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TOMDM 11 hours ago

The rights abuses occurring in Minnesota and at the hands of ICE are better characterised as a degradation of democracy, not a failure of it.

EDIT: To be clear, my belief is that a plurality of the voting population voted for this, that much is obvious.

My belief is also that despite the fact that the current administration was elected, there are democratic norms and rules for what outcomes require that a bill must be passed to enact, that states can decide how they can govern themselves within well defined bounds.

All of this is being ignored despite the structures defined in the American democatric system, not because of it.

sheepscreek 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Yep. Democracy is working according to a non-minority in the country. Agree to disagree?

watwut 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It is not democracy anymore. It is authoritarian regime dismantling the democracy.

direwolf20 3 hours ago | parent [-]

67% of people didn't vote against it.

mystraline 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sure. I'll bite.

The majority in this country is "didn't vote". Multitudes of reasons for this.

They forgot.

They dont care.

They missed the registration deadline.

They're homeless, and no address.

They can't get proper papers, even though they are US born.

They're in prison/jail.

The candidates suck, so you dont vote.

Can't afford to take time off work.

They've been gerrymandered, so their votes are significantly degraded.

To think that the minority segment that, due to election game rules and FPTP, that a minority of the minority somehow reflects a majority? I wholly reject that.

pton_xd 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's always been this way. According to Google 64% of the voting age population voted in 2024. In 1972 it was 56%, in 1976 it was 55%, in 1980 it was 55%, in 1984 it was 56%... you get the idea [0].

[0] https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/vitalst...

thayne 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That doesn't change the fact that the majority of Americans didn't vote for Trump. In fact, the majority of people who did vote didn't vote for Trump. Yes, he won the "popular vote", but that just means he got more votes than anyone else, not more than half of the votes.

reverius42 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I think he actually did get more than half the votes this time.

"Staying home" is not actually a vote, as much as people want it to be in their heart of hearts.

edit: sorry, I was wrong, he did not quite clear 50% -- looked it up and he got 49.8%.

lostlogin 5 hours ago | parent [-]

The measure that interests me os the percentage of eligible voters that picked Trump - 31.6%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States...

mystraline 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"This is how its always been" is one of the banes of my existence. It explains why we're here, but not how to do better.

There are ways to do better. A national holiday for elections has been mentioned countless times.

We could do like Australia and mandate required voting.

Prisoners should be able to vote. But this country is too hell-bent on punishment.

Registration can be made on the same day of voting, rather than some states require 30 days, and others per state.

But in reality, none of these are done. Changes are glacial, if they do happen.

But these would all increase a democratic choice. Right now, its a horrendously gamified minority of a minority who decides, based on electoral college results.

rayiner 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Of course prisoners should not be allowed to vote, for the same reason as children. Expanding the electorate for the sake of expanding it doesn’t make the result better.

Instead, the electorate should be narrowed to property owning people who have an IQ above 85 (within one SD of median) and two grandparents born in the U.S. (so culturally assimilated).

WalterBright 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> mandate required voting

I don't see how forcing a person to vote will result in carefully considering what to vote for.

A right to vote includes the right to not vote.

defrost 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sure, and countries with "compulsory voting" embrace the right to Donkey vote, pencil in whatever candidate you choose, criticise the government in a short haiku, and otherwise exercise freedom.

It's more a compulsory show you're still a citizen day. The making a valid vote part is down to personal choice.

They also appear to have generally better general political awareness and engagement in policy.

autoexec 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> A right to vote includes the right to not vote.

Then add an abstain option to the ballot while still requiring people to show up and select the box. While I do think voting should be mandatory, I'd say that we should make it substantially easier. More polling places, mail in voting, having a mandated paid day off to vote and having more than one day to vote in person would go a long way to making the requirement workable.

WalterBright 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Forcing people to the polling place doesn't sound like a free society. Nor does it auger for any positive votes - people forced into something don't behave well. You'll get perverse voting.

x______________ 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Living in a civilized society with other people should have its social responsibilities, amongst others.

mrighele 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are a few things that could be done to improve the electoral process in USA.

An easy one would be to have people vote on weekends instead of Tuesday.

The second would be to have more polling station so that people don't have to wait hours to be able to vote (alas this seems to be by design).

Since we are there, but unrelated to the amount of people voting, fix the vote counting process so that you can get the result the following day.

