| ▲ | maqp 9 hours ago |
| Could someone please explain in what situation do you use a BlueTooth messaging app? Like, even BT5 range won't exceed 400 meters. What good is this? You're not going to send images to journalists from protests with it (you'd do wisely to keep it in airplane mode until you get home and then you'd upload them to their securedrop or whatever), and you don't need off-band security to let the kids know it's dinner time. |
|
| ▲ | lxgr 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Bluetooth 5 introduced "coded PHY", which allows ranges of over 1 km in ideal conditions. As I understand it, adding support for this wouldn't even require new hardware for most recent phones. The real obstacles here are political, not technical, as evidenced by the complete absence of any built-in solution that could be so useful in both everyday life (messaging a family member on the same plane when sitting separately, national park trips etc.) and emergencies. We literally got smartphone-to-satellite comms now, but we're lacking the most barebones peer-to-peer functionality. |
| |
| ▲ | IshKebab 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Huh I didn't know about that. Seems like it uses 8 symbols per bit to increase the range (but I would very seriously doubt you ever get close to 1km except in super ideal "both in a field in the middle of nowhere" scenarios that never actually happen. Apparently it's an optional part of Bluetooth 5, so not necessarily supported. However I just checked my phone (Pixel 8) and it is supported. You can check in the nRF Connect app. | | |
| ▲ | ostacke 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It falls quite close to the "super ideal scenarios" you described, but Nordic did a real world test and got a range of 1300 m using coded phy. https://devzone.nordicsemi.com/nordic/nordic-blog/b/blog/pos... | | |
| ▲ | IshKebab 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Interesting, so it roughly doubles the range. So we might be looking at like 50-100 m in the real world I guess. | | |
| ▲ | lxgr 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Regular Bluetooth already has 100 m of range, at least for class 1 devices like most Apple devices. (Many older/non-Apple devices are class 2, which only does roughly 10 m. Very noticeable difference in an office environment using headphones.) |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | zenmac 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| One of these bluetooth messaging app was made by a developer who was on a cruise ship with family, and the Internet over satellite costs an arm and leg. So he wrote an app to communicate with his families over bluetooth. Also why would one want to have the data go over some servers thousands miles away when the device is right next to you? Seems like bluetooth is the perfect way to communicate for devices that are close to each other. |
| |
| ▲ | maqp 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah I can imagine a jam-packed cruise ship might be useful provided the signal propagates from deck to another (unlikely), but it's quite a niché use case. >Also why would one want to have the data go over some servers thousands miles away when the device is right next to you? Why would that matter? Use Signal to protect the content, or use Cwtch to protect content and metadata. If you need to exchange secret communications that mustn't go through some server, why not discuss f2f with no phones around? You'd also eliminate attack vectors where your (chances are, Chinese Android) device spies on you, as well as anyone who has compromised it to read messages from screen. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Why would that matter? Reliability? Why should we want to centralize things unnecessarily? It's nice as a fallback but then so too is P2P. | | |
| ▲ | 6510 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | If your message goes though my infrastructure I can shut it down when I feel like it but even if I really don't want to do that I still might be forced by other parties commercial, private and state owned. You shouldn't need any kind of permission to send a picture to your mum sitting next to you on the sofa. |
|
| |
| ▲ | lormayna an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | On a similar situation, someone try Meshtastic and it works great https://old.reddit.com/r/meshtastic/comments/1qd2z97/mestast... I doubt that BLE can propagate well over a cruise ship. | |
| ▲ | cyxxon 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I remember a different app thats was used on e.g. festivals where the local broadcast cells where overwhelmed when a quite rural area suddenly had to server 50000 to 100000 additional people and 3g and 4G basically stopped working. I think it was called Firechat or something. | |
| ▲ | mlrtime 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | On a cruise ship, isn't the cheap walkie talkies still a thing? Or did those die with cell phones? For me the cell phone without internet is almost useless, not much I can do on it, might as well sue a purpose built device. They're also very cheap. Even better if Nextel still worked on phones (but without service). | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > For me the cell phone without internet is almost useless Projects like this one are a step towards fixing that. Personally I choose to keep both street and topographical maps of the entire continent locally on my phone. There are plenty of uses for a computer without a WAN connection. | | |
| ▲ | cbdevidal 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I once wrote an article detailing as many prepper uses for an offline phone as I could think of. Dozens of offline apps useful for a survival situation. My favorite might be ATAK, which is from the US military and allows a team to communicate encrypted over Wi-Fi or radios, completely offline. Share GPS coords, camera feeds, messages, map markers, all kinds of goodness. And if nothing else, you can always rupture the battery and start a fire :-) | | |
| |
| ▲ | Elfener 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The fact the even simple encryption with walkie-talkies is basically illegal might be problem (though I have no idea how/if that applies to at-sea ships). | |
| ▲ | 6510 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The boat could do a captive portal and provide it's own LAN? | | |
| |
| ▲ | tomtomtom777 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Still, wouldn't a wifi meshnet be a better choice for these scenario's? | | |
