor won't have any choice other than to enlist as a way out of their situation, and never mind the consequences. You can already see some of this happening. |
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| ▲ | kurthr 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You're implying that insurance companies will allow prices to fall and lower their profits. That seems like a really unlikely event in the current economy. They fire a lot of doctors and nurses, but they won't lower prices. |
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| ▲ | xeromal 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is assuming no competition materializes from the lowered friction | |
| ▲ | skybrian 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The ACA requires 80-85% of health insurance to go toward medical care (medical loss ratio). The way they work around that is to figure out how to charge more for medical care. |
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| ▲ | mcmcmc 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’m sick of this idea that “free” services are beneficial to society. There is no such thing as a free lunch; users are essentially bartering their time, attention, IP (contributed content) and personal/behavioral data in exchange for access to the service. By selling those services at a cost of “free”, hyperscalers eliminate competition by forcing market entrants to compete against a unit price of 0. They have to have a secondary business to subsidize the losses from servicing the “free” users, which of course is usually targeted advertising to capitalize on the resources paid by users for access. Or simply selling to data brokers. With the importance of training data and network effects, “free” services even further concentrate market power. Everyone talks about how AI is going to take away jobs, but no one wants to confront how badly the anticompetitive practices in big tech are hurting the economy. Less competition means less opportunity for everyone else, regardless of consumer benefit. The only way it works if the “free” service for tutoring or healthcare is through government subsidies or an actual non-profit. Otherwise it’s just going to concentrate market power with the megacorps. |
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| ▲ | hn_acc1 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This 1000x. "Free" is only a viable business model if the govt funds it. Otherwise, the $$ has to come from somewhere else in the company - how long will it take for the company to lose interest in a loss-leader when they're making $$ from other parts? Look at all the deprecated Google products. What happens when Gemini-SaaS makes billions from licensing to other companies, and Gemini-Charity-for-the-poors starts losing money? Sadly, the bigger the $$ in the tech pie, the more we have attracted robber barons, etc. | |
| ▲ | wisty 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ok sow how about "much cheaper"? | |
| ▲ | drnick1 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I’m sick of this idea that “free” services are beneficial to society. There is no such thing as a free lunch; users are essentially bartering their time, attention, IP (contributed content) and personal/behavioral data in exchange for access to the service. In aggregate, this is true, but there are many ways to game the system to one's advantage and get a true "free lunch." For example, people watching Youtube with an adblocker and logged out don't provide Google with any income or useful telemetry. Likewise you can get practically unlimited GPT/Claude/etc by using multiple accounts. | | |
| ▲ | mcmcmc 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, you are misunderstanding th economic principle. There is still a cost associated with serving that user, and the user is still paying for the cost of their internet connection and the opportunity cost of spending time on the service, or of setting up new accounts to get past usage limits. “No useful telemetry” I don’t really agree with in the YouTube example, as view counts are still vital for their recommendation algorithm. TINSTAFL has two main implications. First that nothing is free, someone has to pay for it. Second is that money is not the only thing you pay with; every choice has an opportunity cost. Gaming the system costs someone something. |
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| ▲ | tsss 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You could get high quality medical advice 20 years ago on the internet, or 40 years ago in the library. Doctors aren't there to give you advice, they are mostly gate keepers. Every person who's chronically ill knows that doctors are totally useless for anything beyond the 10 most common diseases and primarily exist to approve or reject your pleas for lab work. They won't go away, neither will psychotherapists and all the middle managers that can be easily automated, because their real purpose is not the practical work that they do. |
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| ▲ | scubadude 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > high quality medical advice I'll replace my doctor with AI immediately after the tech bros do lol |