The stuff above is not rocket science and is what most of the other civilized countries do.

If people still don't go out and vote, probably is because both candidates suck, or they don't look so much different one from the other. Fixing this would require changing the electoral system, which is not something I see done anytime soon in the USA

lostlogin 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Also on the list: Tackling the electoral college thing such that every voter contributed equally, regardless of their home state.

I don’t live in the US, but US elections have quite an influence and it’s frustrating to see a system I perceive as very flawed having such an effect here, at the other end of the world in New Zealand.

RHSeeger 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> A national holiday for elections has been mentioned countless times.

Many people already do get the option to ditch out of work to go vote. And it's not logistically possible for _everyone_ to have the day off. So really this is just a matter of sliding the scale a bit so _more_ people can vote; at the cost of more inconvenience.

Personally, I'd rather just make mail-in voting more common.

yazantapuz 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There are ways to do better. A national holiday for elections has been mentioned countless times.

In Argentina, elections are held on Sundays.

shiroiuma 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>"This is how its always been" is one of the banes of my existence. It explains why we're here, but not how to do better.

This is true, but it's also very useful in assigning blame (or avoiding assigning it improperly).

So for all the people who complain about all the people who didn't vote, and try to blame them for Trump's election, we can just point to the historical record for voting in US presidential elections. The truth is: the turnout was not unusually low. In fact, it was somewhat high, historically speaking (though not as high as in 2020, which was a record; you'd have to back to the 50s or early 60s to see a higher turnout, and that was in a time when Black people weren't allowed to vote in many places).

So instead of blaming non-voters, blame can be assigned properly to those who DID vote. Because the factors that have prevented many people from voting in past elections were still a factor in the most recent election.

>We could do like Australia and mandate required voting.

Right, and how do you enforce this when people aren't allowed to take time off from work to vote? Also, looking at the state of Australian politics, I don't see mandatory voting as a worthwhile fix.

>A national holiday for elections has been mentioned countless times.

Lots of people have to work on national holidays. How do they vote? Society doesn't stop needing police, firefighters, or hospital workers on national holidays. And most stores (like grocery stores) are still open, so their workers are required to go to work too.

More importantly, why do you think the GOP would ever agree to any measures to increase voter participation?

thayne 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I didn't see anyone blaming non-voters. The argument is that a majority of Americans didn't vote for this, because most Americans didn't vote at all. (Also, of those that did vote, less than 50% voted for Trump).

reverius42 6 hours ago | parent [-]

"less than 50%" being 49.8%. Kind of winning on a technicality there.

decremental 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

koolba 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> There are ways to do better. A national holiday for elections has been mentioned countless times.

Sure. But let’s get rid of all early voting and mail in balloting. No excuses right? Throw in voter id too.

> We could do like Australia and mandate required voting.

I never quite understand why mandatory participation is a meaningful goal. If people are neither informed nor interested, why do you want them to have a say at all? At best they’ll be picking a last name that sounds pronounceable. Or going with whichever first name sounds more (or less!) male.

> Prisoners should be able to vote. But this country is too hell-bent on punishment.

We already strip them of their freedom of movement. Why do you want everyone up to and including rapists, pedophiles, and murders voting? Is there a particular voting bloc that you think would add value with their point of view?

> Registration can be made on the same day of voting, rather than some states require 30 days, and others per state.

I’m generally for this though there are a bit of logistics when you’re dealing with preprinted paper ballots and some expectations of processing quantity. Prior registration also addresses people showing up at the wrong polls in advance.

> But in reality, none of these are done. Changes are glacial, if they do happen.

Not always a bad thing either. If all it took was the stroke of an executive’s pen, you’d see a lot of things I bet you would not be fond of rather soon.

> But these would all increase a democratic choice. Right now, its a horrendously gamified minority of a minority who decides, based on electoral college results.

The electoral college is a feature. It forces you to win across large and small States.

lostlogin 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The electoral college is a feature. It forces you to win across large and small States.

Surely you want the leader that most Americans voted for?

When votes are held in the senate or congress, it’s a straight numbers game. Why aren’t those votes also weighted?

There wouldn’t be many who’d argue that the American political system is in good health. How would you fix it?

fwip 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> When votes are held in the senate or congress, it’s a straight numbers game. Why aren’t those votes also weighted?

They are weighted - the House is allocated by population, and the Senate by state.

