| ▲ | anoojb 7 hours ago |
| So let's say TMSC reciprocated Apple's consistency as a customer by giving them preferential treatment for capacity. It's good business after all. However, everyone knows that good faith reciprocity at that scale is not rewarded. Apple is ruthless. There are probably thousands of untold stories of how hard Apple has hammered it's suppliers over the years. While Apple has good consumer brand loyalty, they arguably treat their suppliers relatively poorly compared to the Gold standard like Costco. |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| At this scale and volume, it's not really about good faith. Changing fabs is non-trivial. If they pushed Apple to a point where they had to find an alternative (which is another story) and Apple did switch, they would have to work extra hard to get them back in the future. Apple wouldn't want to invest twice in changing back and forth. On the other hand, TSMC knows that changing fabs is not really an option and Apple doesn't want to do it anyway, so they have leverage to squeeze. At this level, everyone knows it's just business and it comes down to optimizing long-term risk/reward for each party. |
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| ▲ | philistine 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Apple has used both Samsung and TSMC for its chips in the past. Until the A7 it was Samsung, A8 was TSMC, and the A9 was dual-sourced by both! Apple is used to switching between suppliers fairly often for a tech company; it's not that it's too hard for them to switch fab, it's that TSMC is the only competitive fab right now. There are rumours that Intel might have won some business from them in 2 years. I could totally see Apple turning to Intel for the Mac chips, since they're much lower volume. I know it sounds crazy, we just got rid of Intel, but I'm talking using Intel as a fab, not going back to x86. Those are done. | | |
| ▲ | lukan 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But wasn't the reason they split with Samsung because they copied the iphone in the perspective of Jobs (to which he reacted with thermonuclear threats)? They did had the expertise building it after all. What would happen, if TSMC now would build a M1 clone? I doubt this is a way anyone wants to go, but it seems a implied threat to me that is calculated in. | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Job's thermonuclear threats were about Android & Google, not Samsung because Schmidt was on Apple's board during the development of Android. > "I will spend my last dying breath if I need to, and I will spend every penny of Apple’s $40 billion in the bank, to right this wrong. I’m going to destroy Android, because it’s a stolen product. I’m willing to go thermonuclear war on this." The falling out with Samsung was related, but more about the physical look of the phone | |
| ▲ | fragmede 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Doesn't seem likely, TBH. Nevermind the legal agreements they would be violating, TSMC fabs Qualcomm's Snapdragon line of ARM processors. The M1 is good, but not that good (it's a couple generations old by this point, for one). Samsung had a phone line of their own to put it in as well. TSMC does not. |
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| ▲ | chippiewill an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I thought Intel was too far behind on their process nodes? | | |
| ▲ | wtallis an hour ago | parent [-] | | At the end of the month, laptops with Intel's latest processors will start shipping. These use Intel's 18A process for the CPU chiplet. That makes Intel the first fab to ship a process using backside power delivery. There's no third party testing yet to verify if Intel is still far behind TSMC when power, performance and die size are all considered, but Intel is definitely making progress, and their execs have been promising more for the future, such as their 14A process. |
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| ▲ | CodeWriter23 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Apple is the company that just over 10 years ago made a strategic move to remove Intel from their supply chain by purchasing a semiconductor firm and licensing ARM. Managing 'painful' transitions is a core competency of theirs. | | |
| ▲ | Zafira 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you’re correct that they’re good at just ripping the band-aid off, but the details seem off. AFAIK, Apple has always had a license with ARM and a very unique one since they were one of the initial investors when it was spun out from Acorn. In fact, my understanding is that Apple is the one that insisted they call themselves Advanced RISC Machines Ltd. because they did not want Acorn (a competitor) in the name of a company they were investing in. | |
| ▲ | wtallis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which acquisition are you referring to? Apple bought PA Semi in 2008 and Intrinsity in 2010. |
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| ▲ | MBCook 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not all of Apple‘s chips need to be fabbed at the smallest size, those could certainly go elsewhere. I’m sure they already do. Is there anyone who can match TSMC at this point for the top of the line M or A chips? Even if Intel was ready and Apple wanted to would they be able to supply even 10% of what Apple needs for the yearly iPhone supply? | |
| ▲ | 7speter 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I would imagine they could split their orders between different fabricators; they can put in orders for the most cutting edge chips for the latest Macs and iPhones at TSMC and go elsewhere for less cutting edge chips? | | |
| ▲ | fsckboy 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | presumably they already do that (since non cutting edge chip fab is likely to be more competitive and less expensive) so, given they are already doing that, this problem refers to the cutting edge allocations which are getting scare as exemplified at least by Nvidia's growth |
