| ▲ | DoctorOetker 6 hours ago |
| what makes you believe this? radiators can be made as long as desirable within the shade of the solar panels, hence the designer can pracitically set arbitrarily low temperatures above the background temperature of the universe. |
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| ▲ | c1ccccc1 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Radiators can shadow each other, so that puts some kind of limit on the size of the individual satellite (which limits the size of training run it can be used for, but I guess the goal for these is mostly inference anyway). More seriously, heat conduction is an issue: If the radiator is too long, heat won't get from its base to its tip fast enough. Using fluid is possible, but adds another system that can fail. If nothing else, increasing the size of the radiator means more mass that needs to be launched into space. |
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| ▲ | DoctorOetker 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | please check my didactic example here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46862869 "Radiators can shadow each other," this is precisely why I chose a convex shape, that was not an accident, I chose a pyramid just because its obvious that the 4 triangular sides can be kept in the shade with respect to the sun, and their area can be made arbitrarily large by increasing the height of the pyramid for a constant base. A convex shape guarantees that no part of the surface can appear in the hemispherical view of any other part of the surface. The only size limit is technological / economical. In practice h = 3xL where L was the square base side length, suffices to keep the temperature below 300K. If heat conduction can't be managed with thermosiphons / heat pipes / cooling loops on the satellite, why would it be possible on earth? Think of a small scale satellite with pyramidal sats roughly h = 3L, but L could be much smaller, do you actually see any issue with heat conduction? scaling up just means placing more of the small pyramidal sats. |
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| ▲ | alangibson 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Shading does work; JWST does this. However I don't see how you can make it work for satellite data centers. You would constantly be engaging attitude control as you realigned the panels to keep the radiators in shade. You'd run out of thruster fuel so fast you'd get like a month out of each satellite |
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| ▲ | DontBreakAlex 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Radiators can only be made as long as desirable because there's gravity for the fluid inside to go back down once it condenses. Even seen those copper heat pipes in your PC radiator? |
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| ▲ | eldenring 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| these same comments pop up every time someone brings up satellite data-centers where people just assume the only way of dissipating heat is through convection with the environment. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, we just "assume" (i.e. know) that radiation in a vacuum is a really bad way of dissipating heat, to the point that we use vacuum as a very effective insulator on earth. Yes, you can overcome this with enough radiator area. Which costs money, and adds weight and space, which costs more money. Nobody is saying the idea of data centers in space is impossible. It's obviously very possible. But it doesn't make even the slightest bit of economic sense. Everything gets way, way harder and there's no upside. | | |
| ▲ | DoctorOetker 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > No, we just "assume" (i.e. know) that radiation in a vacuum is a really bad way of dissipating heat, to the point that we use vacuum as a very effective insulator on earth. In space or vacuum radiation is the best way to dissipate heat, since it's the only way. I believe the reason the common person assumes thermal radiation is a very poor way of shedding heat is because of 2 factoids commonly known: 1. People think they know how a vacuum flask / dewar works. 2. People understand that in earthly conditions (inside a building, or under our atmosphere) thermal radiation is insignificant compared to conduction and convection. But they don't take into account that: 1) Vacuum flasks / dewars use a vacuum for thermal insulation. Yes and they mirror the glass (emissivity nearer to ~0) precisely because thermal radiation would occur otherwise. They try their best to eliminate thermal radiation, a system optimized to eliminate thermal radiation is not a great example of how to effectively use thermal radiation to conduct heat. The thermal radiation panels would be optimized for emissivity 1, the opposite of whats inside the vacuum flask. 2) In a building or under an atmosphere a room temperature object is in fact shedding heat very quickly by thermal radiation, but so are the walls and other room temperature objects around you, they are reheating you with their thermal radiation. The net effect is small, in these earthly conditions, but in a satellite the temperature of the environment faced by the radiating surfaces is 4K, not a temperature similar to the object you are trying to keep cool. People take the small net effect of thermal radiation in rooms etc, and the slow heat conduction through a vacuum flasks walls as representative for thermal radiation panels facing cold empty space, which is the mistake. | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Well no, it’s because conduction/convection into a fluid is so much more effective. Just look at a car. Maybe half a square meter of “radiator” is enough to dissipate hundreds of kW of heat, because it can dump it into a convenient mass of fluid. That’s way more heat than the ISS’s radiators handle, and three orders of magnitude less area. Or do a simple experiment at home. Light a match. Hold your finger near it. Then put your finger in the flame. How much faster did the heat transfer when you made contact? Enough to go from feeling mildly warm to causing injury. | | |
