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littlestymaar 6 hours ago

There's a tricky ethical question here: if someone changed their name and ask for not being called their former name ever again, you can either ignore their will, which is rude, or chose to follow it but then you are doing a disservice to the public's understanding.

The secind option used to be the norm on wikipedia even 15 years ago, but Anti-trans activists using dead-naming as a slur against trans people triggered the shift from the second option to the first.

As usual assholes are why we can't have nice things.

mrighele 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> There's a tricky ethical question here: if someone changed their name and ask for not being called their former name ever again, you can either ignore their will, which is rude, or chose to follow it but then you are doing a disservice to the public's understanding.

Calling somebody with his former name and mentioning his former name in a Wikipedia page are two completely different things. Using the fact that the former is seen as rude by some to avoid the second is in my opinion just an example of the level of extremism of the pro-trans activists.

But if in fact it made sense, shouldn't we completely remove any reference of the previous name also from the pages of people like Yusuf Islam [1] or Muhammad Ali [2] ?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Stevens

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali

could-of an hour ago | parent | next [-]

According to MOS:GENDERID [1], a person's former name can be used when they were notable under that name. You're trying to make it out as if there's some nefarious double standard when there's not, editors just want Wikipedia to be clear and encyclopedic.

It's incredible that in a discussion about brutal violence against a child, the child victim is being painted as the "extremist"!

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biog...

philistine 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Notability. Those two celebrities were known for a very long time under their old name. To prevent confusion, their old name is shown.

The victim of a crime was not notable before their name change.

whycome 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Notability is subjective

komali2 5 hours ago | parent [-]

In the Universe, yes. In the closed system of Wikipedia, no, it's a well defined term with clearly established criteria, tested over the years on thousands of Talk pages on controversial pages, of how to achieve consensus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability

ajsnigrutin 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Many married women are known under their husbands last names, from Maria Salomea Skłodowska, Betty Marion Ludden to Melanija Knavs. Some celebrities even use stage names, such as Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta.

Many of these women are not really known under those names, but somehow, they're still listed on their wiki pages.

littlestymaar 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Most of the married women on Wikipedia didn't get the choice of keeping their own name, so we cannot really compare it to someone who changed their name.

Same for stage names, people don't use stage name because they want to escape their former name, they use stage names because it's cool.

And when people use a pseudonym and want to keep their real identity secret for personal reasons, their name doesn't appear on Wikipedia, and nobody is ever complaining about that! It's as if people were obsessed by trans people in particular…

ajsnigrutin 2 hours ago | parent [-]

But it's not a secret, the name has been mentioned in mainsteam media on multiple occasions, and even here, in this thread on HN.

> It's as if people were obsessed by trans people in particular…

Yet, they keep every other name on wikipedia, especially if we're talking about peoples legal names, except if the person was trans for some reason. Wikipedia is the one making exceptions here for one group in particular.

littlestymaar 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Calling somebody with his former name and mentioning his former name in a Wikipedia page are two completely different things

Except when people keep vandalizing Wikipedia renaming people there with their dead name. And yes it happens over and over and over again.

Because the most active extremists on the topic are by far the anti-trans crowd. (And it's not even close, there are trans people assaulted every week, sometimes going as far as murder this is extremism).

And again, Wikipedia keeps mentioning the former name when it's necessary (look for Bradley Manning on Wikipedia, the page redirects to Chelsea Manning but the old name is state because it's important).

113 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> level of extremism of the pro-trans activists

What on earth are you talking about?

eimrine 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Sometimes it easier to downvote that Earthian than to argue.

komali2 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The use of the masculine pronoun here when we're referring to someone who transitioned from male kind of gives away that you're probably less concerned with searchability and preservation of history, and more concerned with promoting a transphobic agenda. I suppose it's possible you were using it as a generic pronoun, but in that case I would have expected "they." Am I wrong?

eimrine 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Your statement can be reversed amasingly. It is easier to proof that it is your side of frontline who does not care about searchability than what you have said. And therefore it is easire to suspect you in promoting an old Klaus Schwabbe's fairytale about DEI missvalues. There are no reasons of calling one person as "they" because we use to call a person who will always have hairs on his face as "male".

komali2 an hour ago | parent [-]

So, you don't think I'm wrong? The OP used "he" because they have a transphobic agenda?

