| ▲ | jordanb 4 hours ago |
| While I'm concerned about the environmental challenges of reversing the trend and increasing energy consumption, I'm happy that people are living in more comfortable homes, that the Amercian industrial base is being restored, that more and better services are being provided (better healthcare, inexpensive and healthy food, comfortable, efficient and inexpensive transportation). That is what we're using this electricity for, right? |
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| ▲ | andsoitis 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > That is what we're using this electricity for, right? Yes, amongst others. > increasing energy consumption, I'm happy that people are living in more comfortable homes, that the Amercian industrial base is being restored, that more and better services are being provided (better healthcare, inexpensive and healthy food, comfortable, efficient and inexpensive transportation). Over the last 25 years, we've the seen the following change across the dimensions you picked: Energy consumption: +15% Population: +21% Hospitals (hospital sector size as a function using employment as proxy): +45-50% Homes: +27-30% Food production: +23-25% Transportation (vehicle miles travelled): +14-16% ------ Some take-aways: Population grew faster than energy and transportation, implying major efficiency gains. Housing stock outpaced population, reflecting smaller household sizes and more single-person households. Healthcare expanded far faster than population, a structural shift rather than demographic necessity. Food production grew roughly in line with population, but without proportional land expansion productivity gains. Transportation growth lagged housing growth, suggesting more remote work, urbanization, and efficiency. |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There is a push to switch from fossil fuel to electricity across the board, and that’s a good thing. Cars are the big one. However even heating is going electric (heat pumps, not resistive). Induction stovetops outperform residential gas cooktops. Some cities are even experimenting with phasing out natural gas hookups for new construction. It all adds up, and it a good thing. It doesn’t explain 100% of the growth but it’s a lot of it. > Amercian industrial base is being restored, that more and better services are being provided (better healthcare, inexpensive and healthy food, comfortable, efficient and inexpensive transportation). Trying to put concepts like “better healthcare” on to the growth of electricity demand is unrealistic but generally speaking we’re putting electricity to good use. It’s not being wasted. |
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| ▲ | slashdev 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | In Vancouver, Canada natural gas was completely phased out as of the beginning of 2025 in most new construction. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | What is NG good for? Induction cook tops perform better than gas ones, heat pumps do better than gas heaters. The only gap I can think of are just in time hot water heaters. | | |
| ▲ | vlovich123 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Perform better as in more efficient electrically, not necessarily more pleasant or efficient in the cooking process. For example, when cooking an omelette, a recommended technique is to angle the pan so the liquid part flows towards the hot part of the pan touching the flame as you slowly scrape the curds up to rest at the cooler part of the pan. AFAIK an induction cooktop is unable to simulate this technique. Now maybe there are similar ways of getting this, but there’s centuries of experience informing cooking on top of a fire in some form or another. The techniques for cooking on induction cooktops well have not been learned, taught and communicated. | |
| ▲ | nightski an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I own an induction stove, and overall really enjoy it. But there are certain types of cooking it's not nearly as well suited to (still possible, but not as good). One of those is cooking on a wok. But really it comes down to heating. Heat pumps are not universally better. We are currently sitting at -25C or so which is pretty common in the winter (it can even get a fair bit colder at times). Hardly any of the contractors around here work with heat pumps, and even the ones that do aren't aware of the latest tech. That said even if you could get a cutting edge system through sheer money/will I am not sure how it would perform without at least a gas backup. At least from an efficiency standpoint. Not to mention we have had electricity go out in the winter which can be life threatening or at least cause substantial damage to property. I can't remember ever having the gas go out. (we have generator backup but that couldn't run an electric furnace for very long). Lastly we have a gas water heater (tankless) and damn that thing is efficient. A few therms a month... | |
| ▲ | chongli an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Heat pumps do not do well when it's -40 outside. You can say "fine, but how often does it get that cold?" but consumers are not going to be happy with a heat pump if their pipes freeze during an extended cold snap. I live in Southern Ontario and I have a heat pump with an auxiliary natural gas furnace for emergency heating. The heat pump shoulders most of the heating load but the thermostat does kick on the furnace when the heat pump starts falling behind. It should also be noted that although heat pumps are very efficient, even when it's below freezing outside, they cannot raise the temperature of the house very quickly. Consumers are generally quite unhappy when it takes 8 hours to raise the temperature of the house by 1 degree, so the thermostat usually calls for the furnace to start up before things get that bad. | | |