Arainach 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Sure. But let’s get rid of all early voting and mail in balloting. No excuses right? Throw in voter id too.

There's no reason that a holiday to give people time to do it requires or logically leads to either of those, no.

>I never quite understand why mandatory participation is a meaningful goal.

Mandatory participation generally includes write-in and abstain options, but requires people to participate in the process. Making it mandatory defeats the measures taken to stop groups of people from voting (insufficient polling places for long lines, intimidation keeping people away, purging voter rolls, etc.)

>We already strip them of their freedom of movement. Why do you want everyone up to and including rapists, pedophiles, and murders voting? Is there a particular voting bloc that you think would add value with their point of view?

Because it's easy to file bullshit charges against anyone you don't want voting, and because something being illegal doesn't make it morally wrong, so people should be able to vote to change things even when being persecuted for them.

RHSeeger 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> > There are ways to do better. A national holiday for elections has been mentioned countless times.

> Sure. But let’s get rid of all early voting and mail in balloting. No excuses right? Throw in voter id too.

Why does having a day with "more people off work to go vote" mean we make voting harder in other ways? I don't understand what you're trying to say/imply here.

> > Prisoners should be able to vote. But this country is too hell-bent on punishment.

> We already strip them of their freedom of movement. Why do you want everyone up to and including rapists, pedophiles, and murders voting? Is there a particular voting bloc that you think would add value with their point of view?

Because, like it or not, they are citizens, and citizens get to vote. Do I think most pedophiles have much to contribute to the process? No, probably not. But there's a LOT of prisoners that are guilty of much lesser crimes; ones that don't imply their vote shouldn't matter.

> The electoral college is a feature. It forces you to win across large and small States.

Challenge. But this is very much an opinion thing.

rayiner 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Multiple polls have found that if everyone had voted, Trump would have won by even more. https://data.blueroseresearch.org/hubfs/2024%20Blue%20Rose%2...

https://www.npr.org/2025/06/26/nx-s1-5447450/trump-2024-elec...

The average person who doesn’t vote is a low-trust individual who is skeptical about government and institutions. Those people are Trumpier than average.

monero-xmr 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean you can make up all the excuses you want for losing an election but you still lost. Doesn’t make the result illegitimate

olyjohn 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"you" lost? Did this guy you're replying to run for office? This whole my team vs your team bullshit is really one of the big problems in our country. No independent thought. Just stick with what news says. Always vote my team. Dumb. Here's a news bulletin for you, everybody lost.

monero-xmr 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Parent posted a list of excuses for why people didn’t vote. Doesn’t change an election

autoexec 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think people not being able to vote because their right to vote has been taken from them, or their vote was made pointless through gerrymandering, or because of other acts of voter suppression does change elections. The ability for it to change the outcome of a race is why voter suppression happens.

People who don't bother to vote for any reason changes elections. It also makes it very hard to make claims about what the majority of Americans want, since so many didn't make their opinions known

FeepingCreature 6 hours ago | parent [-]

You can't gerrymander a presidential election. How would that work? It's not district-based.

A majority of Americans either wanted Trump or didn't care enough to vote against him.

wavefunction 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In my experience in Texas, the right-wingers have this system set up where votes that were legally cast can be denied validity by some sort of "citizens election integrity board." I had no issue voting in Travis County but when I moved to a more conservative suburban county address I ran into this. There's a multitude of ways for anti-democratic forces in the US to deny citizens their rights. And it really hardened my opinion of these sorts of people that would do that to me and others. If they say my rights aren't valid how valid are their own, certainly nothing I should respect given their treatment of myself and others. That's why I have no tolerance for the right-wing I've seen their real face.

10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
monero-xmr 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When democracy votes for something you don’t like just call it populism

decremental 10 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

int_19h 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Selling oneself into slavery is not an exercise in bodily autonomy.

Electing fascists is not an exercise in democracy.

somenameforme 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I do not think the current government in the US is fascist, but electing fascists would indeed be an exercise in democracy. The entire point of democracy is that it's the will of the people, whether right or wrong.

This is precisely why democracy was never seen as a tenable system for millennia. Thinkers of the past always assumed that the people would be incapable of picking the most skilled leaders, and would instead end up picking the most charismatic leaders. This is precisely what Plato's endlessly cited allegory of the Ship of State [1] is about.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_State

delaminator 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Good job no-one has elected any fascists then