| ▲ | pibaker 8 hours ago |
| It is a great irony that the heavy handed push for "protect da kids" is all happening while we learn, day by day, that the richest and most powerful members of our society have no problem hanging out with a convicted child sex trafficker. Rules for thee, free love for me. |
|
| ▲ | alexfromapex 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| People don't realize that all of our problems lately are stemming from lack of truly representative government. Until we find a way to ensure political candidates aren't corrupt and bought off, there will always be corruption, double standards, and lack of accountability from them. |
| |
| ▲ | tankenmate 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Isn't it just so much easier to make sure that wealth isn't concentrated in so few hands? Tax wealth, not work. And before everyone gets upset, tax serves two purposes; 1) control inflation (it in effect burns money that was issued when the govt previously paid for things), 2) disincentivises selected behaviours. and one side effect, when the govt runs a tax deficit it increases inflation, and of course the contrapositive is also true. | | |
| ▲ | jlhawn 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > control inflation I think you are confusing cost inflation with an increase in the money supply. The way the US government funds deficit spending is not by increasing money supply (though it could) but by issuing debt in the form of US Treasury bonds. That is a transfer of money from bond investors to the government. No new money is made. This is distinct from the way that banks issue loans which is by creating new money in the form of credit (but that credit money gets "burned" as loan principal is paid back). So federal taxes do not actually control inflation in the way you are describing. Since federal deficit spending is not financed by increasing the money supply, it can only cause price inflation if it increases aggregate demand over the current productive capacity of the economy. An example would be paying more for healthcare subsidies when there's a shortage of doctors. Or subsidizing demand for housing with more mortgage subsidies when there's a housing shortage. Taxes could also increase inflation if they have the effect of reducing supply of some goods or services (like tariffs do). Edit: I want to mention that the Federal Reserve can and does increase money supply by buying US Treasury Bonds from banks (converting the asset into cash reserves). There are various reasons why they do this but overall it's done with their dual mandate in mind: control inflation and minimize unemployment. | | |
| ▲ | titzer 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > That is a transfer of money from bond investors to the government. No new money is made. All forms of debt are money creation. All loans are money creation. Fractional reserve banking is money creation. It doesn't have to be "oh now we are making dollar bills" to count. | |
| ▲ | direwolf20 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Taxation reduces the money supply. Government spending increases the money supply. | |
| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | adventured 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I want to mention that the Federal Reserve can and does increase money supply by buying US Treasury Bonds from banks (converting the asset into cash reserves). Fun small print. As though that's not the exact mechanism of the brutal inflation the US has suffered the past 5-6 years. The US money supply says it all. There are no other serious buyers for $20 trillion in new garbage paper debt every ten years. It's inflation by currency destruction plain and simple and there are no other paths. It's also why gold is $5,000 instead of $500. |
| |
| ▲ | Terr_ 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Isn't it just so much easier to make sure that wealth isn't concentrated in so few hands? Tax wealth, not work. 1. No, it's not "easier" because it's hard-if-not-impossible to accurately and objectively judge the present-value of many types of assets. Even the case most-familiar to working-class folks, property taxes, nobody really likes/trusts the outcome. 2. We don't tax work, we tax income, because actual transactions between people with "skin in the game" are harder to fake. The extent to which wages are preferred as a subset of income is separate from the wealth-vs-income split. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > No, it's not "easier" because it's hard-if-not-impossible to accurately and objectively judge the present-value of many types of assets. Even the case most-familiar to working-class folks, property taxes, nobody really likes/trusts the outcome. You can easily get within 10% of the "real" value on most assets. And, in particular, assets like stock have a built in ticker to tell you their exact current value. This sort of evaluation happens all the time privately. For example, car insurance companies have gotten extremely good at evaluating the value of a car to determine when to simply total it. The only thing that really makes it tricky is hidden assets or assets with no market value. The likes of the richest people, who I think most of the "tax wealth" people are thinking of, have the majority of their wealth in equity. It's easy to tax the majority of their wealth. This does not need to be a perfect system to be very effective at generating revenue and redistributing wealth. | | |
| ▲ | cj 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The main counterargument: You buy 1 BTC at $60k in 2024. In 2025 it’s valued at $100k, so you pay taxes on $40k gain. Now it’s 2026 and you finally decide to sell the BTC for the original price of $60k. Except you’ve paid taxes on $40k in paper gains that disappeared before you sold the asset. How do we solve that? (Replace “bitcoin” with “startup stock option” if you really want to illustrate the problem - imagine having to pay taxes on stock options you decide to never exercise) | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's capital gains, which we currently recognize on realization events (selling the asset or trading it). With current capital gains, if you sold in 2025 you'd pay the taxes on 40k at ~15% (depending) so 6k. If you repurchased it at $100k and then sold at $60k, you can claim the losses. People advocating for a wealth tax aren't pushing for a tax on gains and losses but rather the total asset value. I've seen 1% and 2% bandied about. So in 2024, you'd pay $1.2k in taxes (at 2%). In 2025, you'd pay $2k. And in 2026 you'd pay $1.2k Though, usually, there's also a minimum wealth paired with the tax. Again, I usually only see it for things like individuals with over $100M in assets. For options, it'd still be the same thing. If the strike price is $1 and the actual price is $60 and the option is vested then you'd be taxed on the $59 per option you hold. This only gets difficult if you are talking about options in a privately held company. But, again, that's not really the case for a lot of the most wealthy who the wealth tax is targeting. | | |
| ▲ | cj 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | okay, another example: You hold Enron stock. You’ve been taxed 5% annually on the holdings for the past 5 years. To pay the tax, you decided to take out a loan instead of selling shares to pay the tax (you want to stay invested). Someone discovers Enron is a fraud, the stock goes to $0 and you go bankrupt because you can’t repay the loans you took out to pay the tax on a (now worthless) asset. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Were you smart, you'd have used your enron stock as the collateral in which case both you and the bank get screwed if the value goes to 0. You default on the loan, you don't have to go bankrupt in this case. Your credit takes a hit for 7 years. But yeah, if you take out a loan against your home and the housing market collapses and you lose your job (ala 2008) you can end up destitute. The stock market is always a gamble and this doesn't make that better or worse. |
|
| |
| ▲ | Kon5ole 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >You buy 1 BTC at $60k in 2024. In 2025 it’s valued at $100k, so you pay taxes on $40k gain. Right, and at this point in the argument it’s also worth asking ”pay taxes with what?” which also quickly makes the idea of taxing valuations obviously absurd. It would force any value creator to sell his creation, which basically destroys the mechanism from which all welfare for anyone in our societies currently originates. | |
| ▲ | Scoundreller an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In Canada you can carry back capital losses up to (I think) 3 years. Of course you lose the time-value of that loss. Can carry forward losses too. Similar things happen with (on the way to) "bankrupt" corporations that have large tax losses that can be applied to future profits. | |
| ▲ | jhasse 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A wealth tax would be like 5% of the $100k, nothing to do with the gains. | | |
| ▲ | cj 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yikes. So even if I store my wealth in cash, you want it to deflate by 5% annually? How do you handle your neighbor who discovers he has a $2m Pokémon card in his closet? Is he forced to sell it to pay the 5% if he doesn’t have the cash on hand to pay the tax? It’s a messy proposition. I’ve yet to hear a clear proposal that doesn’t have sticky edge cases. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > So even if I store my wealth in cash, you want it to deflate by 5% annually? Generally speaking, that's the point. The wealth tax is trying to combat wealth inequality and the only way for such a policy to be effective is if those with considerable assets wealth decreases with time. > How do you handle your neighbor who discovers he has a $2m Pokémon card in his closet? Usually that's handled by having a minimum asset requirement before the wealth tax kicks in. 100M is what I've seen. It'd be a pretty easy tax to make progressive. > It’s a messy proposition. I’ve yet to hear a clear proposal that doesn’t have sticky edge cases. I've given the proposal I've seen in a different comment. Perhaps you didn't see it? But in any case, taxes are always messy. It's not as if you can't refine them with more and more amendments to address different scenarios as they come up. I don't think the "messiness" should be what keeps us from adopting such a tax system. There will almost certainly be a game of cat and mouse between the regulators and the wealthy regardless the proposal. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. | |
| ▲ | iso1631 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Switzerland has a wealth tax while people like you wring their hands and the wealthiest see their wealth increase far beyond anyone elses. In From 1965 to 1995 the richest man in the world had about $30-40b in today's money. This was more than the 1945-1965 era, but way less than the mess pre-war thanks to aggressive action to limit wealth. Today the richest man in the world has $300b, Rockefeller levels before the 1929 crash. | | |
| ▲ | rootusrootus 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Today the richest man in the world has $300b, Rockefeller levels before the 1929 crash. I think it's more like 800B right now. | |
| ▲ | IcyWindows 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We don't know how much money the richest person has because many assets are not publicly traded or disclosed. | | | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | astrange 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > 2. We don't tax work, we tax income, because actual transactions between people with "skin in the game" are harder to fake. Also because taxing income (or other cash) is disinflationary. Taxing assets is inflationary because it forces sales. | | |