| ▲ | Aurornis an hour ago | parent [-] | | Canada's climate is really different when it comes to the extreme cold. Heat pumps are getting better at lower temperatures, but in an environment like Canada you still want auxiliary heat to be safe. > It should also be noted that although heat pumps are very efficient, even when it's below freezing outside, they cannot raise the temperature of the house very quickly. Consumers are generally quite unhappy when it takes 8 hours to raise the temperature of the house by 1 degree That would be an undersized heat pump in any regard. The installer would be at fault for screwing up that badly. You're right that efficiency falls off at lower temperatures, 8 hours to move 1 degree would be from the installer sizing the unit wrong. | | |
| ▲ | chongli an hour ago | parent [-] | | It's not just the efficiency of the heat pump that is at issue, it's the insulation of the house. As the outside temperature plunges, the house begins cooling off much more rapidly. This means the reduced efficiency of the heat pump (operating in cold outdoor temperatures) needs to produce more heating than it would at higher temperatures, and it's just not capable of that. My house was built in the 1980s and its insulation has always been more than adequate for the original natural gas furnace to be able to heat. The heat pump I have is only a few years old and cost $12,000 installed (before tax credits). To be able to rapidly heat the house when it's -40 outside would require a system costing several times that! Much cheaper just to use a furnace for those few days per year. |
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| ▲ | beached_whale 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Better is subjective here. Vancouver will be a bit different with it's warmer weather, but for the week or two at -30C to -40C(like I get) it provides a lot more heat at a lower price and in Canada, at least Ontario, it is still much cheaper to heat a home and water with. I'll probably go heat pump if my boiler goes as I can avoid the cost of adding ductwork(really expensive these days and more than furnace for install) and get A\C too. | |
| ▲ | spockz an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think NG outperforms in high efficiency heaters when the outside temperature is around 1-4 degrees Celsius with humidity as it causes ice buildup on the external unit which then has to be cleared using resistive heating. Also if only little hot water is required sporadically, heating it just in time with gas is more efficient than keeping a buffer heated for long times. Also, heat pumps do best when the temperature differential is lower. So in older housing without floor heating or duct heating, it is typically not as efficient to use a heat pump when the water to heat has to be above 55 degrees Celsius. For any new residential construction I think there is very little value in natural gas. | |
| ▲ | walthamstow an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Induction is better in some ways and worse in others. It's so efficient and boils water like crazy but at low settings it's almost always pulsed rather than continuous and I've never liked that. I have both in my kitchen. | |
| ▲ | tastyfreeze 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Gas cooktops are good for still being able to cook when the power is out. | | |
| ▲ | Aurornis an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Interesting fact: A lot of modern gas cooktops have safety features that will cut the gas off when the electricity is out. The safety mechanisms are powered by electricity, so if they can't confirm that the operation is safe they fail with the gas valve shut off. It comes as a surprise to most users because power outages are so rare. They just assume it will work until 8 years later when they try to cook something during the first long outage in their area. | | |
| ▲ | 3eb7988a1663 40 minutes ago | parent [-] | | TIL. Never used a modern gas stove, so I had not considered that without a pilot light, there must be a way to disable the flow or constantly spew gas into the house. Then again, I have had a pilot light go out for some amount of time without obvious ill effect, so the volume of gas must be low. | | |
| ▲ | tastyfreeze 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Pilot lights stay lit all the time so no igniter is required. My range has electric spark igniters. They don't work when the power is out but there is also no pilot light expelling gas. I just manually light the burner when the power is out. |
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| ▲ | megaman821 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You could get a small propane burner or a lot of people have propane grills (sometimes with burners) in their backyards. Gas burners and stoves aren't bad but expanding the gas network to new homes is a huge expense. | |
| ▲ | danans 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I recommend a backup butane stove, which is what I have for outages where my induction stove doesn't work. Also an outdoor camp chef stove. Both are cheap and work great. My camp chef doubles as an outdoor pizza oven. | |
| ▲ | microtonal an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I am not sure where you live, but I cannot remember the last time our power went out (Western Europe). I have gas-cooked since I was a kid (living in an area with a lot of natural gas, so houses were connected to gas since the 50ies), but induction is so much nicer that I'm happy to not be able to cook during a once in a ~10-20 year outage. Also a lot safer (it still happens quite frequently that a house blows up because of a gas leak, just this week there was a huge explosion in Utrecht what was presumably a gas leak). Of course, the equation may change for countries with less stable power. | | |
| ▲ | tastyfreeze 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | On an island, in a rainforest with regular storms. The power goes out multiple times a year due to trees falling on power lines. We also don't have municipal gas lines piped everywhere. Delivery only. If you have a leak they won't deliver until its fixed. | |
