| ▲ | gchamonlive 9 hours ago |
| Infrastructure costs money. There's no way around it. I'm all up for banning ads. But there should be another viable business model to replace it. |
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| ▲ | lich_king 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I think that's revisionism. Social media existed before online advertising. Usenet was quite massive and vibrant, countless IRC servers were maintained by volunteers, web-based forums covered pretty much the same ground as Reddit does today. All supported by the goodwill of individuals, non-profits, and businesses such as ISPs that actively wanted the internet to be interesting because they were making money by selling access to it. The thing that changed in the mid-2000s was that we found ways to not only provide these services, but extract billions of dollars while doing it. Good for Mark Zuckerberg, but I doubt the internet would be hurting without that. |
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| ▲ | justinclift 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > All supported by the goodwill of individuals, non-profits, and businesses ... That goodwill seems to be in short supply since... hmmm the mid 2000's (rough guess). And goodwill like that seems to be honestly not even understood by the generation(s)* since then. * Saying "generations" (plural) there because we've had quite a few people go through their formative years during this time and not just a single clearly defined generation. | |
| ▲ | plagiarist 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The internet was absolutely better without that. I arrived after the original Eternal September, but there have been more and more until now everyone is perpetually online 24/7. Now fucking everything about the world is a hustle to monetize every possible nook and cranny around content. There isn't even content anymore, it's nearly all AI slop as a substrate to grow ads on. I am nostalgic for the era when I found "punch the monkey" irritating. People used to make websites as a labor of love. |
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| ▲ | gpm 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't think we have a right to a business model. Either you figure one out for your particular site (selling access to the website, donations, etc) or you don't and stop and either is ok. |
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| ▲ | gchamonlive 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | For Google, they figured out it's ads... So is it ok? | | |
| ▲ | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ostensibly not, if it is outlawed. | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | But under what principle would you allow advertising, in general, online? That seems like an arbitrary penalty. What harm is being prevented by banning advertising, in general? | | |
| ▲ | Scarblac an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Allowing advertising quickly makes everything about getting more eyeballs and therefore more income from advertising. Users aren't the customer, they are the product. That directly leads to all these addictive dark patterns. | |
| ▲ | Eisenstein 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | All human laws are arbitrary in the sense that they have no natural precedents. We made them up because they make society better when we have them. Sometimes they end up not doing that so we change them as needed. In this case, a lot of people think society would be improved if we created this one. |
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| ▲ | Matticus_Rex 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think we have rights to do lots of things that banning this business model would violate. | | |
| ▲ | gpm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I assume you're primarily referring to freedom of expression? I take the view that it doesn't include the freedom to pay people to carry a particular message so long as the restriction on paying is neutral as to the content of the message, but I can certainly respect the view that it does. My comment about not having a right to business models is in some ways more general. Regardless of whether this business model is protected for some other reason, business models in general aren't, and it's a common flawed argument that they are. | |
| ▲ | kerkeslager 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Really? Name one. Note, neither one of us is a corporation, so "we" doesn't refer to corporations. |
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| ▲ | nkmnz 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Tell this your local sports club that needs a new set of shirts. | | |
| ▲ | kerkeslager 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I support government funding for things that keep the population exercising. It literally saves taxpayers money by driving down healthcare costs. |
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| ▲ | WarmWash 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Please, continue that "etc"... Its been 30 years and no one has been able to continue that "etc". | | |
| ▲ | gpm 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Of course they have. Off the top of my head examples include: Grants in the form of tax dollars (e.g. arxiv). To benefit the authors reputation (e.g. numerous scientists, developers, etc personal sites. zacklabe.com as a useful example). As a hobby (I think aiarena.net falls into this category). To collect data for research purposes (e.g. the original chatgpt release, and early recaptcha)... | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | What could possible go wrong with the government funding media? It’s not like they would take away funding for media that they don’t agree with. | | |
| ▲ | thfuran an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | PBS and BBC are both pretty well regarded and receive public funding. | |
| ▲ | Eisenstein 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why would a government elected in a democracy be less trustworthy than a few private individuals? Do heads of large corporations not have an interest in controlling information? |
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| ▲ | fooker 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That works great when everyone has resources to pay for things online. In practice, this cuts of 80% of the worlds population. | | |
| ▲ | Der_Einzige 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh you mean we can reverse the eternal September? Sign me up! Gatekeeping is good, actually! The “let people enjoy things” crowd is responsibility for facilitating the mass enshittification of everything. Catering to the lowest common denominator is how we got the Burger King guy on spirit airlines. | | |
| ▲ | fooker 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Why are you commenting here instead of a website that gatekeeps commenters? | | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | "You criticize society, yet you participate in it". I have and do pay for website access. That doesn't mean much if the current model flocks to no paid services. |
