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redwood 16 hours ago

Incredibly interesting.

Amazing to think at the very moment Europe was entering the Dark Ages, the Vikings were starting to raid, and Muhammad was having his visions, this civilization had built something comparable to what the Roman Empire had done in italy..

WalterBright 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> something comparable to what the Roman Empire had done

Not in sophistication. For examples:

The Pantheon - https://www.pantheonroma.com/en/pantheon-history/ There are no domes in Mayan architecture.

The aquaducts - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct The romans mastered the arch. The Mayans never used them.

Roman iron and steel - the Mayans used copper and gold.

Roman ships had keels - Mayan ships did not. Cannot sail upwind without keels.

Romans used the wheel - Mayans did not.

Romans used papyrus for writing, and would send letters around the empire - the Mayans wrote on bark.

And so on.

gwerbin 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This only makes it even more fascinating. A Bronze Age civilization, contemporaneous with Charlemagne!

lobf 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean, only because they weren’t outcompeted by an old world civilization yet.

leodler 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Doesn't seem nearly as black and white when you consider the Mayans were themselves way ahead of all of Europe with their use of elastomers, effectively creating vulcanized rubber over a thousand years before Charles Goodyear.

Hard to consider this that sophisticated in the twenty-first century but their use of the number zero also predates Europe by hundreds of years.

The Palenque also contains both aqueducts and arches (though not used together in the Roman style): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palenque#Palace

WalterBright 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The Mayans used the corbeled vault, which is much more primitive than the arch. There's a reason people who invented arches never went back to the corbeled vault.

Compare any of the Mayan buildings with the Roman Coliseum in sophistication. I've been through Chichen Itza and spent some time looking closely at the construction of it and the neighboring buildings. I encourage you to do the same.

The Roman "style" of aqueducts used arches so they could cross valleys while maintaining a constant slope. I don't think the Mayans had that, and the Mayan aqueducts didn't seem to be very long, like 200 feet vs the Roman miles long ones.

The Romans also had hypocausts, which were a method of piping in heated air under the floor to warm the house.

jatora 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

still seems pretty black and white to me lol

dyauspitr 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

To be fair, the Romans had so many cultures they could draw their technology from- the Chinese, the Indians, the Middle East, etc. The Roman Empire was kind of a group project with three or four groups.

The Mayans were essentially isolated on their continent.

graemep 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Europe was entering the Dark Ages

The "dark ages" never happened the way it is imagined in pop-culture. There was a genuine decline at the fringes, which includes Britain which maybe why it was so ingrained in Anglophone culture, but also history written by imperialists like Gibbon who thought the decline of Empires an intrinsically bad and regressive thing.

The Eastern Roman Empire went on, the western broke up into successor states. Some things got worse, some things got better, there was progress made (especially for women and people at the bottom like slaves), and the early medieval period laid the foundations for progress later on.

> Muhammad was having his visions

Is that a bad thing? I know less about the history of that region than some others, but I think you need to look at prior conditions in places such as the Arabian peninsula to assess that.

thisislife2 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

They probably meant that Muhammad was on his way to become a prophet and become a future leader who would lay the foundation of the Islamic empires that would span around most of the world.

helterskelter 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The European Dark Ages was also a narrative largely invented by the Renaissance, which was trying to distinguish itself from what came before. Material wellbeing did improve overall, but that was because a huge portion of the population was killed off from the plague, freeing up tons of resources.

WalterBright 8 hours ago | parent [-]

The Dark Ages were a period after the Romans left Europe where there are little to zero records of what went on then.

helterskelter 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Depends on who you ask, it's sometimes used to refer to as late as the 1400's.

pqtyw 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There was a collapse though. The plague, climate change and warfare lead to significant population declines. Especially in Italy.

lurk2 10 hours ago | parent [-]

You are referring to the Black Death and that didn’t occur until around 350 years after the end of what are colloquially known as the Dark Ages.

pqtyw 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

So you both can read other people's minds yet are also entirely ignorant about major well known historical events? Fascinating.

whobre 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There was also The Plague of Justinian in the 6th century which may have been more devastating than the Black Death.

reactordev 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>"Is that a bad thing?"

I think they were just setting the Age of Man here. Time framing it in history so others would know when we are talking about. It's fine.

pessimizer 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The "dark ages" never happened the way it is imagined in pop-culture.

They definitely did. Books stopped being published, even the slightest deviation from the ideas of an all-powerful church and nobility would be progressively punished by censors, mutilation, or execution, and basic reasoning skills atrophied in service of weird nonsense theological arguments that make current postmodern academic culture look reasonable.

We don't know what normal people were doing, technology advanced at a snail's pace, we don't even know where many cities and towns were located. We know far more about the Romans and the Greeks than we know about some parts of Dark Age Europe. We're very lucky that some sense of religious nostalgia for the Classical age (from the fact that the Christian religion was an outgrowth of the late Roman state) kept them from losing or destroying all of the knowledge and documents of antiquity.