| ▲ | usefulcat 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Taxing assets is inflationary because it forces sales. I can see how taxing assets could result in more selling than would have occurred otherwise. But all else being equal, an increase in selling tends to put downward pressure on prices. So I don't see why an asset tax would be expected to cause inflation. | |
| ▲ | jhasse 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Shouldn't sales reduce inflation because they increase supply? | | |
|
| |
| ▲ | fud3748 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sure, it’s easy to tax “wealth”. Except most wealth today is of the type where Alice owns 10 million Y and Bob decided to pay $1000 for one Y. Alice cannot possibly sell her Y for near that price, but now she will be taxed on “wealth” of $10 billion. | | |
| ▲ | AaronM 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If someone takes a loan out against an unrealized gain, that should immediately trigger a tax event. The real solution though is for the legislative branch to not be beholden to those same people and be able to quickly and effectively close tax loopholes as they are discovered. | | |
| ▲ | cluckindan 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That would instantly wipe out most leverage from the stock market, and from a casual bystander perspective, it would be a great thing. | |
| ▲ | Terr_ 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > If someone takes a loan out against an unrealized gain, that should immediately trigger a tax event. How does that work when a house is used as collateral on a loan? Or artwork? The loans are just a symptom, the problem is in the Estate Tax, and those loans are being used as a tool to wait out the clock and then dodge dynastic taxes entirely. Remove the final loophole, and they'll stop playing weird games to get there all on their own. Plus it'll be way less-disruptive to everyone involves in regular loans for regular reasons. | | |
| ▲ | charcircuit 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is not a loophole. When you die your loans get paid off first. The money to pay off these loans would be taxed. It could delay paying taxes until you die, but you can't escape it. | | |
| ▲ | Terr_ 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > There is not a loophole. When you die your loans get paid off first. The money to pay off these loans would be taxed. You're missing the loophole, it's the the "step-up basis" rule, which dramatically affects the amount of tax on that liquidate-to-repay event. 1. Repaying 1 day before the owner dies: Liquidate $X, of stock, which 90% of it are capital-gains, heavily taxed. 2. Repaying 1 day after the owner dies: Liquidate $X of stock, which is now considered ZERO gains, almost no tax. This massive discontinuity also applies when it comes to the transfer of stock to inheritors, and any taxes they might pay for liquidating it. A day before, they get a stock that "has grown X% in Y years." A day later, they get a stock that "has grown 0% in 0 days." > It could delay paying taxes until you die, but you can't escape it. But they did escape the taxes, or at least the "gains" portion of them! For decades, the unrealized gains in growing assets were "eventually" going to happen someday... Until, poof, all gains have been forgotten. |
| |
| ▲ | direwolf20 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The taxable value is exactly how much you borrowed against it! |
| |
| ▲ | njarboe 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Agreed. This would get rid of borrow against gains to spend tax free. But also just get rid of the income tax, it is the worst way to tax, and do a land value tax. |
| |
| ▲ | vintermann 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's a very simple solution to that problem. Tax Alice in Y rather than in $. | | |
| ▲ | AlexandrB 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | How would this work with real-estate? Probably the Y that should be taxed the most when we're talking about wealth. | | |
| ▲ | curtisf 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | A lien on the property? Although almost all jurisdictions already have property taxes, so it hasn't been an insurmountable problem so far |
|
| |
| ▲ | flir 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So it would fix false valuation shenanigans too? I see that as a win/win. | |
| ▲ | __MatrixMan__ 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe we need a debt jubilee then. | |
| ▲ | LadyCailin 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Many countries have figured out a wealth tax, so this isn't an impossible problem. | | |
| ▲ | Saline9515 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | France had it for a very long time, it was very costly to recover, incentivized a lot of tax-evading behaviors, and mainly benefited tax specialists. Overall it was another useless, populist measure that did more harm than good. |
| |
| ▲ | PunchyHamster 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | you can tax stock without taxing inventory. Also the term "asset" exists and is used in accounting | | |
| ▲ | worik 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > you can tax stock without taxing inventory. How? What is the difference between "stock" and "inventory"? |
| |
| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | croes 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Who says you need to tax the whole wealth if it in form of Ys? We all know that 10 million Ys maybe not sold for $10 billion dollars but it gives you enough leverage to buy a social network and name it Y | |
| ▲ | antonyh 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Only in a system where the buyer sets the price. |
| |
| ▲ | nine_k 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | With wealth concentrated in so few hands, it's already not that easy to walk it back :-/ | |
| ▲ | redleader55 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It would be so nice of that tax was actually "burned"(similar to proof of stake), instead of being used to fund even greater inflation. This comes in the form of a huge administration, which gets payed for providing, many times, negative value. Alternatively, it is used to pay social benefits for the sole purpose of keeping the current political party in power. | | |
| ▲ | swiftcoder 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Alternatively, it is used to pay social benefits for the sole purpose of keeping the current political party in power This sounds like a 2-party government problem, not a tax problem. Plenty of countries do just fine spending that money to provide healthcare, unemployment, etc to their citizenry. Only really seems to be the US that views this as a negative | | |
| ▲ | malfist 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh we spend that money, just on weapons or handouts to the welfare class known as the ultrawealthy. | | |
| ▲ | WillPostForFood 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Us does spend the money on healthcare, it is just very inefficient. US government spends much more per capita than any other country. 50% than the #2 country, Germany. https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health... | | |
| ▲ | malfist 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | But that's mostly people/companies spending on health care, not as much the government (because that'd be socialism, apparently) | | |
| ▲ | WillPostForFood 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm just talking about government spending. If you add private spending it is even more unbalanced. Just per capita government spending alone: US $12k Germany $8k UK $6k Medicaid + Medicare is 22% of all US federal spending. Defense is 13%. | | |
| ▲ | malfist 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't know where you're getting your numbers but according to OECD, the per capita spending in the US is 13k. That's public and private spending. I don't think your 12k per capita number is just public spending. | | |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | astrange 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The welfare classes that the government hands money to are elderly people and children. | | |
| ▲ | Saline9515 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | This can be a problem, especially for the elderly. In France the retired (pensions are publicly funded) save 25% of their income on average, and earn more than the workers. France is also the most taxed country in the OECD and most voters are either retired or will retire next decade. It's just another clientelism. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | worik 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I am amazed. What an incredible statement! The USA is very corrupt, true. But getting rid of the "huge administration" and burning tax receipts is not going to solve that. How could it? One of the roles of the state in a modern society should be to ensure no one is left behind to starve, wither and freeze amongst the incredible resources we (as a society) have accumulated. That takes administration. That takes resources. That is what your taxes should be used for. I agree that far too much is used to give aid to the powerful, but the solution to that should not be to condemn the weak. Burning taxes and de-funding the administration is exactly that: condemning the weak. |
| |
| ▲ | mcnnowak 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wealth tax will just create an industry around hiding wealth for the rich | |
| ▲ | ghurtado 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Isn't it just so much easier to make sure that wealth isn't concentrated in so few hands? Except for the fact that, without first solving the problem you responded to, yours is impossible to solve | |
| ▲ | PlatoIsADisease 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This wouldn't stop the AMA from controlling medicine. | |
| ▲ | AlexandrB 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is overly simplistic. Most economic activity is not related to the government at all. Taxation can slow economic growth and inflation, but the government running at a deficit or surplus is neither a cause or a solution for inflation but rather a byproduct of multiple aspects of government policy. | |
| ▲ | Saline9515 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wealthy people own assets, not money. Stealing their assets doesn't reduce the money supply. Elon Musk is "rich" mainly in paper wealth. Taxes raise inflation as they increase the production costs. If you tax too much wealthy people, they will leave, and take their capital away to invest it elsewhere. This as a result will lead to inflation due to lack of available capital for production. | | |
| ▲ | ghurtado 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > If you tax too much wealthy people, they will leave Are we not tired yet of the various versions of the Reaganomics boogieman? When are we going to grow out of trickle down economics mentality? | | |
| ▲ | Saline9515 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The problem is black-and-white thinking that ignores reality. There are different kinds of wealthy people. Some built their wealth through talent and luck. Some inherited it. Some gained it through state cronyism and clientelism. Some own scarce assets (like real estate). Others created new assets (e.g., startup founders). You can dislike Elon Musk, but his owning a large stake in Tesla doesn’t make others poorer. That’s not true of a landlord who corners housing supply in a city. Wealth taxes are essentially revenge taxes without a clear objective. France tried one for years. It was costly to administer, riddled with exemptions, encouraged avoidance instead of productivity, and sustained an industry of tax specialists. The revenue was largely recycled into clientelist spending, sometimes increasing the wealth of the same elites (e.g., via housing subsidies). If the goal is to curb land hoarding, implement a land value tax. If it’s to reduce dynastic concentration, tax large single-heir inheritances more heavily and lower the rate when estates are widely divided. If it’s to reduce cronyism, cut state spending, simplify regulation, and strengthen competition. |
