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Working and Communicating with Japanese Engineers(tokyodev.com)
78 points by zdw 4 days ago | 38 comments
onion2k 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Lush, the bathbombs company, has an internal tech team that builds the apps, website, and point of sale systems. I worked there for a little while on some web-based tooling for payments which involved working with the Japanese team who did the tech for the Japanese site. They were really good. Everything was incredibly clear and easy to understand because they had to put a lot of effort into written comms due to both the language barrier and the time difference. I built a great appreciation for what concise, high quality communication looks like.

It's worth getting a role where you're forced into improving. I'm definitely a better communicator than I was before that job because of it.

resheku an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I have a similar experience. Whenever I send message to my Japanese colleagues their response is always detailed and precise. They might take time in replying as of course they use AI and auto translating tools but the reply will be accurate. In fact, I find the worse level of English understanding the better the answer they provide, and it’s not only the work they put into it, there is a feeling of respect and importance towards other people work which I really appreciate.

sunray2 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sounds really nice! Do you have an example of the concise, high quality communciation the Japanese team used? It'd be interesing to see what they focused on to make it so clear.

onion2k 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There are a few things.

- They didn't make assumptions about what the person reading would already know. Everything simple was explained, and was there were link to prior docs where complicated concepts were needed (e.g end of day cash consolidation in a store, because Japanese stores worked differently to US and Europe.) That made it really easy to read any document in isolation. We had a really good wiki that covered everything.

- The team insisted on keeping docs up to date, and deprecating old docs for things that weren't relevant any more. They kept things tidy. They didn't drop writing documentation when things got busy.

- They seemed to have spent quite a lot of effort organising things - tickets were always labelled and complete.

- They were dedicated to using consistent terminology everywhere. They had a glossary and they stuck to it, and that extended to the code that they wrote. Product docs, tech docs, and code all used the same language for the same thing. I think they avoided using similar terms for things too, especially where things could be ambiguous in translation from Japanese to English and vice versa.

To be honest, and with a decent amount of hindsight, I don't think anything was especially clever. It was just clear that the team put the effort in to doing the things most teams know they should be doing. I haven't worked there for a few years now but I bet they're having a lot of success with AI because that documentation would be a great source of context.

trueismywork 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Getting small details right is something everyone thinks is obvious. But how to achieve it without becoming mired in processes and keeping work going is a skill that is very difficult to cultivate and a very difficult problem to solve. Requiring a lot of clever people skills. Warms my heart to hear stuff like this.

atoav 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not the person you asked here, but my guess is that it mostly has to do with the need for asynchronous communications. You can't just quickly ask the guy from Japan and expect an answer right away. That means the text needs to cover all questions.

I once worked in a job where each day of the week was covered by a different person. Meaning at the end of the day you had to leave everything in a state that another person could pick it up right away without much hassle. This was mostly done via emails and pieces of paper with text on it, but worked flawlessly.

And the only reason it did was because you couldn't just ask the guy from the day before a question. It all needed to be anwered by the work he left for you.

p1esk 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I’m forced to do this with claude code: documenting work for context management. Every new agent starts fresh, so everything better be recorded and explained.

bythreads 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Worked for years in japan, beg to disagree.

Love japanese and japan but their work culture is horrific - Japanese are inefficient and the veneer of looking to work "hard" is more important than the hard work itself. People often stay until ridiculously late just to show they "put in the effort" which is more important than outcome.

Then again that happens in many other countries as well ...

cedws 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah. I lived in Tokyo for 6 months as a digital nomad (so still working for an overseas employer.) As much as I love Japan, after hearing what the work culture is like I became pretty sure I didn't want to move there permanently. Not only is it an extremely unmeritocratic environment, the pay for software engs is rubbish. As a foreigner you'll more than likely be treated like dirt and passed up on for promotions.

I think it's a shame because Japan is going through a massive tourism boom at the moment. There's surely a huge number of incredibly smart and talented people who would like to bring their skills in and help lift Japan out of its economic slumber. But Japan is still very closed off and shows no signs of wanting to modernise.

OneMorePerson 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Most places/countries/companies that value hard work tend to produce a lot, but I also wonder what goes on when it tilts too far and hard work becomes what you are measuring for. In the US for example there's still the vague idea that working hard is a virtue of sorts, but there's also an equivalent desire to produce something, be efficient, etc.