| ▲ | compumike 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's very local here. I'm in the suburbs of Philadelphia, in one of the highest income counties in the state, two blocks from a major hospital, one block from a suburban downtown. Despite that, I've experienced one or two 4-6 hour long power outages per year the past few years. (Mostly correlated with weather.) One outage in June 2025 was 50 hours long! Many larger homes in this area have whole-house generators (powered by utility natural gas) with automatic transfer switches. During the 50-hour outage, we "abandoned ship" and stayed with someone who also had an outage, but had a whole-house generator. Other areas just 5-10 miles away are like what you describe: maybe one outage in the past 10 years. | |
| ▲ | jlarocco an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sadly one of those countries is the United States. Here in Colorado they've started pre-emptively shutting off power during wind storms when it's hot and dry because there have been multiple instances of wind blowing down power lines which then start big fires. We had one instance in December where the power was out 2-3 days for tens of thousands of people, and over a week for some people. Of course the problem is that nobody wants to pay to bury the lines. They'd need all new equipment for digging, to retrain all of the technicians, and get permission from a million different entities to dig up their land. We're effectively locked in to overhead cables. | |
| ▲ | bell-cot an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I am not sure where you live, but I cannot remember the last time... Here in SE Michigan (USA) I have quite a few friends who've totaled more than 15 days without power in the past couple years. Most of that in multi-day outages. | |
| ▲ | Kye an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm on a decent power co-op that keeps the lines clear and has a fleet of trucks ready to roll before storms, but it still goes out when some drunk fool takes a run at a power pole or when lightning hits the right spot. And then there's the wind. Good management can only do so much. Outages only last 1-4 hours at most though, so a LED lamp plugged in to a UPS is more than enough. |
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| ▲ | jordanb an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Gas stoves need electricity for the starter these days. Maybe you can get a really old one with a pilot light. It's far easier to provide a backup for electric appliances using a generator, than it is to store CNG onsite for gas interruption. | | | |
| ▲ | Retric an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Batteries or Generators don’t just let you cook and stay warm when the power is out but do everything else such as keep food cold as well. | | |
| ▲ | microtonal an hour ago | parent [-] | | Do induction cooking tops work well on batteries (or generators)? IIRC our induction plate has two-phase power because it can pull more than 3.6kW. | | |
| ▲ | Retric an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure, as long as you size the system to expected loads. An 8kW generator suitable for occasional use is only ~1,000$. A Powerwall 3 does 11kW continuous and peaks at 30kW for transitory loads like starting heavy equipment. The most convenient solution where a generator automatically kicks in during a power outage requires an electrician and extra equipment, but there’s also real tradeoffs to having gas lines going to your home. | |
| ▲ | maxerickson an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are models that include a battery to reduce the input power requirement. That's not quite the same as the question, but it answers it, you just need a big enough battery and they are fine. |
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| ▲ | rdn 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If the power goes out I can still cook and heat with gas. *this is a regular occurence in some countries | |
| ▲ | diego_moita 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > What is NG good for? Mostly a myth by cooks that think it "heats faster" or "heats with a better distribution of heat". It is foolish, but many still think so. I personally believe that the only kind of cooking that benefits from NG are round-bottom woks. But they can be substituted by flat-bottom pans without problems. | | |
| ▲ | moregrist an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > Mostly a myth by cooks that think it "heats faster" It’s almost entirely about heat _control_, especially when you turn the heat down or off. Non-induction electric stoves can take minutes or longer for a burner to cool down. When you cut the heat on a NG stove, it’s essentially immediate. This matters quite a bit for heat-sensitive dishes like omelettes. Induction doesn’t have this problem, but also hasn’t been widely available until maybe recently and won’t work on a lot of aluminum cookware. So you’re asking people to change their cookware along with their range. That can be a bridge too far for many. | |
| ▲ | chongli an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Flat bottom woks need a lot more oil to stir fry properly, due to the lack of pooling. Flat bottom woks on electric cooktops (radiant or induction) also tend to have essentially nonexistent heating of the side slopes, preventing you from using the technique of splashing soy sauce (and other cooking sauces, as well as cooking wines) in a wide arc so that it reduces rapidly to form a sticky coating for the food. Instead, all of the sauce will just run down to the bottom where it joins the rest of the liquids coming out of the food, contributing to boiling/steaming rather than stir frying. | |
| ▲ | youngtaff 36 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Burning gas also releases a lot of pollutants — we’ve a gas hob but always switch the extractor on when we use it because of this |