| |
| ▲ | mulmen 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > If you tax too much wealthy people, they will leave You say this like it’s a bad thing. |
| |
| ▲ | simplify 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Since when has raising taxes actually solved any major problem? We have enough taxes, the issue is the corrupt politicians swindling it to themselves and their cronies. | | |
| |
| ▲ | fennecbutt 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >People don't realize that all of our problems lately are stemming from lack of truly representative government. Hard disagree. I fully believe that we are collectively responsible for all of our problems because we are a shitfuck tragically tribal species who, in a world of ever expanding tribe sizes, desperately cling onto tribe sizes that our tiny brains can handle, hence becoming tribal about a myriad of trivial and pointless things like sports, racism, which bathroom someone uses or which policy on immigrants one supports. Dunbar's number. And we're so tied up in these micro tribal problems that we completely ignore the macro tribal problems that affect every single one of us. We're shit out of luck we literally evolved to act like this and there's nothing we can do to stop the behaviour; it's innate. Global temperatures are still rising and will continue to do so. We can try to stop it but we won't be able to. | | |
| ▲ | deaux 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | There is, it's eugenics. We can absolutely select against psychopath traits and select for altruistic, greater good, communal self-sacrificial traits. We have the science. |
| |
| ▲ | WillAdams 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My solution for this is to rate-limit political contributions --- they may only be made in an amount equal to what a minimum-wage worker might reasonably be expected to donate from a week's wages (say 10% of hourly min. wage * 40), as a physically written out check or money order physically signed by hand (at least an "X" mark) and mailed in a first-class envelope with at least a similarly signed cover letter explaining the reason for the donation. If this causes the extinction of the political lobbyist, I'm fine with that. | | |
| ▲ | malfist 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Most of the money in politics isn't direct contribution to candidates, it's PACs. PACs are just groups that do advocacy of some sort. Some do things like advise congress people on legislation they'd like passed, some run ads to campaign for positions or candidates, some advocate for movements. What they're not supposed to be doing is directly coordinating with a candidate, or running ads just for a candidate. But that's a line that has been continually fuzzed. An example of a good PAC might be something like the HRC (human rights commission) that campaigns for LGBTQ rights. | |
| ▲ | ashleyn 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is the central problem with Citizens United. The supreme court tends to be unusually deferential with 1A cases and ruled that infinite money can go into formally unaffiliated PACs. Undoing this would require activist judges or a constitutional amendment. | | |
| ▲ | uncletscollie 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Activist judges? The supreme court is majority activist judges. Why cant new judges undo the old activist judges wrongly decided law? Why are the other new judges suddenly activists? |
| |
| ▲ | jmcgough 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | PACs and dark money have been a disaster for this country | | |
| ▲ | reddozen 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | must be pretty upsetting that sitting president Trump has tens of billions in 2 dark money shitcoins and owns a majority stake in crypto company World Liberty Financial. Just 0.001% of the total sum Hunter Biden was allegedly corrupt over (no evidence). who could have seen this coming.. twice. |
| |
| ▲ | Gigachad 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | These days instead of paying out politicians you just buy social media bots or even the whole platform to push propaganda to the general public so they start agreeing with you. | |
| ▲ | root_axis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What's to prevent them from just ignoring those restrictions? | |
| ▲ | CGMthrowaway 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Bundling would get around that to some extent | | |
| ▲ | WillAdams 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | 1 check would require 2 x marks and 1 envelope and 1 stamp (or other indicia) --- just paying minimum-wage folks for stuffing envelopes and making "X"s would probably result in this being equivalent to a job creation program, and it would probably save the USPS. |
|
| |
| ▲ | psychoslave 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can't find that because any concentration of power means the corruption forces have only very limited surface to pressure, and all the more that surface is actually easy to swap with one molded for even more corruption convenience. People ever rule through direct decisions or are enslaved into alien agendas on which they have no agency. | | |
| ▲ | nicoburns 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In countries like the US and UK with FPTP voting systems, proportional representation would help a lot. As it would make it a lot more viable for candidates outside of the main two parties to stand (and actually have a chance of winning). (although in a UK context, it's looking highly likely that we'll have a "changing of the guard" in the next election with both Reform and Green party making significant inroads at the expense of the more established Conservative and Labour parties) | | |
| ▲ | kypro 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | FPTP will just guarantee that nothing meaningful can be done. Too much compromise in decision making is bad. Personally I think ideal set up is a system which grants quite a of power to a small handful of people, but makes it very easy for those people to be removed. This is typically the model that works best in business and other cooperative pursuits anyway. Throwing more people in the room with different opinions will ensure significant decisions can almost never made. Any policy too far to the right or too far to left will be watered down. The result is that you'll be led by centrists who can't really change anything and anything they do change will be disliked by everyone. | | |
| ▲ | sally_glance 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Great idea, except that I don't think it's easy to make sure we don't grant too much power. Basically this idea is the core of representative democracy. Problem is, the people who have been granted a lot of power are very good at finding loopholes to avoid or remove the safeguards we put in place... | | |
| ▲ | kypro 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | There is a trade-off here for sure... I don't agree so much that the goal is to limit power though, but to ensure any power given to leaders is conditional. I think ideally you want a CEO type leader of a country who has a lot of executive power, but that leader has a board who provides oversight, then ultimately the public are all shareholders who collectively hold the company and it's leaders to account. I'd argue generally speaking we want to grant more power to our leaders than we do today, but make them much easier to remove and have a well design constitution so certain things are legally impossible in the same way a CEO can't just decide they now have 100% voting rights and no longer need to listen to share holders. The solution to a bad CEO isn't to have 10 CEOs. The solution is for the shareholders to boot them for a better CEO. |
| |
| ▲ | watwut 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > FPTP will just guarantee that nothing meaningful can be done. Because congress and senate in America are soooo active ... |
|
| |
| ▲ | 9dev 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Which is exactly why we need a strong federation, and broad participation in democratic process across the bank. Many people can't even be bothered to vote, much less participate in their local, municipal governments. That must change. | | |
| ▲ | psychoslave 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Voting is meaningless if it's not for a program with people charged to implement it being on revokable mandat if they go out of the rails of the planned destination. Instead general elections are theaters were all that is voted is which clown is going to have a blank check. |
| |
| ▲ | drdaeman 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s easy to solve concentration of power, just distribute it more. Nowadays we can have quite large distributed systems. It’s nigh impossible to invent a system that truly formalizes collective will with the goal of optimizing for everyone’s best long-term interests, minimizing unhappiness. | | |
| ▲ | rapind 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | 100% agree, and I think that's sort of what was intended with a lot of democratic government setups. What we fail to realize though (or maybe just remember) is that these systems will ALWAYS be under attack by those who want more power always looking for attack surfaces. (We seem to be under attack by almost all, if not all, current billionaires!) For example in the US, the executive order is a massive problem. Citizens united as well. And for all democracies the natural appeal of strongman politics is a huge problem. Every attempt at government overreach really needs to be questioned. I don't say rejected, just questioned. How will it be used by future powers? Is the tradeoff worth it? Can it be temporary? Do we even have a way to claw it back if it turns out to be detrimental? Is it too subtle and nuanced that the majority will miss seeing it? etc. | | |
| ▲ | quantummagic 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Except it's very easy to "sell" government overreach. Whenever a plane flies into a tower, or flu season is extra scary, people will clamor for strict government authority. With every such event, the government gains capabilities and tendencies that always end up with a few people having outsized power over the masses. | | |
| ▲ | rapind 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, but I don't think it's so straightforward. I think there are bad actors marketing this overreach. Like the surveillance industry for the Patriot Act (tech, defence, telcom, maybe compliance vendors?). I don't think their goal is to create a distopia, but we should always be looking at incentives for large government programs. | | |
| |
| ▲ | ranger_danger 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > these systems will ALWAYS be under attack by those who want more power I think this is an inherent human problem that prevents us from overcoming it... history has proven that the more equal everyone is, and the less individual ownership they have, the lazier and more bored they get. Look at the previous attempts at socialism... people stop caring when there's no goal to work towards, they can't all be doing the same thing and just be happy, because humans are naturally competitive. We desire things other people don't have, like possessions, money, or power. | | |