The Western world was saved from 1000 years of stupidity by the Protestants. It wasn't that they were geniuses, but that they thought that there was some value to the individual other than service to the imbred descendants of Roman generals. This reinvented the concepts of philosophical disagreement and intellectual productivity in Europe.

The "there was no Dark Ages" revision is from people who would love to take us back to the Dark Ages. Nostalgic for the rule of elites, unfettered by the opinions of a population kept uneducated and on the edge of starvation. People associate the slaver culture of the US South with hillbillies, but they associated themselves, with their elaborate gowns and ballrooms, with a renewal of European culture, with the slaves playing the part of the serfs.

Catholicism is the only reason we didn't reach our current level of technical and intellectual development 1000 years ago. Somehow, with their weakness, Catholics have generally become far more intellectually sound than the psychopathic libertarian elites that own us now. Their nihilism and narcissism will end up giving us another 1000 years of darkness.

We've gone from a history described entirely in terms of nobles arguing with and sleeping with each other to a present entirely described in terms of oligarchs arguing with and sleeping with each other. The last few hundred years will one day probably be described as the "Popular Period." Historians will describe it as the short span of history in which it is trivially easy to find the price of a loaf of bread, or the rules of card games. "At least 20% of the commercial writings from that period have survived."

Supermancho 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The Dark Ages were named in hindsight, with soft start and end dates, purposefully chosen. This period encompassed the Little Ice Age that put Europe in a long period of unusually cold and wet years included volcanic darkening events culminating in 536. That was the canonical "worst year" for humans to live. 4 years later, the Plague of Justinian wiped out tens of millions of people. It was a dark time, to say the least.

pqtyw 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> even the slightest deviation from the ideas of an all-powerful church and nobility would be progressively punished by censors, mutilation, or execution

Medieval Christian societies were by and large certainly less brutal than ancient Greek and Roman states which were based on conquest and subjugation and extreme exploitation of slave labour. While admittedly some things did regress we have to thank Christianity for introducing the concept of universal human right (at least on a basic level) which is not something that existed in any shape or form back in e.g. 0 AD.

> basic reasoning skills atrophied in service of weird nonsense theological arguments

Scientific method was pretty much invented in Christian universities. Of course the model they were operating on was "somewhat" flawed but the methods they invented to reason about it were certainly a stepping stone to

> Greeks than we know about some parts of Dark Age Europe

Yes there was an ~200-300 year gap.

> 1000 years of stupidity by the Protestants

The same people who brought back witching burning (coincidentally a wide spread ancient Roman practice which the church tried to stamp out with various degrees of effort and success during most of the early to high middle ages)?

> Catholicism is the only reason we didn't reach our current level of technical and intellectual development 1000 years ago.

lol... let's not get silly. Just how much technological progress do you think there was between e.g. ~ 300 BC and 400 AD? It was clearly much less rapid than e.g. between 1000 and 1400 AD.

gilleain 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> The same people who brought back witching burning

Seems like it was more complex than that :

> Authors have debated whether witch trials were more intense in Catholic or Protestant regions; however, the intensity had not so much to do with Catholicism or Protestantism, as both regions experienced a varied intensity of witchcraft persecutions.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_mode...

Then :

> The Witch Trials of Trier took place in the independent Catholic diocese of Trier in the Holy Roman Empire in present day Germany ... Between 1587 and 1593, 368 people were burned alive for sorcery in twenty-two villages, and in 1588, two villages were left with only one female inhabitant in each

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trier_witch_trials

However:

> The son of a Puritan minister, Hopkins began his career as a witch-finder in March 1644 and lasted until his retirement in 1647. Hopkins and his colleague John Stearne sent more accused people to be hanged for witchcraft than all the other witch-hunters in England of the previous 160 years From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Hopkins

Note that in Scotland and England, witches were hanged, not burned.

pqtyw 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

Generally it seems it was mostly in areas where Catholicism and Protestantism were in close contact and had compete for believers or in protestant dominated areas.

The Spanish inquisition for the most pairt maintained the medieval view that witchcraft could not exist from a theological perspective and continued prosecuting belief in it as a heresy.

I'm not defending the church, though. They declared witchcraft to be an irrational superstition to delegitimize pagan beliefs a few centuries earlier yet had no qualms about embracing the same beliefs to gain a competitive edge when competing against protestants.

nephihaha 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Dark Ages were actually something of a golden age for the Gaels with some of their best cultural artefacts being produced kn that period.

anthk 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That happened in the Englightenment era too. The censhorship, tortures and whatnot, I mean.

>Catholics have generally become far more intellectually sound than the psychopathic libertarian elites that own us now. Their nihilism and narcissism will end up giving us another 1000 years of darkness.

Yeah, unlike the champions on killing 'witches', you know, the Germanic protestants.

Meanwhile, the Spanish Inquisition was depicted as brutal, but, trust me, you would prefer to be trialed by them that some bastard ruthless lord or worse, the villagers being more brutal than the Church itself.