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| ▲ | setgree 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We are indeed living in more comfortable homes. Americans are migrating to the sunbelt because of ample AC in the summer and the winters are pleasant. that’s a big part of why we have many fewer heat deaths per capita than Europe: https://www.thetimes-tribune.com/2025/08/02/opinion-us-heat-... |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You don’t realize how nice it is to live and work in air conditioned spaces until visiting a part of Europe where AC is viewed with disdain for reasons I still don’t understand. Also the move to electric heat pumps is increasing electricity rates but reducing natural gas usage and improving overall efficient. The GP comment was trying to do snarky doomerism but accidentally hit upon a lot of truths. It’s amazing how many things are getting better but some people are hell bent on being cynical about it anyway. | | |
| ▲ | some-guy 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I’m not from Europe but those sentiments I think are changing with the recent intensity and frequency of heat waves. | |
| ▲ | buckle8017 42 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > You don’t realize how nice it is to live and work in air conditioned spaces until visiting a part of Europe where AC is viewed with disdain for reasons I still don’t understand. Most of Europe is poor. AC is expensive. It's actually that simple. There's AC in Switzerland. |
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| ▲ | adventured 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Europe is so backwards when it comes to annual heat deaths that they manage to have more heat deaths per year than the US has gun deaths + heat deaths combined. You won't hear about that from Europeans though, it'd make them seem barbaric. 175,000 heat deaths per year in Europe according to the WHO. It's a staggering genocide of technological primitiveness. Imagine having millions of people die because you can't be bothered to adopt 1950s technology (and of course I'm aware of the things the US is backwards on). | | |
| ▲ | laurencerowe 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I think it is simply because in most of Europe air conditioning is unnecessary for comfort 95% of the year. Here in San Francisco most homes don't have air conditioning either, but there might be a week or two where it gets very hot and we just put up with the barbaric technological primitiveness. Much of the US is extremely unpleasant without air-conditioning for a substantial portion of the year so of course everyone living in those parts installs it. | |
| ▲ | microtonal an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think there wasn't a culture of buying ACs, because in most of Europe the climate was much more moderate. The summers are much hotter now than when I was a kid and heat waves are more regular. Many more people are buying air conditioning now. Much of the US already had warmer summers than Europe when the impact of climate change was smaller, so AC is far more common. | |
| ▲ | rpdillon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You sent me to the books because this is such a fascinating stat. It's true! Heat deaths in the US: 5 per million people. Italy: 500+ per million people. I had no idea. | | |
| ▲ | laurencerowe 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Figures based on coroners reports are somewhat suspect. > In September 2022, a vicious heat wave enveloped much of the western U.S., placing tens of millions of people under heat advisories. Temperatures across California soared into the triple digits. Sacramento broke its heat record by more than 6 degrees Fahrenheit when the temperature hit 116 degrees. > California death certificates showed that 20 people died as a result of heat-related illness from Aug. 31, 2022 to Sept. 9, 2022. > But a study last year by California’s Department of Public Health found that death rates increased by about 5 percent statewide during the heat wave, causing 395 additional deaths. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/u-s-deaths-from-h... Excess mortality studies seem to show about 24 per 100,000 excess deaths from heat in Europe vs 6 in US/Canada. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34245712/ | |
| ▲ | CorrectHorseBat an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I do think we'll need to change our view on airconditioning, every home should have airconditioning just like it has heating. But I'm very sceptical of those numbers. They are apparently even worse for cold, and you can't attribute that to lack of airconditioning. I still think the huge difference can only be attributed to a difference in reporting. |
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| ▲ | rdn 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Can their pension system afford A/C? |
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| ▲ | trollbridge 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I spoke with two working class people last week who are facing power shutoffs because they got an unexpected $700 power bill. Not sure if it were a sneaky electricity supplier change or if costs have simply gone up. But the problem of consumer rates just always ratcheting up needs addressed. |
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| ▲ | catketch 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That happens when people are on variable rate or TOU plans, it's very common. "sneaky" may or not be part of it, since ostensibly there's a contract that defines the terms of the electrical service, so it shouldn't be a surprise. But for a lot of folks it's a lot to keep track of, there can be confusing terminology, and yes, some energy retailers are predatory in their plan marketing or contract terms. It's a double edged sword of free market choice in deregulated markets. People that have choices for their energy supply don't always have the time and knowledge to optimize their plan choices and electricity use to get "optimum" pricing. This is why there's pushback in some areas that have had deregulated energy markets to go back to regulated pricing, the "average consumer" isn't seeing the payoff of the free market (even if that is technically "their fault"). | | |