| ▲ | psychoslave 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Well we can look at attempts at socialism and see that some failed, some were successful: https://factually.co/fact-checks/politics/successful-sociali... But of course success is relative to some cultural values. We could just as well wonder about success and failure in implementation of any political system. The most remarkable trait of humans is cognitive plasticity, so determining any natural tendency that would be more inate than acquired is just a game of pretending there are hypothetical humans living out of any cultural influence that would still exhibit predominent behavioral traits. Competition is a social construct. There are people out there whose biggest concern is keeping focus on enjoying what they are, freeing their attention from the illusion of possession, avoiding any financial/material bounds they can and staying away of contingent hierarchical servitudes. They are also many people who holds desires for both of these perspectives, or any interpolation/extrapolation that they can suggest. | |
| ▲ | rapind 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Is there a way to accept but also limit greed that is reliable and durable? Like a pragmatic meritocracy. We accept that there will be cheaters, and we won't catch or stop them all, but we have some hard limits. Do we care if you stop working so hard once you hit $1b? Maybe we'd even prefer that you did stop working (against societies interest!)? This wouldn't even remotely resemble the communism bugaboo. It's basically saying, yes greed can be good, but at some point it gets ridiculous. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | riddlemethat 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In capitalism, the rich get powerful; in socialism, the powerful get rich. | | | |
| ▲ | gertarrsr 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
| |
| ▲ | jfengel 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If that were true, people would be unhappy with their representatives. For the most part they seem pleased with them. They think everyone else's representatives are corrupt, but in fact they are also doing what their constituents have told them to do. The corrupt ones are us, the voters. We hate each other and send our Congresspeople to do as much damage as they can to the others. | |
| ▲ | root_axis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The issue isn't representation, it's division. The party that won is being well represented with respect to the values of their constituents, whereas the opposition views it as a daily nightmare. These two visions of the world cannot be reconciled. | | |
| ▲ | anon7000 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Representation needs to be less about black/white political ideology and more about the specific needs of various people. Farmers need representation, white color workers need representation, small business owners need representation, but their needs are all different, and don’t really boil down to left/right politics. The government isn’t treated as a forum to collaborate on solving problems, but as a playground for the powerful to create boogeymen that get people riled up. | | |
| ▲ | root_axis 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That makes sense, but for most voters the left/right politics matters more than the economic identities you mentioned. Most people don't care that much about the economy, they make up their minds based on other issues, then find a way to rationalize the state of the economy with that choice after the fact. | | |
| ▲ | lunarboy 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | But the thing is your local gov & economic policies (tax codes, bonds, projects, trade) matter to your actual daily life and retirement far more than left v right. They just play that game to keep you enraged and baited. And people do actually care about gas, groceries, and inflation; they just don't vote in their own objective interest |
| |
| ▲ | overfeed 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > white color workers need representation [...] Don't worry - it's still there under the orange makeup. jk; I think you may have misspelled "collar" |
| |
| ▲ | antonymoose 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I agree while also disagreeing. It feels to me like the Democrats seemingly always get their way while in power while Republican presidents with a congressional majority get little to nothing done. To me they have the classic problem as with non-profits: “If we solve the problem we cease to have a cause to exist.” Taking a look at what’s been accomplished this past year, it’s a lot of token Executive Orders on renaming things, a token deportation effort, no material change on mass legal immigration, nothing happening on the voter ID front. It’s just theater until they lose out in the midterms and they to rally their base again in 2028 to “Save America” or “Keep It Great” or whatever hokum. Democrats will undo it all when the pendulum shifts. | | |
| ▲ | direwolf20 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Democrats always get their way because their way is to do nothing. They rarely roll back all the stuff the republicans do in the term before. | |
| ▲ | efnx 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The Republicans this term have gotten plenty done, it's just nothing that helps average people. Their wins can't be widely celebrated and so they aren't, as much. https://www.project2025.observer/ | |
| ▲ | watwut 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | First, republicans blocked everything including formarly own proposals when Obama adopted it ... ever since Obama. It is other way round, the republican party is getting what it worked for, because democrats are weak opposition. > Democrats will undo it all when the pendulum shifts. It is impossible. Will they give reparations to blue cities? From what money? Likewise institutions - it is easier to corrupt and destroy them then to build them anew. Amd crutially, the right wing supreme court needs ro be enlarged or new constitution written for the bad precedents to be changed. > token deportation effort, The whole thing is bigger size then most militaries. > no material change on mass legal immigration, The whole classes of legal immigrants were suddenly ruled illegal and are violently mistreated. > nothing happening on the voter ID front. Republicans are trying to make voting for blie places harder. | | |
| ▲ | Saline9515 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | On the immigration front, please note that Obama deported more or about-as-much migrants per year than Trump in 2025. I don't really get why democrats oppose this, while they cheered the same policy a decade ago. | | |
|
| |
| ▲ | conception 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I would say one side is being told that they should believe it a daily nightmare, e.g. people on the right really disliking obamacare but loving the aca. | |
| ▲ | reddozen 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The problem in America is that more than half the country does not live in a shared factual reality. Like: * Jan 6 was a fedsurrection, and also simultaneously all innocent people that needed pardoning (Pardoning the feds?) * World Liberty Financial receiving billions selling out American interests worldwide? Never heard of this but Burisma was worse! * The Raffensperger call was no big deal there were attorneys on that call. Trump's personal (now disbarred) attorneys, of course, not there to represent America's interests but how's that the big deal? * Also who's Raffensperger? But did you see those boxes under the table! What do you mean the clip is longer than 6 seconds that's all I saw on the infinity scrolling apps. | | |
| ▲ | rchaud 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is one reality that's undeniable: that political donations by individuals are strictly monitored and can land you in jail if violated, but PAC money is untraceable and unlimited. That fact alone has led to stacking the deck in favor of lobbyists and monied interests at the expense of the electorate and national institutions. | | |
| ▲ | reddozen 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I assume you mean Citizens United v FEC. Should they not have been allowed to release their documentary? Its not an easy question and there's a reason none of the dissents directly address Roberts' opinion. | | |
| ▲ | 5ykh 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m not a lawyer and won’t address the merits or lack thereof of the ruling on the particulars of the case. The effect of the ruling was a sweeping change in money in politics. It effectively legalized an oligarchic take over of governance. It’s a fact that money and advertising largely determine outcomes in battleground races. Tipping those races, along with the structural power imbalance in federal politics, means that control of the government is relatively easy and cheap. https://rooseveltinstitute.org/publications/15-years-after-c... | | |
| ▲ | reddozen 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't know if you read your own source but it's incredibly unconvincing "research" slop. In their "case study" they just point to a particular race and the money the candidates received and infer it's bad. No analysis if the politician was acting against their constituents interests... Pretty embarrassing paper to put their name on. I can see why there's no coauthors. Also they conflate political ad spending with issue awareness ad spending, which is a borderline malicious. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | runjake 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This comment is not well-formatted and a bit "zomg", but an important mention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Raffensperger_ph... This is the infamous call where Trump, according to the recorded tapes, tried to overturn the 2020 presidential election results by demanding that Raffensperger "find 11,780 votes". |
|
| |
| ▲ | patrickmay 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Power will always attract the corrupt and corruptible. The problem is the power. Reducing the size and scope of the federal government and devolving power to the states, communities, and individuals is the only way to minimize the negative effects of humans with too much authority. | | |
| ▲ | simplify 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Power is not the problem, because power exists regardless of who owns it. We the people actually have a relatively high amount of power in our states and communities. We just don't use it. The real solution is to convince the masses to pay attention, which is harder today than it ever was. | |
| ▲ | AppleAtCha 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This assumes that govt and individual families are the only players in the game. Now as in other historical periods large corporations hold arguably more power than either of those groups and reining in govt leaves little obstacle to them consolidating even more power and wielding it globally. | |
| ▲ | ranger_danger 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Reducing the size of the government just makes it where billionaires and corporations control everything instead, which we're already seeing now. You'd need a way to reign in their power/wealth as well. | | |
| ▲ | eikenberry 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | +1... Reducing government is part of power reduction, not the sum total. To reduce the size of government you need to reduce the size of things it manages. So, for instance, anti-trust would need a huge buf in enforcement to eliminate concentrations of power in business. I'd think strongly progressive inheritance tax would cover the rest. |
| |