| ▲ | bronco21016 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Can that be setup on a phone? I imagine in a situation like Iran, carrying a backpack full of WiFi gear to stay connected to the meshnet is a red flag. Establishing a bunch of base stations is likely to raise red flags too. It's pretty trivial for a nation-state that is jamming GPS to go around and jam WiFi or analyze WiFi spectrum for a meshnet operating in and around a protest area. |
| |
| ▲ | nly 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's a cruiseship. Your family are at the nearest bar. Just get off your ass and go and give them the message. | | |
| ▲ | cheema33 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Just get off your ass and go and give them the message... If I need to have all 4 members of the family meet me at the pool, first I need to go find each one of them. They could all be at different place. And then tell them individually to meet me at the pool? Is that the better solution you are proposing? | |
| ▲ | marliechiller 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This seems a bit reductive. You could use this argument for any small town | | | |
| ▲ | exe34 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've checked, they're not there. Now what? | | |
| ▲ | maqp 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Tell them to install bitchat. How to deliver the message to them is left as an exercise to the reader. | | |
| ▲ | exe34 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I just realised the name works very well if you choose the appropriate word splitting position. |
|
| |
| ▲ | 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
|
| ▲ | yaris 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Any situation when mobile internet cannot be used. That is not only protests, but also legal gatherings, i.e. street concerts, or places where mobile coverage is poor in general. |
| |
| ▲ | pipo234 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > That is not only protests, but also legal gatherings[...] Oops! You (unintentionally?) make it sound like protests are illegal. | | |
| ▲ | yaris 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It depends on the country you're in, obviously. I've been to countries where protests are illegal (even 1-man protests with a blank sheet of paper). | |
| ▲ | Ajedi32 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In many of the countries where this would be the most useful, protests are illegal. | |
| ▲ | immibis 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They are. | | |
| ▲ | repelsteeltje 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | That depends on where your live (and when), but: Protest is the cornerstone of democracy and in general you shouldn't need permission to organize a demonstration. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/can-democracy-exist-witho... | | |
| ▲ | Y_Y 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I prefer voting. I find protests annoying. They're a good way for people to let off steam, hang out with friends, get photos for the international press etc. but they're not the right mechanism for finding out what the people want. They're definitely effective when most of the country wants the government out, but by that point a vote would certainly do just as well, and with fewer flying bricks. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Protests can serve as an implied threat if the government is gaming the election process. They're certainly preferable to a riot or a coup attempt in that scenario. They also serve to draw attention to issues that aren't showing up on the ballot for whatever reason. The system doesn't always work in an ideal way. To that end protests are supposed to be annoying to those who don't care. | | |
| ▲ | immibis 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Which is why they're illegal. Governments don't like being threatened. | | |
| |
| ▲ | master-lincoln 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Protests are designed to be annoying.n They are supposed to draw attention to issues that lack the needed attention according to protestors. Voting does not allow to express that a certain issue is politically important to you. | |
| ▲ | dncornholio 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Everyone prefers voting.. But to be able to vote, a vote must be happening. Protests are sometimes the only way to make a vote happen in the first place. They are also a good communication tool for the world to see what the people are struggling with. |
| |
| ▲ | immibis 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Name three currently existing democracies. USA is out (protests illegal), Europe is out (protests require registration which is denied for anything that has a risk of effecting change), the Middle East and Asia are out for obvious reasons. Maybe there's a democracy somewhere in Africa? | | |
| ▲ | 6510 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Things like this would make a good hamburger index of freedom. |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | oreilles 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Or planes. | |
| ▲ | em-bee 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | but i use mobile internet because of the distance. how does bluetooth help with that? | | |
| ▲ | Almondsetat 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | What is your implication? This app is not for talking across the globe with people. | | |
| ▲ | em-bee 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | but the internet is for talking to people across the globe. and the app presents itself as an alternative for internet based apps. the reality is however that in any place where i can't use the internet, this app does not really solve that problem. it is only useful in situations where in most cases the alternative is talking face to face. it's not any situation where the internet can't be used, but just some of them. there certainly are good use cases for local communication, cases where face to face is just out of reach and many of these use cases are currently served with internet based apps too. but it's not an alternative to internet based apps per se. | | |
| ▲ | yaris 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The Internet is _not_ for talking to people across the globe. The Internet allows that, but not only that - one can have a Whatsapp chat with someone in the same bus, this is both legal and technically possible.
