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gnabgib 13 hours ago

Related: Apple nears $1B Google deal for custom Gemini model to power Siri (71 points, 2 months ago, 47 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45826975

johnthuss 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The biggest NEW thing here is that this isn't white-labeled. Apple is officially acknowledging Google as the model that will be powering Siri. That explicit acknowledgment is a pretty big deal. It will make it harder for Apple to switch to its own models later on.

mdasen 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Where does it say that it won't be white-labeled?

Yes, Apple is acknowledging that Google's Gemini will be powering Siri and that is a big deal, but are they going to be acknowledging it in the product or is this just an acknowledgment to investors?

Apple doesn't hide where many of their components come from, but that doesn't mean that those brands are credited in the product. There's no "fab by TSMC" or "camera sensors by Sony" or "display by Samsung" on an iPhone box.

It's possible that Apple will credit Gemini within the UI, but that isn't contained in the article or video. If Apple uses a Gemini-based model anonymously, it would be easy to switch away from it in the future - just as Apple had used both Samsung and TSMC fabs, or how Apple has used both Samsung and Japan Display. Heck, we know that Apple has bought cloud services from AWS and Google, but we don't have "iCloud by AWS and GCP."

Yes, this is a more public announcement than Apple's display and camera part suppliers, but those aren't really hidden. Apple's dealings with Qualcomm have been extremely public. Apple's use of TSMC is extremely public. To me, this is Apple saying "hey CNBC/investors, we've settled on using Gemini to get next-gen Siri happening so you all can feel safe that we aren't rudderless on next-gen Siri."

a_paddy 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Apple won't take the risk of being blamed for AI answers being incorrect. They will attribute Google/Gemini so users know how to be mad at if it doesn't work as expected.

freakynit an hour ago | parent | next [-]

This is a double-edged sword. Apple would love any failure to be blamed on Google, but not the branding to go with it.

Apple's brand is so dominant that even if they say Siri is "powered by Google", most users will still perceive it as an Apple service. The only way that changes is if Apple consistently and prominently surfaces the Google name on Siri — which seems unlikely (but who knows when the stakes are so high).

qnpnpmqppnp 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Apple is already taking the risk of being blamed for their own AI right now, though (an AI that is much more prone to incredibly dumb errors than Gemini), so I don't find it that obvious that they wouldn't just continue taking the blame for Siri as they already do, except with an actually smarter Siri.

HarHarVeryFunny 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If I were Goodle, I'd offer Apple a very significant discount to have visible branding of "powered by Gemini".

gallerdude 10 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm sure Apple is more than happy to pay the premium for cleanness.

HarHarVeryFunny 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Maybe they'd prefer it for aesthetics, but OTOH in iOS 18.2+ they support off-device ChatGPT and apparently refer to it as "ChatGPT" both in settings and when prompting the user to ask if they want to use it.

If they do refer to it as "Gemini" then this is a huge win for Google, and huge loss for OpenAI, since it really seems that the "ChatGPT" brand is the only real "moat" that OpenAI have, although recently there has been about a 20% shift in traffic from ChatGPT to Gemini, so the moat already seems to be running dry.

Angostura 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't see why - iOS originally shipped with Google Maps as standard, for example. Macs shipped with Internet Explorer as standard before Safari existed

johnthuss 13 hours ago | parent [-]

The Google Maps situation is a great example of why this will be hard. When Apple switched to their own maps it was a huge failure resulting in a rare public apology from the company. In order to switch you have to be able to do absolutely everything that the previous solution offered without loss of quality. Given Google's competence in AI development that will be a high bar to meet.

thinkindie 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

several years after that they still have their own Maps though, they didn't go back to Google Maps.

robertlagrant 7 hours ago | parent [-]

That's the point of what the person you replied to is saying.

thinkindie 7 hours ago | parent [-]

it's hard but not impossible. Unless Apple didn't learn the Google Maps/Maps lesson.

eli 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, yeah, Apple's Maps.app wasn't good enough when it launched (it's solid now though). That feels like a separate thing from white labeling and lock-in. Obviously they would have to switch to something of similar or better quality or users will be upset.

But it's a whole lot easier to switch from Gemini to Claude or Gemini to a hypothetical good proprietary LLM if it's white label instead of "iOS with Gemini"

heraldgeezer 11 hours ago | parent [-]

>it's solid now though

Depends on where you are. In my experience here in Sweden Google Maps is still better, Apple maps sent us for a loop in Stockholm (literally {{{(>_<)}}} )

anonzzzies 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Yep, in my rural area Apple maps is not usable, Google maps works fine. Waze, also Google, is even better.

MBCook 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They switched despite Apple Maps having poor data for a reason:

Google wanted to shove ads in it. Apple refused and to switch.

Their hand was forced by that refusal.