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| ▲ | jongjong 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's ridiculous that a trillion dollar company feels beholden to a supplier. With that kind of money, it should be trivial to switch. People forget Nvidia didn't even exist 35 years ago. It would probably take like 3 to 5 years to catch up with the benefit of hindsight and existing talent and tools? And anyway consumers don't really need beefy devices nowadays. Running local LLM on a smartphone is a terrible idea due to battery life and no graphics card; AI is going to be running on servers for quite some time if not forever. It's almost as if there is a constant war to suppress engineer wages... That's the only variable being affected here which could benefit from increased competition. If tech sector is so anti-competitive, the government should just seize it and nationalize it. It's not capitalism when these megacorps put all this superficial pressure but end up making deals all the time. We need more competition, no deals! If they don't have competition, might as well have communism. | | |
| ▲ | weslleyskah 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I know you are maybe joking but I don't think the government nationalizing the tech sector would be a good idea. They can pull down the salaries even more if they want. It can become a dead end job with you stuck on archaic technology from older systems. Government jobs should only be an option if there are enough social benefits. | | |
| ▲ | jongjong an hour ago | parent [-] | | I'm joking yes but as an engineer who has seen the bureaucracy in most big tech companies, the joke is getting less funny over time. I've met many software engineers who call themselves communists. I can kind of understand. This kind of communist-like bureaucracy doesn't work well in a capitalist environment. It's painful to work in tech. It's like our hands are tied and are forced to do things in a way we know is inefficient. Companies use 'security' as an excuse to restrict options (tools and platforms), treat engineers as replaceable cogs as an alternative to trusting them to do their job properly... And the companies harvest what they sow. They get reliable cogs, well versed in compliance and groupthink and also coincidentally full-blown communists; they're the only engineers remaining who actually enjoy the insane bureaucracy and the social climbing opportunities it represents given the lack of talent. | | |
| ▲ | weslleyskah an hour ago | parent [-] | | I understand completely. I'm going through a computer engineering degree at the moment, but I am thinking about pursuing Law later on. Looking at other paths: Medicine requires expensive schooling and isn't really an option after a certain age and law, on the other hand, opened its doors too widely and now has a large underclass of people with third-tier law degrees. Perhaps you can try to accept the realities of the system while trying to live the best life that you can? Psyching yourself all the way, trying to find some sort of escape towards a good life with freedom later on... |
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| ▲ | cgio 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It can be interpreted a different way too. Apple is just a channel for TSMCs technology. Also the cost to build a fab that advanced, in say a 3 year horizon, let alone immediately available, is not one even Apple can commit to without cannibalising its core business. |
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| ▲ | sellmesoap an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| About 17 years ago I worked at a company that was clamoring to get products into Costco, when we did I was shocked at the fees they charged us for returns. If they're the gold standard for supplier relations it's a wonder anyone bothers being a supplier. |
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| ▲ | hinkley 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Apple loaned TSMC money in order to build manufacturing capacity back around the M1 era. They’ve done that for a number of suppliers and the “interest payments” were priority access to capacity. Everyone was complaining about how Apple got ARM chips while others had to wait in line. That said, they did that for a sapphire glass supplier for the Apple Watch and when their machines had QC problems they dropped them like a rock and went back to Corning. But is that really any different from any other supplier? And who tf do you think they’re going to drop TSMC for right now? They are the cock of the walk. |
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| ▲ | boringg 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Counter argument is that is NVIDIA friendly to their supply chain? I have to think that maybe they are with their massive margins because they can be - their end buyer is currently willing to absorb costs at no expense. But I don't know, and that will change as their business changes. Your underlying statement implies that whoever is replacing apple is a better buyer which I don't think is necessarily true. |
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| ▲ | philistine 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Nvidia is famously a pain to work with. Apple vowed never to use their chips, Microsoft and Sony can't get them to make any GPU for their consoles. The only complete package integrator that manages to make a relationship work with Nvidia is Nintendo. | | |
| ▲ | 7speter 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The only complete package integrator that manages to make a relationship work with Nvidia is Nintendo. And thats probably because Nintendo isn’t adding any pressure to neither TSMC nor Nvidia capacity wise; iirc Nintendo uses something like Maxwell or Pascal on really mature processes for Switch chips/socs. | | |
| ▲ | Macha 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | And also the Switch 1 was just the hardware for a nvidia shield tablet from nVidia’s perspective, without the downside of managing the customer facing side and with the greater volume from Nintendo’s market reach. (Not that it wasn’t more than that for consumers or Nintendo, just talking nvidia here) |