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| ▲ | coldtea 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If it can only be funded via ads, it shouldn't be funded and is not essential to exist. |
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| ▲ | Scarblac an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Users can pay for services they use. If that's not viable enough, so be it. |
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| ▲ | tokyobreakfast 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| HTTP Error 402: Payment Required was created for a reason. Maybe we need to rethink micropayments. |
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| ▲ | MBCook 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There’s nothing wrong with macro payments either. Five dollars a month to subscribe or whatever. If people get the value out of it, you can get them to pay it. | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Subscription fatigue will quickly limit that. Yes, people used to subscribe to magazines but usually just a few. And by the way, those magazines were full of ads too. | |
| ▲ | presentation 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Half of the people on this site think that subscriptions are evil too, though. |
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| ▲ | kevin_thibedeau 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Project Xanadu will be ready any decade now. |
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| ▲ | ahallock 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Banning ads? That's just so authoritarian and absurd. I hope you never become king |
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| ▲ | gchamonlive 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Regulation is freedom. Think of ads powering the web as current day's lead in gas. | | |
| ▲ | ahallock 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Regulation is freedom? Peace is war, too, I guess. | | |
| ▲ | jack_pp 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Restricting freedom of bad actors means enhancing freedom of everyone else. Say a a kid started throwing tantrums at school. By not punishing/ removing him you restrict the freedom of everyone else. | | | |
| ▲ | NeutralCrane 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Can you think of a singe freedom you enjoy that isn’t in one way or another supported by some form of regulation? | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Can you think of a singe freedom you enjoy that isn’t in one way or another supported by some form of regulation? Regulations can protect freedoms, but they don’t create them. Freedom is inherent. Regulations protect. | |
| ▲ | tt24 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah most of them |
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| ▲ | johnnyanmac 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What we have now sure it's freedom. Let's try having our tax dollars work for us this time. | |
| ▲ | AmbroseBierce 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Regulation took away your freedom when it took asbestos out of your house right? Please be serious. | | |
| ▲ | b112 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Viewing this thread, and the back and forth of it, I need to say something. Advertising sucks in this thread too. By that I mean, people are not speaking plainly, and it is almost ingrained into our societies now. We "sell" our position in a discussion, a debate. For example, regulation does curtail freedom. Completely. However, lack of regulation can harm people. Significantly. Thus, regulation does not give people more freedom, it can however reduce harm. In democratic nations, often judges will weigh these two things, when determining if a regulation passes the muster. In my country, we have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and often judges will determine if a challenged regulation is of sufficient, required public good, whilst not overtly reducing freedom of the individual. This is a mature conversation. Advertising is not. A primary example I've seen in the US, is people calling immigrants "undocumented" on one side, and "criminals" on the other. This is, of course, a reduction in nuance, and designed to advertise a position merely with the words used. And it is a societal sickness. An illegal alien is just that, and using that term confers no judgement, for it is simply fact. There was a time when politics were not first and fore in terms of the use of language. The current trend to be "touchy feely" over use of language, and find great offense at the use of language, does nothing other than stop debate. Reduce discussion. Cause schism instead of collaboration. And there are those around us, which prefer that. Don't feed them. | | |
| ▲ | AmbroseBierce 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Completely fair, but I was responding to someone who doesn't think that it curtails freedom but that is the total opposite, you cannot be free if you are dead (except for a few niche philosophical definitions of the word), so human centric regulations like the asbestos ban are orthogonal to freedom, even if I admit in the strictest definition of the word yes, a regulation can curtail your freedom to harm yourself and hypothetically could curtail yourself from positive benefits as well. But the thing is that statistically the likelihood they were discussing in good faith about this is near none, instead their way of speaking are telltales of a libertarian, where they have a almost religious believe that regulation is their biggest enemy and will never admit that the lack of it could harm or even kill them, I have wasted many many hours talking with such kind of people and don't aim to waste more arguing in good faith giving nuanced responses. | | |
| ▲ | b112 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh I'm not blaming you, but the conversational framework we're being collectively trapped in. |
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| ▲ | AngryData 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I disagree, most advertising is just an attempt at manipulation, not just a genuine "our products exist and you might like them." I would consider not being legally manipulated, especially by financially interested groups, more free than the reverse. | |
| ▲ | coldtea 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Have we come to such a low cultural point that ads are seen as some kind of basic human right? Fuck ads. What's absurd is tolerating them and the damage they do to media, consumers, kids, lesser and/or more honest businesses, culture, products, and so on all the way to the Windows and macOS system UIs. | | |
| ▲ | lobf 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I work in ads... :-/ | | |
| ▲ | coldtea 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think HGttG had a good solution for that involving a large spaceship. | | |
| ▲ | lobf 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I mean really I work in filmmaking. Ads just fund most of my business. |