| ▲ | worik 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Abolishing private property is another way of defanging power | | |
| ▲ | 837263292029 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Let's start with your private property. | | | |
| ▲ | eikenberry 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Has this been tried successfully anywhere? Seems like mostly a dead end as long as we have resource scarcity. |
|
| |
| ▲ | beloch 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Implement campaign spending limits, regulate or ban PAC's, and commit to an ongoing effort to stomp whatever new methods big-money comes up with to influence politics. We do most of this in Canada and our leaders seem to be less influenced by big money. (Nevermind that we recently elected a billionaire PM...) The vast expense of running a U.S. style election campaign virtually guarantees that U.S. politicians are all bought and paid for. | |
| ▲ | titzer 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The only thing that changes behavior is consequences. If there is no justice system enforcing the law and its requisite consequences, then there is no justice. I don't think those in power understand the anarchy that their intentional dismantling of the justice system has and will cause, and how the blowback from that anarchy will be visited upon them. | |
| ▲ | recroad 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's a representative government, it just represents Israel via AIPAC. | |
| ▲ | wwweston 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You either win big enough under the current system, with its system problems, or you never win to improve it. Imagining better systems before doing that is just a form of xkcd’s nerd sniping. And the biggest challenge to representative government might well be that most people are terrible at engaging it productively. Voting is the bare minimum and most people don’t vote (let alone organize and lobby effectively). Some significant portion of those that do vote can’t correctly draw a line between policies they’d like and candidates who intend to work on delivering, and that’s before we get to the portion of the population that may not correctly anticipate policy outcomes or even really understand policy as a concept. The system has actually been functioning surprisingly well considering, and as catastrophic as recent elections could be seen as, the outcome arguably represents a reasonable degree of fidelity to the input from the electorate. If we still hold free and fair elections, the task of those who want representative government is to change enough of the electorate first. | |
| ▲ | Affric 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What is interesting is that, as demonstrated by mass media and social media’s influences over our politics in the last century we can be motivated, but we have let power become too concentrated in the wrong hands. China’s qualifications for influencers thing is interesting by fundamentally doesn't address the power of social media publishers. | |
| ▲ | jimbokun 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Post Citizens United, that’s going to require a Constitutional amendment. And the corrupt, bought politicians are the ones who would need to ratify it. | | |
| ▲ | asdff 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Let's not act like they weren't corrupt and bought before Citizens United | | |
| ▲ | parasubvert 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is unhelpful fatalism and actively dissuades reform. Not all politicians are "corrupt and bought". And further, there is an enormous difference before and after this Supreme Court decision. It costs money to run for office. Before Citizens United, it was hard, limited, traceable donations, from individuals. No corporations, no soft money, no legal dark money. Now money has flooded in, with far less accountability. |
| |
| ▲ | uncletscollie 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
| |
| ▲ | yieldcrv 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The US should have direct referendums at the national level, just like most of us have at the state level Most - maybe all - hot button issues have much more moderate takes than any party national committee positions, in the bluest of blue states and reddest of red states the actual individuals have much more consensus on every issue Whatever the founder’s initial reasoning or lack of inspiration for national referendums for federal law passage doesn’t seem to be relevant today | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think this is entirely the wrong way to think about this. While better elected representatives and officials would always be a nice thing, what we need is to ensure that we design systems around them that mitigate their corruption and double standards. We were even (collectively, across humanity) doing better and better at that until not that long ago. | | |
| ▲ | bsenftner 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | We need regulations on the politicians because, clearly, their "public good use" far exceeds their contribution back. | | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I didn't really mean "regulations" but more a political (and civic) system in which a given individual's corruption etc. gets caught quickly and/or there are too many disincentives for them to to do much based on it. |
|
| |
| ▲ | colechristensen 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can't have truly representative government if the people voting don't understand or care that they're not being represented particularly well. It is apparently not much of a risk to your seat if you don't represent the interests of your people because the people have become tribal and it is only their tribe they vote for with very little effective criticism of the leaders in their tribe. (it's not that complaints are nonexistent, they just don't result in anything) | |
| ▲ | asdff 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >there will always be corruption, double standards, and lack of accountability from them The hard part is this has been true going all the way back to the stone age ever since we elevated the first person arbitrarily to chief. There has been no model of government developed since that is immune to this. I really don't know how to get around this and it depresses me that we will always be held back by the slimiest who abuse systems. | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's a lot of work to do. It ultimately works off the issue that most voters are disengaged, while the most interested parties are very engaged. Corruption is happening out in the open and there's still so many people shrugging in response. One good push back from everyone all at once would fix a lot of things quickly. But that implies the people are united and not instead driven into manufactured conflict by said interested parties. It's basically enough that we're in a post truth era as of now. I don't know how we come back from that Anyways, repealing Citizens United would be a good first step. | | |
| ▲ | 0_____0 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [warning/apology - this comment regards USpol specifically] Our media landscape has people focusing on basically everything except what we need to be. I am not sure that liberal democracy will survive the information age. So much effort goes into the process of argument, we aren't as a whole really thinking about how to solve our very real problems. China's technocratic rule, after some, shall we say, growing pains (hunger pains? Is it fair to say that when millions of people starved to death?), seems a lot better at creating a coherent strategy for economic growth and international soft power. One of my great fears is that democracy was the right model in the past decades and centuries, but that it won't keep up with the laser focused technocratic rule that a competent bureaucracy can potentially muster. | | |
| ▲ | vharuck 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Authoritarian governments are always more efficient than democracies. Their flaw is that citizens have no say in what goal will be efficiently pursued. When a technocratic authoritarian is in power, things improve overall (but there are still many "inefficient" people left behind or crushed). But when a cruel or incompetent authoritarian takes control, things hit lows that sound democracies wouldn't allow. Lows that take generations to recover from. | | |
| ▲ | 0_____0 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | While I like your message here, I don't think authoritarianism is actually more efficient (efficient at what?) usually. Because often it goes hand in hand with economic and social extraction, which is inherently inefficient. But I take and am a bit heartened by your main point - while the best case authoritarian regime can plan and execute more quickly and with greater efficiency than representative government, the worst case authoritarian govt is much much worse than the worst case possible with a functional democracy. | |
| ▲ | watwut 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They are not more effective. They basically always end up as highly currupt ineffective mess. |
| |
| ▲ | thwarted 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > China's technocratic rule…seems a lot better at creating a coherent strategy for economic growth and international soft power. This requires that those in/with the power actually have altruistic, or at least not solely selfish, concerns. How rampant is government/bureaucratic corruption in China? I elided the population starving part in order to not distract from the possibility of truly selfless governance strategy. It may very well be the case that millions starving is considered "acceptable losses" ("the needs of the billions outweigh the needs of the millions") in executing on that strategy. Which, make no mistake, would be truly tragic and should be undesirable. But that not everyone sees it that way is really what we're fighting against. "I have a machine that feeds everyone, no one shall go hungry." "But mah profits!" "You only need profits so you yourself can eat, but that's now a solved problem" "But mah profits. How will we know who's winning?" | | |
| ▲ | 0_____0 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Corruption definitely happens in China but even as a US person I can think of at least one major case where there were very real consequences for that. How many US govt officials have been executed for corruption? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Zaiyong Millions starving during the Great Leap forward was very much NOT part of the plan, it was the result of some very misguided agricultural practices. My point is that in the same period, China has gone from "oops we accidentally caused the 2nd largest mass starvation event in history" to "we have the largest high speed rail network and manufacturing base in the world and nobody is even close." While the US went from "what's a postwar superpower to do? How bout some megaprojects?" To "I'm drowning in entitlements and houses now cost the same as the average lifetime GDP per capita". | | |
| ▲ | Saline9515 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | China is so technocratic and efficient that it has been faking growth and population statistics for the last decade, hides youth unemployment numbers, and raids due diligences companies who may provide external investors more realistic data about the economy or local companies. Also, China has its own real estate bubble, so it is not immune to those issues. At least in the US people have some recourse at the individual level. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | michaelt 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It ultimately works off the issue that most voters are disengaged, while the most interested parties are very engaged. That, and the fact winning a senate seat costs on average $26.53 million [1] You can't self-fund, that's 152 years of your $174,000 salary. Where do you suppose the money comes from, and what do you suppose motivates the donors? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_finance_in_the_United... |