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| ▲ | randall 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think that works out tremendously well for Nintendo, especially when you look at the Wii-U vs the Switch. I shot a video at CNET in probably 2011 which was a single touchscreen display (i think it was the APX 2500 prototype iirc?) and it has the precise dimensions to the switch 1. Nintendo was reluctantly a hardware company... they're a game company who can make hardware, but they know they're best when they own the stack. |
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| ▲ | Y-bar 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > EVGA Terminates Relationship With Nvidia, Leaves GPU Business > According to Han, Nvidia has been difficult to work with for some time now. Like all other GPU board partners, EVGA is only told the price of new products when they're revealed to everyone on stage, making planning difficult when launches occur soon after. Nvidia also has tight control over the pricing of GPUs, limiting what partners can do to differentiate themselves in a competitive market. https://www.gamespot.com/articles/evga-terminates-relationsh... | | | |
| ▲ | marcosdumay 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If your customers are known to be antagonistic to business partners, the correct answer is to diversify them as much as you can, even at reasonable costs from anything else. That means deprioritizing your largest customer. | | |
| ▲ | boringg 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Fair I feel like that also speaks to nation+states trade policy. Also theres the devil you know and the devil you dont know. | | |
| ▲ | simonh 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yep, you can be close allies with a nation and have many shared interests, and even a trade deficit with them as we in Britain did, and then they stab you in the back with tariffs. |
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| ▲ | leoc 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Even if Apple isn't very good at reciprocating faithful service from its suppliers, there's also the matter of how it treats suppliers who cause it problems instead. |
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| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | boplicity 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Suppliers really hate working with Costco. They're slow to pay, allow for only small margins, and often need too high of a percentage of a businesses revenue, all of which is not friendly towards suppliers. |
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| ▲ | bethekidyouwant 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agreed TSMC can do whatever they want. in 2027 no other fabs will match what tsmc has today, anything that requires the latest process node is going to get more expensive, so your apple silicone and your AMD chips |
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| ▲ | high_na_euv 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | As of today Intel is very around leading node | | |
| ▲ | girvo 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'll believe it when I see it (at scale). I hope 18A is good enough as competition is good, and a weak Intel is bad for us all. |
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| ▲ | dheera 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| No public company will be loyal or nice to their suppliers. That is just not in the playbook for public companies. They have "fiduciary duty", not human duty. Private companies can be nice to their suppliers. Owners can choose to stay loyal to suppliers they went to high school with, even if it isn't the most cost-efficient. |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > they arguably treat their suppliers relatively poorly compared to the Gold standard like Costco. I’m not saying you’re wrong but you’re previous paragraph sounding like you were wondering if it was the case vs. here you’re saying it’s known. Is this all true? Do they have a reputation for hammering their suppliers? |
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| ▲ | xp84 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Apple is so notoriously ravenous for profit margin that they can’t not be that way. | | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | It felt like a more confident statement and I was legitimately asking. I have little love for Apple. Ditched my Mac Studio earlier this year for a Linux only build after 20 years of being on Macs. I say this because I think folks think I am trying to sealion/“just ask questions:tm:” or some nonsense, when I am legitimately asking if this is a documented practice and what the extent is. I am not finding it easy to find info on this. |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Apple dealt exclusively with Chinese labor prices until they were directly threatened by the POTUS. You tell me. | | |
| ▲ | yurishimo 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I got a bridge to sell you if you think that Apple is going to bring any of their manufacturing to the US... | | |
| ▲ | WillPostForFood 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c86jx18y9e2o Apple has responded and has started moving a lot of manufacturing out of China. It just makes sense for risk management. | | |
| ▲ | mullingitover 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Well, from your article: > China will remain the country of origin for the vast majority of total products sold outside the US, he added. And international sales are a solid majority of Apple's revenue. | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | From your article: > Meanwhile, Vietnam will be the chief manufacturing hub "for almost all iPad, Mac, Apple Watch and AirPods product sold in the US". > We do expect the majority of iPhones sold in US will have India as their country of origin," Mr Cook said. Still not made in the US and no plan to change that. They will be selling products made in India/Vietnam domestically and products made in China internationally. The tariffs are not bringing these jobs home. |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've seen the leaked BOMs, I'm not dumb enough to think that Americans can match it. | | | |
| ▲ | godzillabrennus 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It would be a $6000 phone if they built it in America. |
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