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| ▲ | forgetfreeman 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Work in something else. I make significantly more doing poison ivy removal than I ever did or was ever going to working in tech. | | |
| ▲ | rogerrogerr 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are you willing to share rough numbers? Totally understand if not, just curious. Been thinking about something like this to get away from the AI force-feeding. |
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| ▲ | gchamonlive 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What do you do? Honest question | | |
| ▲ | lobf 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I work on the production end. I’m a producer and production manager for live-action ads. |
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| ▲ | johnnyanmac 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We're on a startup entrepreneur site. I'm not surprised it's seen as the lifeblood of the industry here. It sort of is. At the same time, this has the same energy of "if we release all the files, the system will collapse". Maybe we need the billionaires to feel some pain sometimes (even if yes, we'll feel more overall). | |
| ▲ | BurningFrog 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Freedom of speech is a basic human right. Ads are speech. | | |
| ▲ | coldtea 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Ads are speech. No, they are not. People have been brainwashed and legal systems have been paid and bought for to consider them as such, just like corporations have been whitewashed to be treated as "persons". In any case, we regulate all other kinds of speech as well: explicit content, libel, classified information, cigarette ads, and so on. | |
| ▲ | tcfhgj 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ads aren't free speech, they are the absence of it, because you are paid for a preselected speech. | |
| ▲ | mr_00ff00 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We already ban tobacco ads on tv (in the us) is their freedom of speech violated? I don’t think you need to count companies being able to put any message out there as free speech. | |
| ▲ | yxhuvud 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No. Ads are paying money to get a platform for that speech. Having a platform is in no way a basic right. | |
| ▲ | Analemma_ 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That’s not even true in the United States (they’re ‘commercial speech’, which carries a still significant but lesser set of protections), never mind in Europe. | | |
| ▲ | Matticus_Rex 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Commercial speech rights are still part of the "free speech" bundle of 1A protections. |
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| ▲ | jbxntuehineoh 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > mmmmm yes thank you daddy may I have some more? | | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | If he's from the US, he's technically correct. That's the high level argument of Citizens United. Granted, that's proven to be a horrible concept. So let's repeal that. |
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| ▲ | forgetfreeman 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Tell that to the tobacco industry yeah? | | |
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| ▲ | ulrikrasmussen 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There should be no viable alternative to the free-because-your-attention-is-the-product business model because that is the core problem |
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| ▲ | goosejuice 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Paying for content works just fine |
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| ▲ | Hikikomori 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sounds good to me. |
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| ▲ | kerkeslager 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's called paying for goods and services. You know, basic capitalism. I think one thing to understand about advertising is that it fundamentally breaks the way capitalists say capitalism works. If you really want capitalism to be about competition to create the best quality at the lowest cost, then you can't have advertising. Advertising inherently drives up cost because it costs, and it allows lower-quality, higher-ost products to outcompete higher-quality, lower-cost products if they are better advertised. And before some advertiser comes along and says, "But how will we find out about goods and services!?" Search engines. Independent reviewers. Word out mouth. Experts. These are solved problems. And more to the point, advertising is literally the worst way to find out about goods and services. Mostly, advertising is simply lies, and when it's telling the truth it's not telling you the whole truth. If you're concerned about people being able to find out about goods and services with any accuracy, then you should be against advertising. Ads aren't information, they're misinformation which prevents consumers from making accurately informed decisions. |
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| ▲ | recursive 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Why? Serious question. The internet was a mistake. |
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| ▲ | gchamonlive 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | How can your question be serious if you already decided the internet was a mistake? I don't think it was. Far from it. | | |
| ▲ | SecretDreams 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Good things get tainted over time. The internet was a good thing. Today, not so much. It's probably a net negative for most youth in terms of cognitive development. Aka a drag on the future of humanity. Maybe it could be good again, but not on the path it's on. | |
| ▲ | forgetfreeman 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What part of an endless sea of SEO spam, AI slop, malware, polarized astroturf, and addictive-by-design walled gardens strikes you as the win? Seriously, where is the win? | | |
| ▲ | gchamonlive 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But the internet is so much more than that, isn't it? | | | |
| ▲ | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Honestly, some of the shit with ClawdBot^W MoltBot^W OpenClaw and molt.church and molt.book has been some quality entertainment, enabled largely by the Internet. And it's AI slop but that only seems to matter when one of them gets miffed about its PR being rejected and posts an unhinged blog post about the maintainer who rejected said PR. And in a "comedy equals tragedy plus time" way, it's pretty easy to laugh at that, too. | | |
| ▲ | forgetfreeman 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | You know there's individuals who will unironically defend any dark pattern one cares to point to so your take here is pretty unsurprising. I feel like this is getting excited over finding a kernel of undigested corn in a random turd. |
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