| |
| ▲ | leptons 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Until we find a way to ensure political candidates aren't corrupt and bought off The US elected a convicted fellon, the corruption is a feature. | |
| ▲ | octoberfranklin 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Term limits for congress. | | | |
| ▲ | dbspin 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sortation. | | | |
| ▲ | einpoklum 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > lack of truly representative government. There is no such thing as (truly) representative government. To the limited extent that groups of people can at all be represented (which is a whole other questions) - governments are generally not about doing that. Yes, many world states have electoral systems where people can vote for one of several (lists of) candidates or parties, but the claim that in the normal and uncorrupted scenario, the elected properly represent the populace/citizenry - does not, I believe, stand scrutiny. Which is to say, don't try to "find a way in which candidates aren't corrupt and bought off"; that is in the core of democracies in money/capital-based economies. At best, the elected will act according to some balance of influences by different social forces, some being more popular and some being powerful and moneyed elites or individuals. If you want that to change, the change needs to be structural and quite deep, undermining state sovereignty and exchange-based economy. | |
| ▲ | dyauspitr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, our problems are much bigger in that we have a populace easily led by tribal sensibilities. Theses scumbags aren’t coming from nowhere, we’re electing them to these positions. | |
| ▲ | netbioserror 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Colossally awful take. Corruption is an intractable problem in human history. Power is a magnet for the worst people, and every system we invent can be exploited in innumerable ways. The only variable is how long the people of any individual society can remain free and prosperous before their decline. Temporary recoveries have only happened by lopping off massive chunks of empire, implementing extreme monetary reforms, and/or a switch to full autocracy. Every other outcome is terminal decline. |
|
|
| ▲ | ozgung 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s not irony. It’s by design. Politics is for controlling people. Rules don’t apply to rulers. No one cares about children or anything. Even manipulating the public opinion is outdated. Technology helps them to control. Freedom is an illusion today. We are not free anymore. |
| |
| ▲ | kllrnohj 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Politics is simply how a society governs itself. Whether or not a society values the rules being enforce to rulers is itself politics. Dismissing politics like this is how we end up with exactly the problem of rules not applying to rulers. Get involved with politics. Be part of politics. That is how freedom is earned & maintained. | |
| ▲ | athrowaway3z 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Technology might be one half, but the other half is demographics. 40 years ago you'd have more ideals, riots, and young-minded ideas. Nowadays, our societies are old on average (especially the politically powerful). Older people on average are more inclined to pick whatever solution they feel promises a bit more security. | | |
| ▲ | themafia 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > 40 years ago you'd have more ideals, riots, and young-minded ideas. The government generated most of those too. As technology became more capable they utilized it more but that doesn't mean they were standing around with their hands in their pockets prior to that. > Nowadays, our societies are old on average Do they have an unfair access to technology? If not then does this actually have any impact? > Older people on average are more inclined to pick whatever solution they feel promises a bit more security. In your experience perhaps. I doubt the reliability of this logic. |
| |
| ▲ | rglover 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The gates have already been closed at the pasture's edge. Moo. |
|
|
| ▲ | ActorNightly 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What do you mean day by day. We have known this to be the case, for quite some time, yet majority of the public still thought that a convicted felon was good enough to be president. |
| |
| ▲ | dijit 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think that's the exact irony that the parent is eluding to. It's all about the kids, unless, idk, you're rich enough? | | |
| ▲ | kelseyfrog 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Andrew Carnegie's The Gospel of Wealth[1] lies squarely in the center of the foundational belief that those who've acquired such means have done so because they reflect "the highest type of man, the best and most valuable of all that humanity has yet accomplished." It takes only a brief glimpse of the real world and its most wealthy to recognize that an abundance of virtue is not what's reflected in reality. In fact, the benevolence Carnegie describes, serves as a smoke screen for cruelty, degenerate acts, and the slaughterhouse of the soul. We've sold out every moral for a bait and switch and it's well past time to reneg on the social contract. 1. https://www.carnegie.org/about/our-history/gospelofwealth/ | | |
| ▲ | CGMthrowaway 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Andrew Carnegie wrote and lived in an era without an income tax. In that era rich men were expected to be broadly philanthropic, to steward their wealth for the good of the common, to act with generosity and responsibility. Because the state did not provide a safety net, the wealthy faced immense social pressure to act as stewards of the public good. In today's era those expectations do not exist. The public-facing, gilded age palaces, which by their public nature tend to enforce good behavior by forcing them to physically interact with the society they profited from, have been replaced by private, gated bunkers behind tall hedges blurred out on Google Maps. The wealthy wear jeans and hoodies to "blend in" or appear common, when they are very much not. A rail tycoon in a 10X beaver tophat might offer a beggar something on the street. A tech mogul in a hoody might not even get solicited. Income tax - and broadly speaking many other changes to the social contract between upper and lower classes, like the bureaucratization of welfare - has not just allowed but incentivized the wealthy to shirk the responsibilities of old, and outsource their morality to a (corrupt, as many have pointed out) government. And it's not good. There is no honor in giving anymore. | | |
| ▲ | direwolf20 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | They can do this because we crave the dollars they have. If we suddenly, collectively, decided Elon's dollars and Tesla stock were worthless, he'd have to come out and go to the food bank. | |
| ▲ | kelseyfrog 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If we repeal the income tax, virtue will return to the wealthy. Is that something you believe? | | |
| ▲ | CGMthrowaway 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Improbable. It's hard to un-ring a bell once rung. Was adding critical context to the Carnegie citation. | | | |
| ▲ | coupdejarnac 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you really asking this? For real? You're shooting the messenger. |
|
| |
| ▲ | rob74 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think you've got that quote backwards. In full it reads: > Unequally or unjustly, perhaps, as these laws sometimes operate, and imperfect as they appear to the Idealist, they are, nevertheless, like the highest type of man, the best and most valuable of all that humanity has yet accomplished. Or (to shorten it a bit): "These laws (of capitalism) [...] are nevertheless [..] the best and most valuable of all that humanity has yet accomplished". So this is only an unlimited belief in the virtues of capitalism, not in the virtues of rich people. From the introduction: > Carnegie believed in giving wealth away during one’s lifetime, and this essay includes one of his most famous quotes, “The man who dies thus rich dies disgraced.” Carnegie’s message continues to resonate with and inspire leaders and philanthropists around the world. I really wonder what Carnegie would think about his successors dismantling USAID? | | |
| ▲ | kelseyfrog 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I believe the connection he was making was that the laws, results, and people profiting from the system all represent the best of humanity. That said, whether read forwards or backwards, the point still stands. I appreciate your attention to detail. |
|
| |
| ▲ | hn_acc1 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's all about the kids when you need a certain segment of the population to vote a certain way. | |
| ▲ | echelon 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's never about kids. If they cared about kids, they would have school lunch and wouldn't starve. It's about control and monitoring of civilians. And creating a dragnet to ensnare any new politicians and business leaders. Freedom of speech is insufficient. We need freedom of privacy and from monitoring and tracking. |
| |
| ▲ | notjtrig 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Only 22% of the public voted for Trump. | | |
| ▲ | otterley 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is a completely useless statistic, and I'm not even close to being a Trump fan. |
| |
| ▲ | rootusrootus 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That is the uncharitable interpretation. I think it is at least as likely that voters consistently get to chose between a turd sandwich and a giant douche, so it will always be possible to accuse them of preferring a terrible candidate. Also, nitpick: it was neither a majority of the public, or a majority of the eligible voting population, or even a majority of the people who voted. I think a really good first step, at least in the US, towards making our candidate selection better would be to mandate open primaries. | | |
| ▲ | Gigachad 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think your interpretation is uncharitable. One of the options is a fraud and a pedophile and the other wasn’t. They absolutely were not equally bad. | | |
| ▲ | rootusrootus an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I think he's guilty, and even so I don't believe we actually have anything that proves him a pedophile any more than Bill Clinton, for example. Continuing to call him a pedo just looks like more partisan politics, which uninterested people (who still bother to vote) tune out. Dems need to figure out how to run more interesting candidates. In 2024 they thought everyone wanted status quo, and it turns out that as housing prices go up and up, along with wages staying flat, people want to blow things up. And Trump seems to be that guy for them. | | |
| ▲ | thrance 15 minutes ago | parent [-] | | We absolutely have proof that Trump is, in fact, a pedophile. Still doubting that is weirdly delusional, more probably plainly dishonest. > Continuing to call him a pedo just looks like more partisan politics, which uninterested people (who still bother to vote) tune out. Exactly the contrary is true. The Epstein stuff has caused an unprecedented dip in Trump's popularity. The more it's talked about the angrier the people get at him and his friends. > Dems need to figure out how to run more interesting candidates. Indeed, here's hoping for a true Democratic Tea Party, let progressives run the show. They've proved more than capable of motivating the masses, in New York and other places... |