The bitchat app serves the niche where talking face to face is not an option and talking across the globe is not needed. And the app explicitly states "infrastructure independence" as one of its design goals: "the network remains functional during internet outages", which cannot be served by internet-based apps by design. | | |
| ▲ | em-bee 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The Internet is _not_ for talking to people across the globe. The Internet allows that, but not only that - one can have a Whatsapp chat with someone in the same bus, this is both legal and technically possible. technically possible but rather redundant and in most cases pointless. (yes, there are exceptions) so i rather strongly disagree. 99% of my use of the internet is to talk to people across the globe. it's its primary use case. the example you mention is a fringe application, useful to a tiny minority. "the network remains functional during internet outages" that strongly implies that i can use this app to replace other apps that use the internet. but i can't, because it does not allow long distance communication the way internet based apps do. so for 99% of my needs this app is not helping me. it does not make me independent of the internet. i have been in places where the internet was cut off due to political turmoil. and i have friends who have that happen to them. in all cases the main challenge was the lack of long distance communication. local communication was barely affected. sms and phone still worked, and in fact the app that would have helped is one that can route data connections via sms and phone calls. like old acoustic modems. infrastructure independence at a local level is nice, but much less serious or critical than independence for long distance communication. and long distance already starts at a few km. |
| |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I believe bitchat can also use the wider internet to exchange messages. So it is an app that can use either the internet or various other more local options. That seems like a desirable improvement to me. |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | behnamoh 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In Iran right now... Internet shut down while the regime keeps slaughtering people at the order of 4x9/11. |
| |
| ▲ | throwaway758439 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Internet is exploited by US as a tool for regime change [1] in coordination with sponsored on the ground terrorism. [1] [1] Washington’s War on Iran: The Importance of Defending Information Space https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJm4zwZZHY | | |
| ▲ | behnamoh 19 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | No, the internet is shut down by the islamic regime, not the US! | |
| ▲ | Ajedi32 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ah yes, of course it's entirely America's fault Iran's citizens are revolting against the despotic theocratic regime currently in power. Because surely nobody would organically want regime change when the ayatollah is such a nice guy. Better cut off internet access to the entire country, can't have our citizens reading that terrorist propaganda. They can get all their information from reliable sources instead, like our state-sponsored TV stations. | |
| ▲ | throwawayheui57 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hey if anyone wants know exactly what Iranian state TV spews every day on national TV, look no further. Very faithful to the source material. Totally trustworthy. |
| |
| ▲ | sgt 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think you need to try to get MUCH more video and photo footage out. I heard thousands have been killed. |
|
|
| ▲ | bcraven 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Back in the 2010s I used the 'Notes' applications to send messages via Bluetooth on my Sony Ericsson to chat with a girl in the next bunk. There was no signal in the remote Irish hostel so it was the perfect way to send messages covertly in the dormitory. Fun night! |
| |
|
| ▲ | ifwinterco 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In theory if as many people use bitchat as used whatsapp somewhere like central london, everyone actually could communicate in a fully decentralised manner - you're frequently in bluetooth range of other people's phones just walking around or even sat in your house. Would that actually happen? No, but it's an interesting thought experiment |
| |
| ▲ | maqp 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | So other users are broadcasting messages of third parties onwards? How many devices does it take to saturate the channel? What does this do for phone battery? | | |
| ▲ | ifwinterco 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, but messages can be encrypted so relaying parties can't read them. And yes, it would have an effect on battery and have very limited bandwidth compared to whatsapp (no sharing videos etc). Like I said definitely not practical for messaging but I think something along these lines is how airtags work? | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > definitely not practical for messaging Text based messaging ala IRC? Just how quickly and how much do you type? A few hundred KiB exchanged between nodes only every 10 seconds or so ought to be able to accommodate thousands of simultaneous users in most scenarios. The impact on battery life should be far less than using a bluetooth headset. | | |
