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Palantir has no place in UK public services(opendemocracy.net)
168 points by jethronethro 3 hours ago | 40 comments
tombert 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The more I read about Palantir, the creepier and weirder it becomes. The CEO brags about wanting to kill all journalists with fentanyl, or brags about how their software will be used to kill people, and how readily they're willing to work for the convicted fraudster that America felt fit to give the nuclear codes.

And despite this company being creepy and weird and bizarre and secretive, they are also trying to make themselves a lifestyle brand by selling merchandise. If I felt like spending $150 for a Palantir-based hoodie, I guess I can normally do that [1], but disturbingly it is apparently "sold out". Apparently a lot of people really want to buy an overpriced sweater, or maybe they're trying to preemptively buy social credit.

Who knows. Everything is terrible.

[1] https://store.palantir.com/

gabaix 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Karp is a philosopher by training that has fallen into religious ideological blindness. He claims that he is on the right side of history. He preaches his views to his employees. No one in his flock seems to wonder what would happen if their tools were to be used against democracy.

Questioning the gospel is hard when the company stock goes so high so quickly.

jacquesm 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

By that kind of reasoning the Mafia is doing just great.

Not everything is about money.

nextos an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Ironically, the Danish Government is a heavy user of Palantir systems, including creepy predictive policing solutions.

I would be keen to know if citizen data is being handled correctly, following GDPR/LED.

Given previous Danish client-state-like cooperation with NSA to spy on other EU countries, I can imagine the answer.

lostlogin an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> including creepy predictive policing solutions.

Minority Report Coming right up.

izacus 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

GDPR has carveouts for governments and law enforcement so they can do whatever for those purposes.

hexbin010 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I love how powerful the GDPR marketing was that it made people forget that there are massive exceptions for prevention of crime and for the government

ggm 15 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd be surprised if they cannot provide services which translate to outcomes successive governments want. So in that sense, "has no place" is about alignment to goals, as much as desires. Palantir is able to do things which the government wants done. If this pits government against citizenry in terms of what people think, thats not unusual.

The big-4 would happily also do this. Deloitte, EY, KPMG and PwC Would take money to provide outlines and project management for an in-house, or an outsource to somebody other than Palantir. It wouldn't neccessarily be either cheaper, or faster, or for that matter any more socially acceptable.

I don't like the source, I could agree with the opinion (broken clock write 2x a day..) but to pretend government doesn't want what Palantir is selling is faux naieve and stupid.

What alternative is there, and why is "don't do it" viable?

This is "defund the police" wolf howling at the moon stuff.

deaux 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Correct. Neither do Microsoft, Amazon, Google and Apple - realistically they're even more dangerous, see the ICC. Ironically the first three being the main hosts of.. you guessed it, Palantir.

Picking and choosing US big tech in this context is pointless, they're all as much of a risk as each other. And don't come with "you have to start somewhere", because you do, but then the place to start is slowly step-by-step getting off of the most critical ones, which are the first four I mentioned.

linkjuice4all 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It seems like there's a big opportunity for someone to hire a bunch of disenfranchised US devs that want to flee the country to build an EU-native cloud platform - but clearly there's enough talent on the continent already, so why hasn't this happened yet?

amarant 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It has! Here's a whole list of them, but others might exist too!

https://european-alternatives.eu/category/cloud-computing-pl...

notpushkin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because it’s not a dev problem, it’s a sales problem.

jacquesm 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It is much more complicated than that.

(1) Europe has a fragmented market; linguistically, product wise (2) Silicon Valley is in the United States (3) The United States has a very large amount of capital to throw at companies (4) even if you managed to succeed in the EU your shares will most likely be bought out from under you if you raised capital (5) all of the above re-inforce each other over time

Once you have that kind of an advantage it is very hard to lose it.

rorylawless 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The sales problem being there isn't anything viable to compete with the established players. Europe has the capability, even without immigration from the US, it just needs a kick to make good enough products.

SilverElfin an hour ago | parent [-]

The EU should also create a new regulation to force everyone on the continent to move away from American companies. That’s one way to give the local startups a market to sell to.

bigfudge an hour ago | parent [-]

I’d be interested in arguments that EU providers could be equivalent to Azure … is it realistic to move a large university across for email and other cloud services? Might be the right time to start campaigning for institutions to divest from US tech stacks…

davidw 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Among other things, with everything going on in the US today, the CEOs of Apple and Amazon were apparently at the WH for a screening of the Melania film.

SilverElfin an hour ago | parent [-]

Amazon funded it. They paid $30 million or so for rights to the documentary for Amazon Prime. I doubt viewers will care about it, but I look at it as a bribe from Amazon to the administration. They give Melania and by extension Trump this money, and they will get better regulatory help and more government contracts.

add-sub-mul-div an hour ago | parent [-]

I didn't even know this existed, let alone that it was made by Amazon. This makes their Chris Pratt garbage look like cinema.