| ▲ | Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I kind of doubt a single surprise bill that happened to arrive in the winter is a TOU plan change. If someone changes to a TOU plan and their bill shoots up, they’re smart enough to blame the plan change and cite that Most surprise winter time bills are just excess electric heater usage, such as after the purchase of a couple space heaters without thinking about the overall cost. > This is why there's pushback in some areas that have had deregulated energy markets What areas have deregulated residential electricity? | |
| ▲ | trollbridge 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | The “optimum” pricing is one that rips off the customer the most. A deregulated free market for utilities doesn’t work because bad actors will find ways to do so through complex contracts. |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Electricity prices are heavily regulated. The largest increase I can find from a short search is around 20% for some customers in New Jersey. The average year over year increase is closer to 6% Unexpectedly high electricity bills are almost always from actual usage. Unexpectedly high winter electricity bills are usually from resistive electric heating in one way or another. You didn’t mention their normal December bill in this exact house, which is an important piece of information. | | |
| ▲ | trollbridge 18 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | One of the families mentioned heats their home with natural gas. I suspect they got slammed with an alternative energy supplier that charges abusively high rates. With that said, the total cost to the consumer of electricity is 3X what it was 20 years ago, and I am in one of the cheapest markets. | |
| ▲ | reylas an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You are part of the PJM. Read into what the "Fuel Adjustment" actually is. Yes, prices are regulated, but if your area is short of power, they can buy it from the PJM, usually from other sources they own, at "market" rate not regulated rate. The Fuel Adjustment is the legal loophole difference in the regulated rate vs the market rate. A few scheduled maintenance windows and oh look, we are short power. | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Texas is really different, it could be from there. |
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| ▲ | blitzar 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Prices only go one way. Without inflation, debt has to be repaid in more expensive $'s than it was created in and the whole system goes boom. |
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| ▲ | b65e8bee43c2ed0 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| the US is not a planned economy. if it was, computers would exist only to guide missiles and operate industrial machinery, and you would be mining coal, farming wheat, or manning an assembly line for a living. |
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| ▲ | echelon 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Some of the economy should be encouraged with heavy subsidy or though DoD purchases. It's worked out well for us in the past. Wind and solar, nuclear, EVs, manufacturing, robots, chips, and drones should be helped along by the state. We would be stupid not to spend in these categories. We should also build out chemical inputs manufacture, rare earths refining, pharmaceutical manufacture, etc. to support the work that happens downstream and to be less fragile to supply chain disruption. A multi-polar world is inherently less stable and demands more self-sufficiency. | |
| ▲ | gchamonlive 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Its not a planned economy by the government, because the US is an oligarchy. The billionaires are deciding how the government should plan investments in infrastructure and social policies. They have been able to lower the taxes that affect the richest (big beautiful bill) and cut spending on social programs (Medicaid). So it surely looks to me like the US economy is following a plan, just not the one that's in the best interest of the population -- which is OP's original criticism. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Its not a planned economy by the government This just seems like a quibble over wording, given that "planned economy" is generally assumed to refer to economic planning by some governmental authority. Nobody thinks the opposite of a "planned economy" is everyone just going based off vibes, for instance. | |
| ▲ | stevenwoo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The available selection of automobiles available for sale feels like a good example of huge distortion caused by regulatory capture and tariffs imposed for same industries. |
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| ▲ | Fraterkes 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | …and I wouldn’t have to read this kind of drivel. Sounds like a blessing. |
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| ▲ | browningstreet an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’m guessing there’s a strong “/S” after this post.. |
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| ▲ | blell 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s a political imperative to get rid of everybody who thinks increasing energy consumption is a bad thing. |
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| ▲ | justin66 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Better: advertising! |
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| ▲ | gtirloni 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Forgot /s |
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| ▲ | le-mark 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That’s what I was thinking, clearly sarcasm because none of that is true. |
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| ▲ | pton_xd an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > That is what we're using this electricity for, right? Ok, I'll say it: it's for AI datacenters to train chat bots. |
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| ▲ | spwa4 an hour ago | parent [-] | | You know, we don't have any choice! We need more power. It's getting so tough to get something to tell Trump he isn't totally fucking up America. |
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