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rconti 8 hours ago

I reinstalled MacOS on a 2011 MacBook Air and it was actually shockingly hard. Thankfully, my machine booted and worked fine, so I didn't need to create a bootable USB stick. From memory:

  - Network recovery boot cannot connect to your wifi because reasons. It'll see the SSID, but won't even prompt for password. It's totally unclear why nothing is working.
  - Fall back to old IOT SSID with ancient protocols
  - You cannot directly download or install High Sierra (the latest supported OS) for reasons I don't remember. 
  - I can't remember how, but somehow you can install Lion
  - Launch beautiful Mac desktop. App store won't work because the certs are too old, or something. Safari won't work, because the supported SSL protocols are too old. 
  - Use a modern Mac to download a DMG installer for a slightly newer OS
  - Copy it to a USB stick
  - Find a USB stick big enough to hold it, try again
  - Plug USB stick into target Mac, copy installer to desktop, run it
  - Now you have a more modern OS that can actually connect to websites
  - Also teh app store works, so you can upgrade to High Sierra using the app store.
But yeah. Man, the desktop was so beautiful and refreshing.
AnotherGoodName 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>You cannot directly download or install High Sierra (the latest supported OS) for reasons I don't remember.

This one’s a doozy because i hit it last month.

The updates are over https. The default certificates are 10year expiry.

I had an elderly relative (who disabled updates because they were scared of the computer changing) really upset everything was broken. Gmail app gave obscure can’t connect messages, almost all websites failed to load. When i went there of course the os wouldn’t update as well. We use https for everything now.

The keychain system is so hidden from users it was hard to even get to for myself. Took a usb key of a set of certificate updates. Harder than you think because when you look in keychain you’re not sure of which certificate is used for which and it’s a pain to find what you need. In the end a transfer from a healthy mac worked enough to get a manually downloaded os update running and from there it was fine.

What a doozy though! If you know of people with old macs that stopped working at the start of this year this is why

JadeNB 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> The keychain system is so hidden from users it was hard to even get to for myself.

These days, keychain access is under /System/Library/Core Services/Applications/Keychain Access.app. That's not intuitive, but, once you know it's there, it's not hard to navigate to it. Was it different under older versions?

conradev an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Apple moved it there in macOS Sequoia, from Utilities, because they were worried it would be confused with the Passwords app. Apple reminds you that you're actually looking for the Passwords app at every turn:

  Tip: You can find all your passwords, passkeys, and verification codes in the Passwords app on your Mac.
https://support.apple.com/guide/keychain-access/what-is-keyc...
latchkey 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

command-space... type "keychain access"

rz2k 2 hours ago | parent [-]

command+shift+g

Then

s<tab>/l<tab>/cores<tab>/a<tab>

Simple!

However, while Spotlight works well when you know what you are looking for, it can still be useful to navigate the filesystem, and it's too bad that Apple hides tools in relatively obscure locations rather than somewhere like /Applications/Utilities.

cosmic_cheese 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Man, the desktop was so beautiful and refreshing.

I get the same feeling when doing a fresh install+boot of both OS X 10.9 Mavericks and Windows 7. They're just so much more pleasant than what we have now.

It'd be nice if modern desktop operating systems took a lesson or two from their past selves.

jcgrillo 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I feel the same way about Unix desktops. The newer stuff just.. looks gross? And it's difficult to use. I'm very thankful for Mate, especially the Alt+F2 behavior, but also the simple menu layout vs some horrible combination of search and popups.

cosmic_cheese 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

GNOME 2/MATE isn't quite to my taste for my personal use, but it is cozy in a way that post-3.0 versions aren't.

hedora 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've settled on XFCE. It just works. You have to turn too many knobs to make it work on weird DPI / screen sizes, but other than that, it's fine.

Recently, I fired up Win 3.11 in 1600x1200@256 mode to run SimAnt, and was pretty shocked at how much better it felt than most modern operating systems.

I kind of feel like the start menu + task bar were a mistake now.