| ▲ | ifwinterco 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sorry I should be clearer: I think it actually might be feasible in a high population density area and if everyone uses it, but because of the limited range of bluetooth you really do need a high density of active nodes for it to work reliably. A messaging system that often takes hours or days to get messages to the receiver is fairly useless and people will continue to prefer centralised systems, so there's a severe chicken-and-egg problem to solve there before anything like this can work | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's no reason a mesh network can't use an internet connection as a transport when it's available. Moreover a P2P capable mesh can even make use of a centralized server in such scenarios. At the end of the day it's "just" a message routing and delivery problem. When I enable WiFi calling on my phone that doesn't preclude it connecting to a cell tower. | | |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | gchokov 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This particular one supports mesh, so the range could be way way higher. |
|
| ▲ | jcims 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've wanted something like this numerous times for long flights. I also have recently got into caving, which usually results in 5-50 people camping over weekends in rural Kentucky. No signal most of the time. |
|
| ▲ | elicash 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Asking "what good is this?" in a dismissive tone should be against the rules in a space like Hacker News. |
|
| ▲ | melting_snow 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I see two use cases:
* Communication between protestors
* Illegal activities, but here I can imagine that bluetooth range is too small |
| |
| ▲ | 3RTB297 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The use cases stem from groups needing coordination in roughly the same area, with no internet. Disaster recovery efforts fit this exactly: Doctors Without Borders feeding centers in a famine far from anywhere, searching for people in the rubble of a building following an earthquake, searching for people in a refugee camp, etc. Verizon went down in the US this past week - perfect use case for Bitchat (or Meshtastic with a repeater or some other LoRa BT network). Verizon goes down while you're at the mall or store or Disneyland or whatever and you can still text to find each other. 300m max range with line of sight would cover something like when I go to visit my parents who live in a desert canyon with lousy mobile phone coverage, I can send a message that I'm at the gate and put the dogs in the garage. | | |
| ▲ | maqp 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is this LoRa BT network thing something that actually exists? Is there a coverage map? | | |
| ▲ | c16 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are yes for Meshtastic. This map seems to have the highest coverage of people sharing their nodes, but in reality in my area there are significantly more which are not shown on the map. https://meshtastic.liamcottle.net/ | | |
| ▲ | maqp 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Whoa, at the same time it's negligible but also a LOT more than I expected. Thanks! |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | thijson 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I remember reading that men and women in Saudi Arabia are forbidden from interacting directly in a bar setting. So instead they were using Bluetooth to covertly connect and communicate. | |
| ▲ | catlifeonmars 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Communication between protestors
> Illegal activities Often one and the same since the first thing those in power try to do is make various activities by protestors illegal | |
| ▲ | Almondsetat 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is simply an app that allows to communicate through bluetooth locally. Why are you saying its only two use cases are protesting and criminals? | | |
| ▲ | melting_snow 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Im not saying that those are the only use cases, but I really see that there multiple other apps that make the "normal" communication much easier. |
| |
| ▲ | reddalo 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I remember when Telegram had a "Nearby" feature. I remember seeing many not-so-legal activities around me, even in the range of 1 km. |
|
|
| ▲ | ellis0n 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have seen a test of bitchat using radio communication over a distance of more than 5 km. There were also other methods to extend BT range. |
|
| ▲ | kozika 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Now that Wi-Fi Aware is supported on iOS, I think supporting it should significantly expand the transmission range. |
|
| ▲ | 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
|
| ▲ | jojobas 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| When your Ayatollah decides to shut down internet and you are near people you don't really know in an urban environment? |
|
| ▲ | pbiggar 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Consider if you live in Gaza. Israel has destroyed all the telecoms equipment across the Gaza strip (and everything else). You were ordered to leave your home by Israeli soldiers, but now the school you're sheltering in is being bombed. You may need to leave, but you believe there may be sniper drones outside. - You want to check in with people around you about what to do
- You want to check on the health of your family, from whom you were separated |