| |
| ▲ | DaSHacka 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're right, the other was Kamala Harris, who was far worse. |
| |
| ▲ | Jcampuzano2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is the most uncharitable take and common of the people who try to play the middle or wave away their decision to vote for Trump. The decision was quite literally between a known criminal and already even at the time known to be likely pedophile (and now it's basically a fact) and someone who is none of that. | | |
| ▲ | rootusrootus 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | In my case it is a charitable take of someone who appreciates that painting his political opponents as evil incarnate is not going to bring about a political change. There is nuance in how people form their ideological priorities and how they end up making the final decision on who to vote for. Recognizing that is very important if we want to, you know, win any more elections. Trump would be approximately dead last for my vote if you gave me an arbitrarily long list of terrible candidates. The dems consistently push everyone even a little bit impure from their coalition, which is why they have had difficulties winning slam-dunk elections. And instead of calling everyone who voted from Trump evil or stupid, they refuse to look in the mirror and see if there is anything they could change about their own pitch that would make it more appealing. |
| |
| ▲ | ActorNightly 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >a turd sandwich and a giant douche Ah yes, the famous conservative talking point of "well yeah, my side is bad, but your side is just as bad". From a pure performance standard across economy and quality of life, its pretty clear that Democratic policies always end up as net positive, while conservative policies may seem good in the short term but allways end up bad long term. But to see this you have to understand politics, and understand the effects aren't always immediate. However, the situation this time around is way simpler. Basically in 2016, you could be excused for voting for Trump. Things were going well enough that mattered, Hilary was not the best candidate, and maybe a little mix up needed to happen. In 2020, if you voted for Trump, you are absolutely clueless about politics and have no idea what is actually good for the country, but at least its all political reasons. In 2024, it wasn't about politics - it was a choice between either allowing a convicted felon who tried to overthrow US government (with Supreme Courts saying he did nothing wrong mind you) back into a position of power, or not. As it turns out 7/10 people who either voted for trump or didn't vote are ok with the rich and elite getting away with what they want. So generally when people act surprised about anything that happens in regards to Einstein or any other things that Trump will do, like interfere with elections and possibly go for third term, just remember that those people don't actually care. This is what they want. | | |
| ▲ | socalgal2 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > From a pure performance standard across economy and quality of life, its pretty clear that Democratic policies always end up as net positive, All one has to do is point at San Francisco as this us provably false. Dems have been in charge their for decades and it's arguably not working. | | | |
| ▲ | rootusrootus an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > conservative talking point The problem with your accusation is that I am a long ways from conservative, and what I said is a pop culture reference straight from South Park. > In 2024, it wasn't about politics It wasn't? The dems took a candidate so weak in charisma [0] that she lost her first primary to another candidate also historically weak in charisma (Biden) who himself tried multiple times to run for president and only won in 2020 because he barely edged out the most historically unpopular president in memory. The cherry on top was that she didn't have to win a single primary to become the nominee, and her party had just spent months insisting that the guy at the helm, who promised to be a one term president, was losing his already unfortunately weak ability to speak clearly before realizing how badly he was going to lose to Trump and just gifting the nomination to his VP. What a shit show. As a long time democrat I remain astounded at how horridly incompetent the leadership is and the lengths to which rank-and-file supporters will go to make excuses for them. Followed closely by the insistence of democratic voters to focus on narrow cultural priorities that resonate with a small number of people and don't move the needle at all for like 80% of the population. What on God's green earth happened to being, you know, progressive? What about labor, or healthcare, or affordable groceries, housing, etc? [0] yes, charisma isn't the ideal requirement for a presidential candidate, but failure to recognize that this is basically how all presidents win election just means you are going to lose more often. Plus, we still have people insisting that Kamala lost because she was a woman. No, she won because she sucks as a political candidate. Hillary had precisely the same issue. There are strong women who communicate well who would perform much better, but they have thus far decided to avoid the circus. |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | Havoc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Rules for thee, free love for me. No, only one rule - kill internet pseudo anonymity because it’s dangerous in the same way as large gatherings are. The age circus is just convenient pretext / collateral damage depending on perspective When the Gen Z protests happened and internet was cut…wasn’t to protect innocent from porn |
| |
|
| ▲ | mrtksn 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It is kind of obvious that once someone reaches such a power they should be monitored all the time. Criminality among the rich and the politically connected is off the charts. It’s way beyond any group of immigrants for example that these same people are trying to demonize. Chat control? Every single politician should have that on their phone. |
| |
| ▲ | hacker_homie 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think politicians should be the least privileged people in a society except those in prison.
Any protections or exceptions for them alone are unconstitutional. | |
| ▲ | dolebirchwood 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | An idea I like to bounce around is that everyone at the highest offices of power (not going to define that here) should be forced to live in monastic conditions during the term in which they hold power. You are fed, clothed, and housed by the state. You have no luxurious amenities, no exercise of personal wealth, no contact with anyone other than for official business. If you honorably discharge your duties to the completion of your term of office, you will be compensated for life to such a degree that you will never have to work again. There's a lot of nuance that I'm glossing over, but the gist is that holding powerful positions ought to require severe personal sacrifice, but you will be handsomely rewarded after-the-fact if you bear that burden with dignity. | | |
| ▲ | digiown 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > handsomely rewarded after-the-fact The other more important effect is that it neuters any kind of quid pro quo type of corruption, if paired with a big enough stick. It's hard to bribe someone if they will get to live in luxury for the rest of their life anyway, and where discovery of the deal would land them in prison for life. |
| |
| ▲ | agilob 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They will have that exception on their phones. |
|
|
| ▲ | hkpack 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| These are literally _the same people_. Musk was hanging out with child sex trafficker and is allowing kids to create porn with grok on X. |
| |
| ▲ | omnimus 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | He is allowing a lot worse version. Allowing adults to create child porn with grok on X. | |
| ▲ | ekianjo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Funny how all of you guys focus on Musk but no mention of Reid Hoffman anywhere who was far more involved with Epstein. | | |
| ▲ | deaux 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Indeed, _so_ strange that a lot of attention goes out to the wealthiest individual in the world. Didn't know that Reid Hoffman knowingly released a CP generator on a platform with hundreds of millions of users either. | |
| ▲ | letmeinhere 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | He sucks too. Not everyone is working backwards from their team sports fandoms. | |
| ▲ | hkpack 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Look, I would really like to mention everyone every time, but it is so tiresome to be honest, all of these guys are awful and all of them are connected if not through epstein, then through some other private club. | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
|
| ▲ | Arubis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And, further, that all the child rape was coordinated, for the most part, in the clear over fucking Gmail. But we have to decrypt everything to protect the kids. |
|
| ▲ | wnevets 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > that the richest and most powerful members of our society have no problem hanging out with a convicted child sex trafficker. In most cases a lot more than simply "hanging out". |
|
| ▲ | nickpinkston 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm fine with the free love and debauchery, but just really keep it to adults and be safe. |
| |
| ▲ | handedness 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | 'I'm fine with extreme indulgence, but just really keep it restrained and be safe.' By definition, debauchery with durable constraints can't be normalized, as its appeal is the overstepping of norms. There's also an argument to be made that normalizing debauchery invites scope creep. | |
| ▲ | RIMR 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm just going to go ahead and say that "free love" is a terribly inappropriate way to refer to sex trafficking, regardless of the age of the victims, unless you're being facetious (e.g., The Onion's "Penis Goofin'" allegations against Epstein). | | |
| ▲ | cgriswald 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m going to suggest re-reading the top level comment and the GP’s response. I don’t see anyone suggesting non-facetiously that free love and sex trafficking are synonymous nor that sex trafficking of adults is acceptable. I think the top level poster is being facetious; such a view is how these creeps might think. I think the respondent is, intentionally or mistakenly, ignoring that context and using the term at face value. |
| |
| ▲ | gertarrsr 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
|
|
| ▲ | aeternum 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's far easier to control and prosecute communication when an identity is attached. |
|
| ▲ | thinkingemote 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Peter Mandelson was pushing very hard for digital ID cards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 |
| |
| ▲ | Seattle3503 an hour ago | parent [-] | | A good implementation of digital ID can do things like verify age while respecting privacy. |
|
|