> because we use to call a person who will always have hairs on his face as "male".

We may not have solved the question, "what is a woman," but you have brilliantly solved the question, "what is a man": a human with eyebrows.

lukan 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"if someone changed their name and ask for not being called their former name ever again"

Writing someone was called XYZ, is not calling the person by that name again. It is just stating a historic fact.

philistine 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Not all historic facts are relevant. Using someone’s old name when relevance can be achieved by stating the person was transgender is preferable.

reorder9695 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I personally prefer not having other people decide for me which facts are and aren't relevant, I think that is unhelpful and potentially dangerous (some people think what happened in Tienanmen Square isn't relevant to the general population, do you agree?).

For a transgender person, I may have known them before they transitioned for example and may not necessarily be familiar with their new name, that's a reason off the top of my head that it would be relevant to me but not necessarily you.

grayhatter 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> I personally prefer not having other people decide for me which facts are and aren't relevant, I think that is unhelpful and potentially dangerous (some people think what happened in Tienanmen Square isn't relevant to the general population, do you agree?).

I couldn't agree more, it's wrong to decide what facts someone else is allowed to know. Please tell me the most embarrassing details of your life?

Perhaps there's nuance and different standards we can apply when talking about individuals, especially individuals who have been bullied or abused? Than the standards we apply when a powerful group is trying to cover up a violent attack against another?

> For a transgender person, I may have known them before they transitioned for example and may not necessarily be familiar with their new name, that's a reason off the top of my head that it would be relevant to me but not necessarily you.

I have a very hard time understanding this example, you're concerned that you, who knew this person but only knew their older name, won't be able to find thier wikipedia page via searching for their old name? Which is true because their old name isn't listed on the page itself?

I don't find that very compelling, did you mean something different?

komali2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I personally prefer not having other people decide for me which facts are and aren't relevant,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't any presentation of information prepared by humans, information wherein someone else decided which facts were relevant? The only way around this I can think of is personal performance of all experimentation in human history from first principles. Unfortunately you will probably need to learn those first principles through reading things written by other humans.

squigz an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> I personally prefer not having other people decide for me which facts are and aren't relevant

Then reading Wikipedia probably isn't a great idea.

graemep 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Its omitting information which seems antithetical to the whole point of Wikipedia. It makes it harder to find other sources of information on someone. it makes it harder to make connections between things you know.

Its really not very different from a Wikipedia article using an author's pseudonym mentioning their real name.

Should all Wikipedia articles on people omit information that the subject of the article does not want mentioned? Even if they find it distressing?

squigz an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> It makes it harder to find other sources of information on someone

No it doesn't. Googling or searching on Wikipedia for either name yields the same page.

littlestymaar 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Its omitting information which seems antithetical to the whole point of Wikipedia.

Wikipedia isn't a database of private information on individuals. On most celebrities pages you won't find their infidelities record either, unless it has some historical relevance.

> Its really not very different from a Wikipedia article using an author's pseudonym mentioning their real name.

In fact, when an author made it publicly clear that they didn't want their real name be known, Wikipedia usually respect their choice (until their real name stops being private information and gets historical relevance).

And somehow anti-trans activists seem to care much less. How surprising, really.

usui 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The secind option used to be the norm on wikipedia even 15 years ago, but Anti-trans activists using dead-naming as a slur against trans people triggered the shift from the second option to the first.

Just to clarify, I think you mistook the order of the first option and the second option? I was confused by this statement

kmaitreys 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think what should be neutral account of factual events should take into account if it would be rude to an individual.

littlestymaar 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There's no such thing “as neutral account of factual events”, it's a “map and territory” thing, you always have to weight if something is relevant and this is always a subjective exercise.

And then you have to ponder the relevance with whether or not publishing may cause harm.

Let's take an example, unrelated to the topic: why aren't the addresses of stars, or the identification number of billionaires personal jets, listed on Wikipedia? Because it's not relevant, and can be harmful.

And it's the same thing for trans people's name. Most of the time, their birth name is irrelevant and can even be harmful. But sometimes, when it's important, the name will still be there, with the redirection and all, see https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning

And, by the way, this isn't a Wikipedia thing, this is how press right works! Newspapers get sued all the time for mentioning irrelevant personal information about people, and lose.

dungg 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

these snowflakes who think the world revolves around them always ruin everything

always offended by something