SpicyLemonZest an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's easy to start with Palantir because it simply doesn't provide any legitimate value. They don't do anything, at all, other than enable spying by weaving snippets of private data into a coherent whole. You don't have to explain the decision to well-meaning people who are inconvenienced, nor provide a transition plan for essential services, you can just yank the plug tomorrow and tell everyone who complains to buzz off.

rvz 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Incoming big-tech sympathizers with defense contracts, boosters and hairsplitters in 3, 2, 1.

deaux 2 hours ago | parent [-]

"No way, not a cent of my nest egg funded by papa Bezos comes from AWS FedRAMP High GovCloud massive sweet enterprise contracts with the likes of Palantir to host them at scale!"

The truth is there's thousands if not tens of thousands of people on here for whom it is incredibly convenient to imagine their vests were granted in a completely different universe to the likes of Palantir. Deep down they know their companies realistically play an unfathomably bigger role in surveillance capatalism, crippling addictions, furthering of current US Party strongarming and a whole lot more. Exactly why many find it so cathartic to latch on to these threads and reinforce that cognitive dissonance.

I didn't even mention Meta who bring about as much harm in a day as Palantir wish it could do in a year - make no mistake, I'm not suggesting the latter is for a lack of trying. Although the idea that Zuck is somehow any more ethical than Thiel is of course hilarious.

But after all, you and me too are quite culpable in this moment, providing marketing and engagement for the platform behind Flock(YC S17). The exact source of all that data we're so angry about being loaded into the Palantir platforms.

rvz an hour ago | parent [-]

Correct.

I expect the author of the article must also recognize that Big Tech is in the same basket and are just as complicit for the sake of consistency. The problem is, we just don't hear about it often.

When I brought this up last time in [0] all I saw was constant hairsplitting, attempts to seperate Big Tech from Palantir and lots of 'whataboutism' accusations, which doesn't work because I agree.

So when I saw this:

> Palantir’s tentacles are already extending into our communities. In my constituency of Coventry, the Labour-run council awarded the company a £500,000 contract to develop an AI tool for children’s services.

Google [1], Microsoft [2], Amazon [3] are no different and these are just a few of them and they are just as bad as Palantir and all of them are in the SNP 500 directly in the portfolios of pension funds.

So it is indeed a waste of time trying to picking and choose US tech companies on this.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46407683

[1] https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366634759/Google-wins-mu...

[2] https://www.digitalhealth.net/2023/06/nhs-signs-new-microsof...

[3] https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366566172/AWS-secures-89...

mc32 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The UK is building/has built a surveillance state using the boiling frog method. So even if you change vendors, surveillance will continue. You have accepted it as par for the course. Unless you reject it and subsequent politicians don't double-cross you, surveillance will continue. No question.

secretsatan 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It’s something that always horrified me, but it was just done without the governments help, they just let private individuals do it and gave away public spaces to private interests

ronsor 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

UK society has always been surprisingly tolerant of mass surveillance. Whether Palantir is involved or not, I think it may be too late to get off the train.

throwaway150 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I know UK is ok with surveillance in public places because there is no expectation of privacy in public spaces. But are they really tolerant of surveillance in non-public places?

rorylawless an hour ago | parent | next [-]

No, not at all. The surveillance state nonsense is overplayed online.

hexbin010 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Brit here. Yes because the average Brit is insufficiently educated to understand the harm. They are very easily swayed by "think of the children" or saving just one life. They consume huge amounts of propaganda with little to zero critical thinking

inference-god 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's hard not to see a sort of oligarchy vs the people battle shaping up, that's for sure.

hexbin010 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Well, protesting is illegal now

dfxm12 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, it's important to elect councillors and MP's that represent the people and not monied interests.

Nextgrid an hour ago | parent [-]

Problem is that you must already represent monied interests before you get anywhere near an MP/councillor seat.

nailer an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Zahrah Sultana is a racist conspiracy theorist and not someone to take seriously on any matter.

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/mps-mcdonnell-and-sultana-addre...

Sultana is also on record stating the grooming gangs were a racist smear (which is odd as there were multiple races involved)

potamic an hour ago | parent | next [-]

As someone who is neither a Jew nor a Palestinian, I'm going to take this with a grain of salt, because there is so much mud being slung across from both sides.

boomlinde 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

There's no need to even take it with a grain of salt. The factual circumstances described in the article are extremely mundane, but the article tries to paint her participation as a problem by supposing that anyone participating in a public event should only do so if they can answer for every disparate opinion of everyone else there.

nailer 24 minutes ago | parent [-]

Part of the hacker news guidelines is to assume that everyone read the article, so obviously you read the sentence that started with:

> One can never control what others say or do at any public gathering but if actions take place that I disagree with, once this has been pointed out, it is right and important to explain one’s own position

Daishiman an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

That entire website looks like Israeli sponsored propaganda.

nailer an hour ago | parent [-]

Well Jews are from Israel so yes. What’s your point? Are you saying Zultana wasn’t at that event?

Daishiman 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

Israelis may be from Israel. Jews live all over the world. Do we need to explain the difference between Judaism and Zionism?