I haven't directly experienced Japanese work culture (just language and traveling) but it seems like they value hard work above all else, which makes innovation almost a threat. You might take away someone's opportunity to show "hard work" if you removed a difficult task.

mfuzzey 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"we really need to focus on user-facing touchpoints, because there’s too much sign-up friction. Like, we need to 10x the stickiness of the landing page but also keep it lean,"

Even as a native English speaker I find this type of language hard to understand, fluffy and ambiguous. We would all benefit from using plain language not just non native English speakers

founditerating 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Who the hell talks like this in the first place?

I've worked in Japan for 7 years and majority of the time you will not be working with native English speakers, usually people who speak multiple languages at all times, if you're only language you know is English you are the minority and people will have to work with you to understand.

I couldnt even finish the article after that insane ramble of gibberish I'm genuinely confused who in the hell would ever talk like that.

birdsongs 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> and majority of the time you will not be working with native English speakers, usually people who speak multiple languages at all times, if you're only language you know is English you are the minority and people will have to work with you to understand.

This is pretty much life anywhere outside of North America and the UK (or colonies). In Norway, I don't think a single coworker of mine is a native English speaker (I am). We get along fine of course, but often I see the resistance they feel when having to switch to English. Second (or third) languages just take more brain power, and have more friction.

I have learned Norwegian, but English is still is required sometimes, as it's the common denominator amongst the mix of Norwegian, Swedish, German, and Spanish people. And that English is usually functional and as clear as can be.

This is the engineering department though. If you go to marketing or strategy it's full of this corpo double-speak.

Nashooo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Would you mind sharing some info on how you found a tech job in Norway? I'm from another European country and looking for some first-hand knowledge on working in / moving to Norway.

birdsongs 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yeah, absolutely. I came from the US, so it was a bit harder than a Schengen move. Not sure if you qualify for that or need a skills visa like I did.

But essentially I applied, a lot on LinkedIn. This started early 2021. Took about 8 months to secure a role, I was at 5 YoE at the time, embedded systems / embedded Linux engineering, and I would say moderately good at my job, nothing spectacular. No FAANG.

Oslo was quite difficult, I wasn't able to secure a job there. They are also very keen on grades and transcripts, even though it had been a decade since I was in University. I had mediocre grades, which may have hurt.

But I applied all over Norway, and got a robotics job in a small town on the west coast. They sponsored my skills visa, got me here, and after a year I transferred to our Oslo branch. Once you're in the country it's massively easier to move around. Interview was standard and sane, most here have been. Recruiter/manager soft fit check, a few technical rounds, then team and upper management interviews. Be humble but confident in interviews, don't brag excessively, it's very much the opposite of the US in working culture (read about "Janteloven"). Pay was substantially lower but I am so happy with the quality of life here I couldn't care less.

UDI, the immigration department, is steady but slow. Everything just takes time. Lots of info here (follow to the "skilled worker" portal): https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/work-immigration/

I knew no Norwegian when moving. Nearly all tech jobs are English hybrid enough you can get by. But I would highly, highly recommend learning the language. Socially (private life) and professionally it helps so much. And it's a bit rare to really learn it, so people are often impressed or happy you do speak it. It's difficult though for a few reasons, dialect variety, English fluency among Norwegians, etc. I would say it took me all of 4 years to get to the point I could converse mostly fine at speed with someone speaking in a native dialect. Reading is much easier, that came after a year or two.

This was kind of an info dump, let me know if you have any specific questions!

Tl;dr: use LinkedIn, apply, apply, apply, don't get disheartened / give up, and give it time.

atoav 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is The Lingo. It is something people use when they try to say bland obvious stuff while sounding like they are tech wizards that deserve a high wage. I know the pattern, I studied philosophy, where you also have some writers that express simple ideas with complex lingo, while you have others where the lingo is complex, but it is needed, because the thought is also complex. For the uninitiated telling the two apart can be hard.

In this case that just means: our landing page needs to convince more people to sign up without getting too bloated.

This means it implies a linear correlation between amount of content on the page and sign ups. More content, more signups. But not too much, otherwise it is bad again.

In essence it is a bad take on a probably real problem, expressed by a person that needs to hide behind the lingo.

financltravsty 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This makes sense?

