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ZoomZoomZoom 4 hours ago

If you're sold on Tailscale due to them "being open" (as they semi-officially support the development of Headscale), keep in mind, that at the same time some of their clients are closed source and proprietary, and thus totally controlled by them and the official distribution channels, like Apple. Some of the arguments given for this stance are just ridiculous:

> If users are comfortable running non-open operating systems or employers are comfortable with their employees running non-open operating systems, they should likewise be comfortable with Tailscale not being open on those platforms.

https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/13717

A solution like this can't really be relied in situations of limited connectivity and availability, even if technically it beats most of the competition. Don't ever forget it's just a business. Support free alternatives if you can, even if they underperform by some measures.

pmarreck 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't understand this attitude. Some humans have to eat and put a roof over their heads sometimes, and extracting consulting fees from open-source work (i.e. the Redhat model) is not always a paying business model. A hybrid model is often the best way to compromise.

Disclaimer: I'm pursuing a similar solution on an app I'm working on. The CLI will be free and open-source (and will have feature parity with the GUI), but charging money for the GUI will also help support that development (and put my son through school etc.)

And by "feature parity", I really mean it- The GUI will be translated into 22 languages... and so will the CLI. ;) (Claude initially argued against this feature. I made my arguments for it. It: "You make a compelling argument. Let's do it." LOL)

The lowest level of it is already available and fully open-source: https://github.com/pmarreck/validate

I'm building something on top of that which will have a nice GUI, do some other data integrity stuff, and also have a CLI. And will be for sale in the Mac and Windows app stores.

wolvoleo an hour ago | parent [-]

Personally, I understand people need to make money but this tends to be a death spiral (enshittification). So I tend to go for solutions without those incentives at all. Or at least use the free self hosted option.

I wonder why you jumped into the mesh vpn market, it's so saturated. Theres literally hundreds of solutions out there (niche ones included for the mainstream ones it's probably 10 or so), many non profit options included. Is there really a niche you can offer that the others don't?

Edit: ah by doing the same thing you didn't necessarily mean a mesh vpn? I don't really understand what your thing does but not vpn.

I was just saying it because there's a new Show HN mesh VPN thing weekly now.

gzread 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

Another way to counteract enshittification is to pay for things, then stop paying when they enshittify.

dblohm7 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

(Tailscalar here) To be clear: it's only the GUIs that are closed source on selected platforms.

ZoomZoomZoom an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I stand corrected.

Although, the problem is not so single-layered. Do I understand the situation correctly, in case of iOS, to not be subject to additional limitations of the platform that restricts the distribution of your products to the extents that the laws of the countries where your business is registered require, all the user has to do is to fork the main repo (which is, thankfully, BSD), build a minimally acceptable GUI, pass Apple certification, publish the app in the app store, and Bob's your uncle?

globalnode 18 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thats actually a good way to split a project up into closed/open imho. Open the functional part so people can see you're not sending data to hq behind their backs and make the boring time consuming ui closed. I like it. Then make money out of a service rather than the software. As we all know, tech people will see a piece if challenging software and go out of their way to replicate it and release it for free, for whatever reasons. So open sourcing that part takes the challenge away.

colordrops 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Does that include android?

jbott 2 hours ago | parent [-]

https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android

colordrops 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nice, thanks.

Lammy 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Being open source means very little when they won't merge PRs, like this one to support disabling streaming one's network behavior to ` log.tailscale.com`: https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android/pull/695

stavros 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Let's stop moving the goalposts. Open source has a specific definition, and "they merge whatever code I want them to" isn't part of it. Just fork the client, compile it, and run it yourself.

Lammy an hour ago | parent [-]

“Just” lmfao

Versus any mildly-technical user being able to stumble into the option and discover they're being spied on in the first place.

drcongo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Open source = I should be able to fork it, change it, and use it

Open source = The maintainers should build exactly what I hysterically scream at them

If I had to choose one definition of open source from these two options, it's going to option 1 I'm afraid.

Lammy an hour ago | parent [-]

Once again confusing Open Source with Free Software.

ninkendo a minute ago | parent | next [-]

[delayed]

lokar 12 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

It seems to have a BSD license, what more are you looking for?

lijok 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

You control what software you install

DyslexicAtheist 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

can you say more about this. I've been considering adding tailscale to some products but if my (nerd) perspective is to survive corporate realism I need more than a 1-liner to justify. seriously curious. Also how would I pitch it to a EU based crowd that wants increasingly less to do with US based tech?

someone13 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

For one, Tailscale is a Canadian company :)

1vuio0pswjnm7 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Support free alternatives if you can, even if they underperform by some measure."

I value _control_ more than I do performance

Better performance is, IMHO, not a reason to sacrifice _control_, but that's just me

If users have control, i.e., can compile from source, then in theory performance improvement is possible through DIY or work of others. However performance is not always the only important issue. Today's commercial software tends to be rushed, lower quality, bloated. Releasing work-in-progress software that requires constant remotely-installed "updates" in place of a thoroughly-tested final product is a norm

Without control, if performance, _or anything else about the software_, is unsatisfactory, then there is nothing users can do

Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Basically a lot of current software teams operate like many modern video game companies. Ship the broken thing, (maybe) repair/improve it as people suffer through the experience.

baq an hour ago | parent [-]

Turns out people see value in imperfect experiences.

Forgeties79 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

There’s a difference between tolerating something and seeing its value. I tolerate lines at restaurants, I don’t see value in them for me.

You’re also operating under the assumption that people always have a choice.

varenc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The CLI version of the Tailscale client on macOS can be compiled from source and installed without the app store:

   go install tailscale.com/cmd/tailscale{,d}@latest
https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/wiki/Tailscaled-on-ma...

So fully available in situations with limited connectivity. The GUI version of the client is closed source though, and it's available as a package or from the app store.

zarzavat 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems like an odd thing to be concerned about. Most of the apps on my Mac are closed source, that little Tailscale menu bar item is really insignificant. You can always control it through the command line if you're really bothered by it. I'm pretty sure tailscale is on brew.

tshaddox 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That justification honestly doesn't sound that ridiculous to me, especially if the closed-source stuff is mostly just platform-specific GUI and integration code. Is there even a practical mechanism to open source an iOS app and then letting users verify that the version they're downloading from the App Store is exactly the same version that is open sourced?

gzread 38 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I thought Apple didn't allow open source apps to run on their devices?

uneekname 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've been relatively happy with Headscale, but now that I have MacOS/iOS users I'm in the process of testing alternatives like Netbird. I was also surprised that the Tailscale Kubernetes operator is not compatible with Headscale.

j-krieger 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The entire idea is that they make money. Limited licenses are ignored incredibly often.

8cvor6j844qw_d6 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Went with ZeroTier and Netbird, they're not too bad.

wolvoleo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Zerotier is a lot harder to self-host than tailscale

drcongo an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I keep hoping to switch to Netbird, but run into the same issue every time for the last couple of years I've been trying it - peers randomly drop of the network. There's a longish standing open issue on their GitHub.

xyst 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I switched to Netbird because of this.