It is nice having the bluetooth + network icon somewhere accessible, but maybe <ctrl>-space should just pop up a thing that lets you type program names + also temporarily hide all windows over 10% of the screen or something? That'd solve the problem of trying to find program manager to run a second program. Also, the windows in windows approach of program manager wasn't great. Still, it's better than most things out there these days. The icons are so... clean.

cosmic_cheese 2 hours ago | parent [-]

In my opinion, the versions of Mac OS with the Platinum theme (8, 8.5, 9) have aged quite gracefully. It's clearly not modern, but it also doesn't feel particularly old or kludgy or anything, and it's quite clean relative to modern desktops.

blackhaz 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

Same as Windows 3.1, and Windows 95, up to 2000. After some point computers began to be optimized for a non-technical person and here we go... Ads, auto-updates, pop-ups, bright colors, all this fucking desktop circus.

jcgrillo 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

For me it's the difference between "this is a computer" vs "this is a computer trying to be a cell phone". I think that's what everything from the last 15yr is trying to be--a phone. And not everything is a phone. On a computer we have a keyboard and a mouse, which are much, much more precise tools than vague gestures on a touchscreen.

EDIT: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this is basically everything that's wrong with the computer(-adjacent) industry. We can appreciate the problem statement by asking "why would anyone want to make a computer be a phone?" The answer is a terminal case of a particularly defensive form of groupthink. It goes something like this:

(1) "everyone is talking about the iPhone" (2) "i need to feel relevant, ergo i must make phone noises too"

then they rub these two neurons together, and since it's the only two they got it isn't hard for them, and this process repeats a few generations and like a nuclear chain reaction soon enough the entire industry is trying to make everything be a fucking phone.

It shouldn't be like that.

EDIT2: As a species we don't play these games with other tools. Cars--some super early attempts had weird shit like tillers for steering but we quickly outgrew that idea and settled on the steering wheel, levers for the other hand, and pedals for the feet. Same with airplanes and tracked vehicles (bulldozers, tanks, etc). Same with machine tools. This stupid game people are playing with computer interfaces these days is fundamentally inhuman.

Keyframe 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's so obvious now that you wrote it, but it never occurred to me as such. New desktops, be it macOS, Gnome, Win.. they all look like damn phones and not computers.

1over137 5 hours ago | parent [-]

If you're under 25ish, you probably had a smartphone while still in diapers. When/if you later learn to use a desktop, it being like a smartphone makes it familiar.

Sucks for us geezers that learned things the other way around though!

ribosometronome 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>If you're under 25ish, you probably had a smartphone while still in diapers

Circa 2004, when 25 year olds would probably be migrated out of diapers, smartphones were palm treos and Sony Ericsson K700s. I don't think they would be great distractions for kids, there certainly wouldn't be any endless Spiderman/Elsa YouTube to lock them in.

DaSHacka 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

More like ~18 and under. The post-2007 zoomers and nearly all alphites are ipad kids, but that drops off dramatically as you get to the older zoomer segment and millennials.

At least, in my anecdotal experience.

mackeye 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

what would you say makes a UI look as if it's for a computer (genuine)? aside from purely(!) cosmetic things, like the skin on the windows 11 taskbar vs. 10. i think to windows <= xp, or tiling window managers (bar hyprland, probably) as the two most popular evolutions of mouse- vs. keyboard-based UIs (plan 9 probably fits well under the former, too). i guess i'd prefer if macos looked like dwm, but i wonder what else would need to change for the friction i feel with it to disappear.

encom 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Your Honour, the prosecution submits "Windows 10 Redesigned Control Panel" into evidence as exhibit 'A'.

DaSHacka 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Information/control density.

These massive ""finger-friendly"" buttons don't make any sense on a traditional desktop with a mouse, but it makes a ton of sense when you realize the designers were likely designing for mobile and/or touchscreen integration at the same time.

jcgrillo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A system which embraces the abilities of the mouse and keyboard without pandering to the limitations of the touchscreen. To wit, you have the ability, with a 3 button mouse + scroll wheel, to trivially select any nearby point in 3-space and label it with any one of 3 colors. More if you also allow your other hand to operate a keyboard. I dare you to attempt this with a touchscreen. I doubledare you motherfucker. Say what again.

7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
CharlesW 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

OpenCore and MIST are two great tools for fans of obsolete Macs. https://github.com/ninxsoft/Mist

skhr0680 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I did this and considered it the easy way of installing an OS on a Mac circa 2011 vs. DVD then messing around updating that ...

> Plug USB stick into target Mac, copy installer to desktop, run it

Apple has a whole page on making a bootable USB, it can save you a step: https://support.apple.com/en-us/101578

FireBeyond 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If the bootable USB even works. Monterey won't, or any out of support OS.

qingcharles 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I bought one of those old Apple brand USB Ethernet adapters for pennies on eBay which can help to have on hand in situations like this.

jamesy0ung 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apple’s EFI embeds an older version of wpa supplicant, possibly you are trying to connect to a network with a newer encryption standard like WPA3. I don’t that’s too unreasonable for a 15 year old computer

muhaccount 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Thanks for the explanation! Makes sense. Unreasonable? To me, no. Makes complete sense given the age. BUT it doesn't support, IMO, "Apple is the opposite of planned obsolescence". Yes, tech nerds can do tech nerd things to make it work...that's not a "plan".