| ▲ | morgengold 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I hope this time it really sinks in that law and rules are only for the little man. Time to think about the system from scratch. |
| |
| ▲ | imiric 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | What makes you think next time will be different? Revolutions happen all the time. They all inevitably end up in the same place. The problem is not them. The problem is us. | | |
| ▲ | titzer 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The media has a big hand in steering the vast majority of people away from critical thinking and proper outrage to useless, powerless disaffection that leads to impulse buying and binge-watching. | |
| ▲ | hackable_sand 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you also not wash your laundry? Gross | | | |
| ▲ | jMyles 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Revolutions happen all the time. They all inevitably end up in the same place. The optimistic take is that this phenomenon is a characteristic of the _emergence_ of an information age (through the agricultural and industrial ages), and will no longer be true of the internet-connected human. | | |
| ▲ | imiric 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I appreciate the sentiment, but what makes you think that the internet or technology at all can help with this? Judging by the state of the modern internet and WWW, technology seems to be making things worse, not better. The idealistic view of the 1990s that connecting the world would make us more compassionate, tolerant, and rational, hasn't panned out. I don't see a reason to still cling on to that idea. |
| |
| ▲ | jaco6 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
|
|
|
| ▲ | ikrenji 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| the "protect da kids" narrative is just a veil to make us give up more privacy and freedom for "security" |
|
| ▲ | jesterson an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If you look at almost all "protect the kids" initiatives, they are targeting mostly to deter free speech or cover other shenanigans. Same people who "want to protect kids" have no problem exploiting kids. General public should be more intelligent and look a bit deeper than a cool title, but I really can't realistically expect that. |
|
| ▲ | squidsoup 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You're really pulling your punches there. |
|
| ▲ | kneel25 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think it's wild you would make that connection for this topic |
|
| ▲ | volf_ 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| do as we say, not as we do |
|
| ▲ | 0sdi 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| it has never been about children. |
|
| ▲ | TacticalCoder 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > It is a great irony that the heavy handed push for "protect da kids" is all happening while we learn, day by day, that the richest and most powerful members of our society have no problem hanging out with a convicted child sex trafficker. They are hypocrites. In the UK there are hundreds of thousands of girls who have been raped between the 1990s and now (17 000 cases of sexual exploitation in the UK in the year 2024 alone). At least one UK politician refer to the girls who've been raped as "white trash" and recently people are shocked because many are implying that these girls, who are typically mass-raped, have been considered to be consenting. It's known for a fact they tried to bury the story once it's been revealed. Turns out the same method is used by these grooming gangs in countless cities nearly all across the UK. It's not just that the richest and most powerful do frequent child sex trafficker: it's that many politicians and judges all over the west are totally fine closing their eyes on the mass raping of girls (some boys are victims of rapes too but it's mostly girls). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grooming_gangs_scandal > Rules for thee, free love for me. Rules for thee, free love for me and for my voters base. |
|
| ▲ | tux3 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I am not a native English speaker, I may be missing a cultural nuance, but I wouldn't call any of what they did love. That word enters nowhere in a sickening child abuse island. |
| |
|
| ▲ | watwut 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To be fair, the people in that group were literally writing articles about how meetoo went too far and sponsored lawsuits against feminists exposing the stuff. So like, their ideal vision of the world was "every man can treat women and kids this way, they belong to kitchen anyway". |
|
| ▲ | schnable 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's useful to point out hypocrisy, but are you suggesting we shouldn't try to protect kids because of Jeffrey Epstein? |
|
| ▲ | ingohelpinger 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| and they keep protecting the pedos from prosecution. lol. |
| |
|
| ▲ | kmeisthax 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The extremely cynical take: All of this is by design for well-connected billionaire pedophile rings to kill competition from millionaire pedophile rings. The less cynical take: Billionaire pedophilia is just a really dramatic consequence of us building a society that cannot make billionaires accountable for their crimes. There's not much connection between that and the government overreach being done in an attempt to put regular pedophiles to justice. Discord is overcompensating for their extremely lax child safety record. It's not terribly difficult to find servers full of child groomers on Discord that are rarely banned. Same thing with Roblox. The business model of social media presumes that the average user is going to require almost no attention from the moderation team. That's why, for example, removing CDA 230 safe harbor provisions in US law would be so catastrophic to online discourse. The only way any company can justify the risk of publishing Someone Else's Speech is if that risk is literally zero. The same calculus means that when we start requiring social media companies care about children on their platform, they immediately reach for the solutions that are trivially automated: ID and face scans. These companies are shoestring operations for their size, so everything has to "scale" on day one. |
|
| ▲ | nickpsecurity 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
| |
| ▲ | spauldo 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't recall the Bible saying much about who to vote for, given that democracy wasn't much of a thing in the ancient middle east. | | | |
| ▲ | subscribed 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So you're saying people talking about some particular god are highly moral and not involved in crimes, including crimes on children? | | |
| ▲ | nickpsecurity 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | God's Word says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That we have choices but all choose evil. We keep choosing evil at times out entire lives. So, all people are to face justice for their evil. But, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life. Christ took God's jistice upon Himself, serving our sentence for us, to give us a second chance. If people repent and follow Him (God), then He forgives our sins as a gift. Then, begins a process of transforming us from inside out to glorify His name on Earth. Which includes good works He does through us. People can still choose to sin. We're evil, after all. Yet, we have an Advocate, Jesus Christ the Righteous, who intercedes for us. He cleans us from all unrighteousness as we confess with true remorse. If we ask, He turns a heart of stone into a heart of flesh. It's a gift He offers out of grace we don't deserve. But, He does discipline unrepentant sin and it does cost us in the long run. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | oguz-ismail2 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's a question of scale. Neither crime is less serious but far more children are groomed and abused over Discord than flown in via some super rich sicko's private jet for a 'costume party'. |
| |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Making everyone "teens by default" fixes none of that, though. Roblox spaces aren't exactly 18+ |
|
|
| ▲ | zozbot234 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is no worse than Discord just banning NSFW content wholesale throughout the platform (which they would be entirely within their rights to do). It's a big fat nothingburger. |
| |
| ▲ | RobotToaster 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm sure the owners of Tumblr thought the same. | | |
| ▲ | Macha 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | The owners of Tumblr thought being banned from the app store was certain death, but losing the nsfw content was only possible death. | | |
| ▲ | terribleperson 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | In reality, losing the nsfw content was certain death, but losing the app would have just been a downsizing. Maybe not even a major one - platforms are sticky as hell. I think most people would happily use the browser. Now if you go out of your way to make your browser experience dogshit, like Patreon... Then yeah, losing the app store is very bad. |
|
| |
| ▲ | Morromist 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It would be in their rights to do it. Its users who value their privacy will be in their rights to leave and we will. | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They have a right to ask for my passport and SSN. And I have a right to say "hell no" and delete my account in response. | |
| ▲ | danaris 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's not a nothingburger; it's a massive collection of personally identifying information. | | | |
| ▲ | FireBeyond 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Except it is scarily easy to find servers which openly have minors selling NSFW content. Or BDSM servers targeted at "14-28 year olds". |
|
|
| ▲ | BurningFrog 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Just like how you learn that all black men are criminals when you see a few of them committing crimes! |
|
| ▲ | johndhi 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| he was convicted of soliciting prostitution (not of minors), right? why do we assume that the people he was hanging out with knew the details of what he did wrong? |
| |
| ▲ | anon84873628 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This article was on the front page recently: https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=9534 So at least some lay people easily realized he wasn't worth getting involved with. | | | |
| ▲ | hardlianotion 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | He was arrested for sex trafficking minors and convicted procuring a child for prostitution. | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > not of minors, right? https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1180481... "The victims described herein were as young as 14 years old at the time they were abused by Jeffrey Epstein... Epstein intentionally sought out minors and knew that many of his victims were in fact under the age of 18, including because, in some instances, minor victims expressly told him their age." > why do we assume that the people he was hanging out with knew the details of what he did wrong? Some of them were emailing long, long after his conviction. | |
| ▲ | ibejoeb 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | He pled to Procuring Person under 18 for Prostitution. | |
| ▲ | Finnucane 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | He ran a sex-trafficking ring that involved hundreds of girls and women. Possibly over a thousand. He wasn't keeping it all to himself. |
|