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| ▲ | verzali 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Additional radiator area means bigger spacecraft, implies more challenge with attitude control. Lower down you get more drag so you use propellant to keep yourself up, higher up you have more debris and the large area means you need to frequently manoeuvre to avoid collisions. Making things bigger in space is not trivial! You can't just deploy arbitrarily large panels and expect everything to be fine. | | | |
| ▲ | eldenring 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The radiators would be lighter compared to the solar panels, and slightly smaller surface area so you can line them back to back I don't think dissipating heat would be an issue at all. The cost of launch I think is the main bottleneck, but cooling would just be a small overhead on the cost of energy. Not a fundamental problem. | | |
| ▲ | lm28469 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you solved this problem apply at nasa because they still haven't figured it out. Either that or your talking out of your ass. FYI a single modern rack consumes twice the energy of the entire ISS, in a much much much much smaller package and you'll need thousands of them. You'd need 500-1000 sqm of radiator per rack and that alone would weight several tonnes... You'll also have to actively cool down your gigantic solar panel array | | |
| ▲ | DoctorOetker 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | eldenring is slightly wrong: for reasonable temperatures the area of the radiating panels would have to be a bit more than 3 times the area of the solar panel, otherwise theres nothing wrong. No need to apply at NASA, to the contrary, if you don't believe in Stefan Boltzmann law, feel free to apply for a Nobel prize with your favorite crank theory in physics. | | |
| ▲ | eldenring 43 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Whats your definition for reasonable temp? my envelope math tells me at 82 celsius (right before h100s start to throttle) you'd need about 1.5x the surface area for radiators. Not exactly back to back, but even 3x surface area is reasonable. Also this assumes a flat surface on both sides. Another commenter in this thread brought up a pyramid shape which could work. Finally, these gpus are design for earth data centers where power is limited and heat sinks are abundant. In the case of space data centers you can imagine we get better radiators or silicon that runs hotter. Crypto miners often run asics very hot. I just don't understand why every time this topic is brought up, everyone on HN wants to die on the hill that cooling is not possible. It is?? the primary issue if you do the math is clearly the cost of launch. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The pertinent thing is that it’s not an advantage. It may be doable but it’s not easier than cooling a computer in a building. | | |
| ▲ | DoctorOetker 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The distinction is that you don't need to compete for land area, that you don't cause local environmental damage by heating say a river or a lake, that you don't compete with meatbags for energy and heat dissipation rights. Without eventually moving compute to space we are going to have compute infringe on the space, energy, heat dissipation rights of meatbags. Why welcome that?!? | | |
| ▲ | defrost 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | How efficient is thermal radiation through a vacuum again? Sure, it occurs, but what does the Stefan–Boltzmann law tell us about GPU clusters in space? | | |
| ▲ | DoctorOetker 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > How efficient is thermal radiation through a vacuum again? I provided the calculation for the pyramidal shape: if the base of a pyramid were a square solar panel with side length L, then for a target temperature of 300K (a typical back of envelope substitute for "room temperature") the height of the pyramid would have to be about 3 times the side length of the square base. Quite reasonable. > Sure, it occurs, but what does the Stefan–Boltzmann law tell us about GPU clusters in space? The Stefan-Boltzmann law tells us that whatever prevents us from putting GPU clusters in space, it's not the difficulty in shedding heat by thermal radiation that is supposedly stopping us. | | |
| ▲ | defrost 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is it the required size of the wings for radiative cooling then? | | |
| ▲ | DoctorOetker 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Just picture a square based pyramid, like a pyramid from egypt, thats the rough shape. Lets pretend the bottom is square. For thermodynamic analysis, we can just pretend the scale is irrelevant, it could be 4 cm x 4 cm base or 4 km x 4 km base. Now stretch the pyramid so the height of the tip is 3 times the length of the sides of the square base, so 12 cm or 12 km in the random examples above. If the base were a solar panel aimed perpendicular to sun, then the tip is facing away and all side triangles faces of the pyramid are in the shade. I voluntarily give up heat dissipation area on 2 of the 4 triangular sides (just to make calculations easier, if we make them thermally reflective -emissivity 0-, we can't shed heat, but also don't absorb heat coming from lukewarm Earth). The remaining 2 triangular sides will be large enough that the temperature of the triangular panels is kept below 300 K. The panels also serve as the cold heat baths, i.e. the thermal sinks for the compute on board. Not sure what you mean with wings, I intentionally chose a convex shape like a pyramid so that no part of the surface of the pyramid can see another part of the surface, so no self-obstruction for shedding heat etc... If this doesn't answer your question, feel free to ask a new question so I understand what your actual question is. The electrical power available for compute will be approximately 20% (efficiency of solar panels) times the area of the square base L ^ 2 times 1360 W / m ^ 2 . The electrical power thus scales quadratically with the chosen side length, and thus linearly with the area of the square base. |
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| ▲ | MuskIsAntidemo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | ares623 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| what? the heat is coming from inside the house |
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