I apologize if that came off harsh. I feel like your comment had a different angle/context than where I took it. Apologies if so.

Microsoft hate is easy to come by on HN (I get it), so I don't like seeing a Apple's coincidental victories magnified in one of the few areas Microsoft does well as a feature.

JasonADrury an hour ago | parent [-]

Things stopping to function perfectly because operating environment has changed drastically over a significant period of time is pretty much the polar opposite of planned obsolescence.

Even devices that don't suffer from planned obsolescence can and do become obsolete.

rconti 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can't remember now -- I have a WPA3 network, and I also have a WPA2 network, and an IOT network. I agree it would be reasonable for WPA3 to not work, but I'm pretty sure I was trying WPA2. Regardless, it's something I ran into.

Svoka 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Downgrading network to 2.4G is probably all they needed.

rconti 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Probably this- my IOT network forces 2.4GHz, whereas my WPA2 and WPA3 networks both use 2.4 and 5GHz on the same SSID.

degamad 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I assume that's what

- Fall back to old IOT SSID with ancient protocols

meant 2.4G and not WPA3.

Gigachad 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My best guess is the macbook is freaking out over the combined 2.4 + 5ghz network. It used to be standard to have these with two different SSIDs. Or you have WPA3 required, though I'd think you'd experience issues with many devices doing that.

dylan604 7 hours ago | parent [-]

My first thought was incompatible version of 802.11[a-z] as well.

greenavocado 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or you can do things the easy way and install a Kubuntu 25.10 and have all good modern amenities without a fight.

rconti 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I started as a desktop Linux user in 1994 and I can guarantee you it would have been more work for me to install Kubuntu for the first time :)

Regardless, this one is going on eBay, so it's probably best for it to be running the latest Apple OS. Whether the $60-or-whatever I get for it is worth the hassle is another story.

yieldcrv 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah LOTS of devices are iced out of wifi because wifi devices started combining the 2.4ghz and 5ghz SSIDs to the same name

and for whatever reason 2.4ghz only devices cant find the SSID unless you if there is a name conflict on the 5ghz frequency

its also less likely that you have access to the router now to change the SSID

FireBeyond 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

LOL, yes.

I just tried to put Monterey on a 2021 MBP and holy hell.

USB installer. "Not supported OS, you can quit, or install in reduced security mode". Reduced security is fine for me.

"Installation of Reduced Security failed." Cool.

"Get the IPSW and do a DFU install". Nah, you can't do that. "Drag the IPSW onto the target Mac where it says DFU in Apple Configurator". Nope. No error, just nope.

Dig dig dig. "You might need to do this from an older computer. Even an Intel MBP running Ventura". Hey look, I have one!

Alright, install Apple Configurator.

"Nope. You need Sequoia to install Configurator."

Jesus wept. This is an OS that is 4 years old, on a 5 year old laptop. Apple, "It just works".

Find an old version of Configurator from some guy on Reddit that zipped one up.

Now we can do an IPSW install.

Good luck, mortals.

morsch 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

Helped an aqaintance set up a new computer with pre installed Windows 11 a while ago. As in Windows was already on there. How hard could it be?

Just getting past the mandatory online account ID took us half an hour, and only worked because she was diligent in writing down her password for Skype 10 years ago which somehow (I realize why but it's insane) now is her Microsoft account and involved in logging in to Windows. Then we stared at a non-interactive initial update screen for another half an hour before it offered the option to postpone updates. I assume if you ship your new computer somewhere without Internet, you simply cannot use it?! And of course all the dumb dark patterns, as if designed by a scumbag pick-up artist.

Then I had to deal with Windows file sharing to copy stuff from the old PC which was exactly as intuitive as it was in LAN parties around 2000 (used mostly the same UI, as well); but at least unlike the new quick share features worked eventually.

Don't get me started on how we got her old printer to work. It's still a miracle to me and involved multiple reinstalls of multiple drivers and finally digging through to a Windows 2000 era dialog listing various printer interfaces and manually selecting the right one that at some point popped up. I was all but convinced she'd need to buy a new one.