User-facing touch points: everything a user can interact with

Sign-up friction: self explanatory

Stickiness: less bounce rate

Lean: don't overload with touch points/bloat

throwaway173738 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

You’re actually using jargon to explain jargon here. Try explaining all of this from the user’s perspective.

ilamont 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

developers from the West see no problem with clearly stating their opposition to a topic and listing the reasons why they oppose it—in many ways, this is seen as good, clear communication. This style can sometimes be jarring to Japanese speakers, who generally prefer to avoid anything that could be taken as blunt or confrontational.

This was buried at the end of the essay, but is one of the most important points.

I worked (not as a developer) in a company that was acquired by a Japanese company. Meetings were structured, and debate was kept to a minimum. If there was disagreement (typically framed as a difference of opinion or conflicting goals) there would be an effort to achieve some sort of balance or harmony. If the boundary was not hard, it was possible to push back. Politely.

Also, if Japanese colleagues expressed frustration, or were confrontational, that was a red flag that some hard boundary had been crossed. This was extremely rare, and replies had to be made in a very careful, respectful way.

keiferski 6 hours ago | parent [-]

From what I understand, it’s not so much that all disagreement is to be avoided entirely, but rather that it should be done on an individual level prior to the meeting. So the fundamental difference is that a western company may use the meeting as an opportunity to discuss and debate an issue, whereas that process is done before the meeting in Japanese corporate culture.

zoom6628 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As Someone who has spent decades working with teams around the world with varying levels of English from native to none, these are good guidelines. I would add to try and talk using the simplest and least ambiguous words you can. Breathe. And use shorter sentences.

I also have non English speaking family members so I get to improve everyday. And yes I make mistakes every day but 99% avoidable and the rest I just accept and move on. Multicultural and multilingual teams are a joy not a test so enjoy them when you have the chance. Might surprise yourself how much you will learn about people and communications and build a new level of self awareness in the process.

My 2c.

sunray2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Something the article touches on: communication is not just about how we express ourselves, it's about this mutual respect that that we have to grow into. That crosses any boundary, and is something we can always learn.

You can see that, to some extent, in how the article’s points apply to language and communication in general, not just between Japanese and English. While turns of phrase give your repartee a flavour that sells your point—like what you’re reading now—it’s also a product of your thinking process, and as the article says, could cloud the point you’re trying to make. If you can speak or write clearer, then your points will also become clearer to yourself. That’s follows my experience, since I speak a lot of German for work. In German, I must think carefully about each point I make, otherwise I’ll run into a sentence for which I don’t know the words. I endeavour to respect the language and culture, and in doing so put effort into making my points simple enough for me to reach for the right words and phrases to show this respect (at least, I try!)

For a good example: David Sylvian collaborating with the late Ryuichi Sakamoto. You can see them writing ‘Blue of Noon’ in the Brilliant Trees sessions on Vimeo/Youtube. David talks about his use of really minimal language to get musical structure and points across, since Ryuichi’s English wasn’t yet as perfect in the 80s as it was later on. You see this directly in the session videos. What’s truly the best about it, is the respect they show for each other.

Bad example (potentially): Aston Martin F1 collaborating with Honda on the new F1 engine :-) . After several years of extensive development and billion-dollar investment, today they’re at the back end of the grid, more than 3 seconds off the pace. According to recent rumours, as recently as November, the Aston Martin F1 bosses visited Tokyo to discuss progress of the engine that had been in development for a few years, apparently having hardly visited before, and were shocked to learn that only about 30% of the original workforce from Honda's previous venture in F1 remained. It seems they didn't even know how far behind schedule Honda was! For projects as large as F1 car development, it’s unfathomable that this mutual curiosity, which in effect is a form of respect, apparently wasn’t there.

avidiax 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I feel that everyone could learn and apply the idea of having clear, concise language without jargon.

I've hear this notion called "international English". English spoken in a way that non-native speakers find relatively easy to understand and follow.

The hard part of this is that non-native speakers will rarely ask for this. It's a gift that you have to give, and a gift you have to encourage others to give. And most of all, it needs to be done in a way so as not to be condescending, by simply being clear.

canpan 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I speak multiple languages fluently and people are always surprised when I share that my vocabulary is seriously limited. I learned it is an advantage. I am forced to use simple words to explain.

