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dehrmann 2 hours ago

> Hydrogen is such a terrible idea it was never getting off the ground.

It's coming from Toyota because Toyota can't wrap its head around not making engines. Ironically, the place hydrogen might work is airplanes where the energy density of batteries doesn't work.

WalterBright an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> the place hydrogen might work is airplanes where the energy density of batteries doesn't work.

How is that going to work? Cryogenic liquid hydrogen? High pressure tanks? Those don't seem practical for an airplane.

What does work for airplanes is to use carbon atoms that hydrogen atoms can attach to. Then, it becomes a liquid that can easily be stored at room temperature in lightweight tanks. Very high energy density, and energy per weight!

(I think it's called kerosene.)

TheSpiceIsLife 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

Diesel, kerosene, rocket propelled RP1, and fuel oil / bunker fuel in the case of cargo ships.

It’s not a coincidence that where easy of handling, storage safety, and high energy density are needed everything seems to converge on compression ignition medium to long chain liquid hydrocarbons.

nandomrumber an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Has the hydrogen storage problem been solved yet?

Last time I checked it needs to be stored in cryo / pressure vessel and it also leaks through steel and ruins its structural properties in the process.

dogma1138 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

There are some innovation like hydrogen paste but it’s not going to be useful for a combustion engine cycle.

eptcyka an hour ago | parent [-]

The Mirai does not combust hydrogen.

idiotsecant 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

We store hydrogen all the time for industrial processes. It's not some super science, it's just expensive.

breve 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It's coming from Toyota because Toyota can't wrap its head around not making engines.

Of course they can. Toyota sells BEVs. As time goes on BEVs will become a greater percentage of their sales.

dehrmann 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The bZ4X? 10+ years after the Nissan Leaf?

breve an hour ago | parent [-]

And the bZ3, bZ5, bZ7, bZ3X, bZ Woodland, C-HR+, the Lexus RZ, and soon the Hilux EV:

https://electrek.co/2026/01/09/toyota-electric-pickup-images...

formerly_proven 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Toyota sells bad EVs and was the last OEM to offer one. It’s the most anti-EV OEM by far and engages/engaged in the most EV FUD.

freetime2 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Toyota sells bad EVs

The 2026 bZ Woodland [1] looks pretty nice in my opinion.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/02/looks-a-lot-like-an-ele...

Spooky23 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The bZ4X was particularly bad. Toyota adopted a combo of NIH syndrome and DNGAF. They didn’t anticipate cold weather. The batteries lost like 30% of their capacity in the cold and the resale value of it tanked.

magicalhippo 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> The batteries lost like 30% of their capacity in the cold

Here in Norway Toyota was invited to include the bZ4X in this years winter range test[1], but they declined. Suzuki entered with their eVitara model, which is a "technological twin" of the Toyota Urban Cruiser.

The Urban Cruiser really disappointed in a regular test performed in cold weather[2]. So perhaps unsurprisingly, the Suzuki eVitara was by far the worst in the winter range test, with the least range overall and more than 40% reduction compared to its WLTP range, among the worst in the test.

[1]: https://www.tek.no/nyheter/nyhet/i/d4mMkA/verdens-stoerste-r...

[2]: https://www.tek.no/test/i/OkQAwE/toyota-urban-cruiser

aaronbrethorst an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

They’re also just phenomenally ugly cars.

dcrazy 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

It shares the same ugly design language as much of Toyota’s lineup.

some-guy an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have only purchased Toyota vehicles (currently in the market for an EV) and it baffles me that Dodge created a Charger in EV form and Toyota hasn’t made even an EV Corolla or Camry.

lostlogin 43 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

An electric Corolla or Camry is my ultimate. I hate driving.

I want an appliance that just works. The Corolla and Camry were this for petrol.

I love my Leaf but it isn’t a Carolla.

What’s with the turning circle on the Leaf?

breve 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

That's essentially the bZ3. But a Corolla branded BEV will eventually happen:

https://electrek.co/2025/10/13/toyotas-best-selling-car-elec...

badc0ffee 13 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

And yet they had one of the first hybrids (although not a plug-in hybrid) in the Prius.

Plasmoid an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We're actually not that far off.

Right now, liquid fuels have about 10x the energy density of batteries. Which absolutely kills it for anything outside of extreme short hop flights. But electric engines are about 3x more efficient than liquid fuel engines. So now we're only 3x-4x of a direct replacement.

That means we are not hugely far off. Boeing's next major plane won't run on batteries, but the one afterwards definitely will.

breve an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Boeing's next major plane won't run on batteries, but the one afterwards definitely will.