Read about Alphonse X and the Book of Games. A book from the 13th century, Middle Ages, and yet more knowledgeable than the 90% of the self-called "Enlightened" Anglo-Saxon/Germanic protestants reinventing the wheel after the School of Salamanca from similar origins.

Humanism? Trades and agreements between nations? Modern Economics on value and production? It's all there from that School in Castille.

nine_k 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Amazing, but it's also terrifying that the Maya civilization then faltered, instead of getting onto the exponential development spiral. The great Roman civilization also faltered, but at least the Byzantium continued to carry some of its achievements. The great Arabian civilization was for some time more advanced than European (which was in the middle of the dark ages), but it also did not stay progressing for too long. There's no guarantee that our current "western civilization" line is not going to falter and decline in a similar way.

dzonga 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

seems to me only the Chinese have been able to sort of withstand the test of time

nine_k 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

...if you ignore their going to utter ruin in 19th and early 20th century.

AtlasBarfed 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The Chinese being a continental empire, andin particular bordering the Mongol hordes, have basically been a continuous cycle of growth and collapse for 1000s of years. It can be argued they are headed for yet another collapse.

Scrapemist 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And that’s fine. Another follows after. If we leave them something.

mrguyorama 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Part of the problem is that industrialization was achieved by exploiting globs of easily available resources. But we used them all.

We haven't left anyone something. It could very well be that we climbed the ladder and burned it behind us.

senkora 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is part of the civilizational collapse narrative. It is definitely true in a way.

I think that how much it would end up mattering depends on how well solar tech would withstand a civilizational collapse.

I think that a proto-industrial society with photovoltaics and batteries would be able to bootstrap itself back up to the present state, even without easily exploitable fossil fuels.

(I am not an expert in any of this)

trollbridge 3 hours ago | parent [-]

How are they going to make pv’s and batteries in the first place?

philipallstar 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What do you mean, we haven't left anyone something?

rationalist 9 hours ago | parent [-]

I've heard a few people say we've already drilled all of the easy-to-get oil, so the next civilization may not develop using oil.

But maybe all that means is they will master some other technology that we did not. It seems like previous civilizations have mastered technology that we cannot figure out.

lyu07282 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Colonialism never really ended it just transitioned into a different form, sometimes even very overtly like parts of africa are still using the french colonial currency union (CFA) for example, the IMF keeps the global south in debt entrapment with structural adjustment programs designed to prevent development. etc. etc. we never really left them alone

wahern 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> IMF keeps the global south in debt entrapment with structural adjustment programs designed to prevent development. etc. etc. we never really left them alone

Countries invite IMF assistance. If they wanted to be left alone, all they have to do is do nothing. If IMF loans didn't have strings attached, they wouldn't be able to borrow money, as it's those strings which build bond investor confidence. The entire point of IMF assistance is to avoid being cutoff from international borrowing for being horrible credit risks (again).

The root cause of national debt problems is primarily government corruption, but also mismanagement, often at the behest of populist politics that excuse economic policy failures by, e.g., scapegoating outside forces. The US isn't immune to this problem, either, it just happens that the US had, albeit intermittently, long enough runs of solid financial management (e.g. Hamilton during the Founding) that it could grow an economic base that could withstand intermittent periods of mismanagement without the entire economy collapsing (yet).

Even when a country is dealt a really crappy hand at the outset, it's not irreversible. Haiti is the poster child for crushing debt unfairly imposed by foreign powers, yet the Dominican Republic had the same history, but managed to overcome it. In some instances, interventions blamed for keeping Haiti oppressed were precisely what helped the Dominican Republic flourish. Likewise, nobody hears about the IMF success stories, just the failures; and it's not because the former don't exist or are rare.

WalterBright 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Even when a country is dealt a really crappy hand at the outset, it's not irreversible

Hong Kong was poor until 1965, when they got tired of poverty and switched to free markets. The result was amazing prosperity.

unmole 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> switched to free markets

Hong Kong has been all about free markets since the end of the Opium Wars.

crossroadsguy 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Countries invite IMF assistance. If they wanted to be left alone, all they have to do is do nothing ….

Right. Countries that were stripped of anything and everything (lit-fucking-rally) and then left to fend for themselves when it suited the looters, they were enslaved (in every sense), "do" these things, "invite" these things! Yup. That's exactly what happens.

Just the blacks in USA and the browns in the Indian Subcontinent are backward because they "invite" those backwardness, all they have to do is stand on their feet, and how it is spelled around the West, "pull their weight". So it is.

Ffs!

cpursley 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm happy other people are thinking about this. One of the big stories over the fast years that few know about is a number of the French colonies kicking off the shackles. Can they make it on their own or with their new Chinese and Russian "friends"? Guess we'll see.

philipallstar 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's how amazing Rome was - doing something far larger 1000 years prior to the Maya.

lapetitejort 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All of this without pack animals or the wheel.

renewiltord 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The Dark Ages never happened. They had electric lighting and then the sunlight came out.