On the opposite end: I had a coworker, I only ever got about 30% of what he said. I thought it's my Japanese skills. He used complicated sentences and words all over the place. But when I asked other Japanese coworkers, they told me they could not understand him either.

chii 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Wouldn't that international english be the same simple english (e.g., https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page)?

accidentallfact 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I believe that this goes beyond vocabulary. It's more about who bears the burden in communication - in most cultures, it's the speaker, who is supposed to communicate clearly, and concisely. In western culture, it's the listener, who is expected to decipher whatever the speaker is talking about.

tdeck 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> In most cultures, it's the speaker, who is supposed to communicate clearly, and concisely. In western culture, it's the listener, who is expected to decipher whatever the speaker is talking about.

If you said this in Japanese, I'd say something like "Hmm, that seems a bit...". And you'd be expected to figure out what the rest of the sentence was.

To be more clear, I don't think the generalization you're making is valid. My experience of non-"Western" cultural communication styles has not at all been uniformly more direct and clear. I think some subcultures in the US have an annoying habit of doing what you describe (e.g. "if you can't follow this you must be dumb" kind of mentality) but many others do not.

jamesbelchamber 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Could Project Managers start talking to me like the suggestion in Scenario 1 too please, that's clearly better.

duskdozer 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, a lot of these seem to me like just good communication skills. It's just disproportionately helpful for non-native speakers, I guess.

muyuu an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I worked in Japan for ~7 years. I don't think I can relate with any of this, for starters I think not speaking Japanese relatively fluently would completely shape your experience from the get go.

Granted, this was a long time ago and even seeing non-Japanese around in Tokyo was rare, unlike now. But in the office environment let alone in tech, I doubt you can really make it work without not just speaking Japanese, but being considerably adapted to their culture. I think the chances of the dev just moving to Japan to work in tech and be anything other than a total outcast are poor. Which is ok if you plan to just do a year or two maybe. Even the author himself first got well acquainted with the language and culture then moved into development. And even so, this is hardly for but a select few to just fit into this lifestyle.

For North Americans or Europeans, the intersection of people who can make it work and are also incentivised to make it work looks infinitesimally small to me, esp. if you can opt for jobs in the industry in America or even Europe. It's a totally different story for someone from say South Korea or Taiwan, or to a lesser extent other Asian countries. For starters, coming in as a junior dev in Japan or as a translator won't be a massive pay downgrade for them. For South Koreans and Taiwanese the culture will be a lot more familiar, although there will of course still be some friction. So imagine coming in as mid-manager or higher, wow it sounds like quite the experiment to me knowing the place well. CEO with capital, maybe. But good luck with that.

faizan199 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do Japanese people know English?

smukherjee19 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, especially if people living in the city. I have known Japanese people who can’t speak English well but can read technical CS papers and understand well enough to give a summary and presentation in Japanese.

Just keep in mind they are usually very good in reading, okayish in listening, and kinda needs work on speaking. But that’s expected. If you live a daily life in Japan like the Japanese, you barely need to speak English, or hear it, if at all. Even the foreign staff at the convenience store speak Japanese good enough for them to carry on their duties.

frumiousirc 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The average native Japanese speaker knows more English than the average native English speaker knows Japanese.

photios 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah. I'm not a native English speaker and I spent significant time and effort learning the damn language. It paid off.

What's preventing Japanese engineers from doing the same?

koito17 an hour ago | parent [-]

> What's preventing Japanese engineers from doing the same?

The fact they don't really need it in their life (or job). English is definitely necessary if you work service jobs in Tokyo (to deal with tourists), but not much anywhere else.

Japanese is one of a handful of languages where one can complete a postdoc entirely within the language. Many languages are not like this. e.g. in the Phillipines, STEM subjects are almost entirely taught in English, since Tagalog simply doesn't have words to describe most of the concepts. The result is something like 90% of the coursework being in English, with random Tagalog words mixed in. The concept is called "Taglish" if I recall correctly.

This is unnecessary in countries like Japan, China, South Korea, etc. If you're applying to a graduate school in Japan (or China, or Korea), expecting to receive education in English is actually the edge-case, not the expectation.

Also, at least in my company, there is an interesting trend where people are deciding learning English isn't really necessary since AI translation has gotten "good enough" for most use cases.

photios 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

> The fact they don't really need it in their life (or job). English is definitely necessary if you work service jobs in Tokyo (to deal with tourists), but not much anywhere else.

But the linked article seems to imply the opposite. I mean, working with an English PM sure sounds like the language is one of the job's core competencies.

cinntaile 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The average Japanese person doesn't know English.

lysace 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Text is often a lot easier than speech.