Jet engines work better. Boeing's next major plane will have jet engines, just like their previous major planes.

Synthetic, carbon neutral jet fuel will be the future for commercial jets.

40 minutes ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
WalterBright an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> So now we're only 3x-4x of a direct replacement.

The math leads out an important factor. As the liquid fuel burns, the airplane gets lighter. A lot lighter. Less weight => more range. More like 6x-8x.

Batteries don't get lighter when they discharge.

capitainenemo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, there's also burning regular fuel in a fuel cell, a FCEV. That doubles the efficiencies over ICE, so I guess that bumps it back up to 8x away?

Given the great energy densities and stability in transport of hydrocarbons, there's already some plants out there synthesising them directly from green sources, so that could be a solution if we don't manage to increase battery densities by another order of magnitude.

WalterBright an hour ago | parent [-]

> there's already some plants out there synthesising them directly from green sources

I didn't realize that a "green" carbon atom is different from a regular carbon atom. They both result in CO2 when burned.

TheSpiceIsLife 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

And, the two major byproducts of burning hydrocarbons are water and carbon dioxide.

Literally essential plant nutrients, essential for life.

Tangentially related, the 2022 Hunga Tonga–Hunga Haʻapai volcanic eruption ejected so much water vapour in to the upper atmosphere, it was estimated to have ongoing climate forcing effects for up to 10 years.

Water vapour is a stronger greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

And we heard precisely nothing about that in the media other than some science specific sources at the time and nothing on an ongoing basis.

From Wikipedia:

The underwater explosion also sent 146 million tons of water from the South Pacific Ocean into the stratosphere. The amount of water vapor ejected was 10 percent of the stratosphere's typical stock. It was enough to temporarily warm the surface of Earth. It is estimated that an excess of water vapour should remain for 5–10 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Hunga_Tonga%E2%80%93Hunga...

robertjpayne 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

Please, the media didn't report on this because natural disasters affecting the climate is not controllable by humans and thus doesn't warrant a global effort to address unless it's so large as to be species ending.

Global warming is not fake, there's tons and tons of evidence it is real and the weather is getting more and more extreme as humans continue to burn petrol.

TheSpiceIsLife an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

More accurately, the calculation needs to factor in the fact that battery weight doesn’t decrease as charge is used.

Commercial aviation’s profitability hinges on being able to carry only as much fuel as strictly[1] required.

How can batteries compete with that constraint?

Also, commercial aviation aircraft aren’t time-restricted by refuelling requirements. How are batteries going to compete with that? Realistically, a busy airport would need something like a closely located gigawatt scale power plant with multi-gigawatt peaking capacity to recharge multiple 737 / A320 type aircraft simultaneously.

I don’t believe energy density parity with jet fuel is sufficient. My back of the neocortex estimate is that battery energy density would need to 10x jet fuel to be of much practical use in the case of narrow-body-and-up airliner usefulness.

abdullahkhalids 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

An A320 can store 24k liters of fuel. Jet fuel stores 35 MJ/L. So, the plane carries 8.4E11 J of energy. If that was stored in a battery that had to be charged in an hour 0.23GW of electric power would be required.

So indeed, an airport serving dozens or hundreds of electric aircrafts a day will need obscene amounts of electric energy.

WalterBright an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You laid it out better than I. Thank you!

TheSpiceIsLife 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

Thanks Walter!

Braxton1980 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It might also be because the Japanese government works very hard to have full employment and EVs require less labor.

qingcharles an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The energy density doesn't work for now. Everybody hoping for that breakthrough, and battery aircraft are moving into certain sectors (drone delivery, air taxis etc).

aunty_helen an hour ago | parent | next [-]

One of the trade offs is that engines are actually ridiculously heavy. Compact, extreme high power electric motors are starting to be commercialised. But also, fuel burns so you lose weight as you’re flying whereas batteries stay the same.

Electric aviation is interesting but as someone who knows a bit about the industry, biofuels make more sense here.

Lerc an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Structural batteries were supposed to be the solution where the density wasn't so important. I don't really have a good understanding of the ration of fuel weight to structural weight in existing aircraft though.

WalterBright 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Jet engine and wing efficiency have increased enormously over the last 50 years.

dev1ycan 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They are just too much in bed with big oil to want to switch, instead they spend rnd on hydrogen in order to mess up with renewables on purpose.

Braxton1980 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Hydrogen only makes electric vehicles look good and the only alternative. In fact, if this purposeful which I doubt, it probably helped stopped other companies from making hydrogen

satvikpendem 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What does this mean? They have electric vehicles too.

beAbU an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The Mirai is a fuel cell EV. There is no engine. Not sure what your point is regarding engines?