LexGray 12 hours ago | parent [-]

I thought it was Google refusing to provide turn by turn directions?

Apple announced last year they are putting their own ads in Maps so if that was the real problem the corporate leadership has done a complete 180 on user experience.

MBCook 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think Google was withholding them unless Apple was willing to put the ads in.

Apple is a very VERY different company than they were back then.

Back then they didn’t have all sorts of services that they advertised to you constantly. They didn’t have search ads in the App Store. They weren’t trying to squeeze every penny out of every customer all the time no matter how annoying.

lern_too_spel 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Google Search also has ads in it, but that didn't stop Apple from keeping it as the default, and now Apple is adding ads to Apple Maps. GP is correct. Google withheld turn by turn navigation from the iOS app. There are many deficiencies in the iOS platform, but this one was glaringly visible, forcing Apple's hand.

array_key_first 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Apple does ads but they have a very particular taste with it. Not necessarily a better taste, but they do it in their own apple way. They're very much control freaks.

burnte 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem with the analogy is that users were asked to change their habits. Apple switching Siri models behind the scenes is much less problematic.

wat10000 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It wouldn't have gone any better if the original mapping solution had been a white-labeled "Apple Maps" secretly powered by Google Map.

drcongo 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I was in agreement with the parent before I read this, and now I'm in agreement with you. It is a great example, I know so many people who never switched back to Apple Maps because it was so poor initially. Personally I find it a considerably better experience than Google Maps these days, but those lost users still aren't coming back.

mathieuh 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Mobile digital mapping was already a useful thing though. Even though Apple Maps was initially a failure I still came back to it every so often to see how it was progressing and eventually it ended up pretty good.

Maybe I'm weird but mobile assistants have never been useful for me. I tried Siri a couple of times and it didn't work. I haven't tried it since because even if it worked perfectly I'm not sure I'd have any use for it.

I see it more like the Vision Pro. Doesn't matter how good the product ends up being, I just don't think it's something most people are going to have a use for.

As far as I'm concerned no one has proved the utility of these mobile assistants yet.

9rx 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In this case, though, Siri has already successfully scared off anyone who isn't willing to reevaluate products.

charliebwrites 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why so?

Apple explicitly acknowledged that they were using OpenAI’s GPT models before this, and now they’re quite easily switching to Google’s Gemini

johnthuss 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The ChatGPT integration was heavily gated by Apple and required explicit opt-in. That won't be the case with the Gemini integration. Apple wants this to just work. The privacy concerns will be mitigated because Apple will be hosting this model themselves in their Private Cloud Compute. This will be a much more tightly integrated solution than ChatGPT was.

Angostura 13 hours ago | parent [-]

And you don't think they will include an abstraction layer?

layer8 11 hours ago | parent [-]

An abstraction layer doesn’t prevent Google from seeing the data. Last year the story was that Apple would be running a Google model on their (Apple’s) own server hardware.

WorldMaker 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This story says the custom model will run on-device and in Apple's Private Cloud Compute. The implication is that Google will not see the data. The "promise" of Private Cloud Compute is that Apple wants it to be trusted like "on-device".

Presumably cutting Google out of getting the data from this is part of why this story first was mentioned last year but is only now sounds close to happening. I think it's the same story/project.

Angostura 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, and that's still the story, as far as I can tell. So an abstraction layer would let them swap out the underlying model

hu3 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I guess the question is, when are they going to use their own model?

Surely research money is not the problem. Can't be lack of competence either, I think.

nothercastle 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think they want it to work well with web search. That’s why Google is the obvious choice. Also their ai offering is low risk of getting eliminated where as open ai could fail at any time

LexGray 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is just too much money being burned in AI for Apple to keep researchers. Also models have no respect for original art which leads to a branding issue of being a platform for artists.

Apple is competent at timing when to step into a market and I would guess they are waiting for AI to evolve beyond being considered untrustworthy slop.

IOT_Apprentice 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It appears to be lack of competence given they lied about the initial features of Apple Intelligence.

First, they touted features that no one actually built and then fired their AI figurehead “leader” who had no coherent execution plan—also, there appears to have been territorial squabbling going on, about who would build what.

How on earth did Apple Senior Management allow this to unravel? Too much focus on Services, yet ignoring their absolute failures with Siri and the bullshit that was Apple Intelligence, when AI spending is in the trillions?

dewey 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don't think that's an especially big deal, they've always included third party data in Siri or the OS which is usually credited (Example: Maps with Foursquare or TomTom, Flight information from FlightAware, Weather data and many more).

insin 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They can also put "Google" in the forever-necessary disclaimer

Google AI can make mistakes

dylan604 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is this another one of those AI deals where no real money changes hands? In this case, doesn't this just offset the fee Google pays Apple for having their search as the default on Apple devices?

asadotzler 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'll wager the accounting for the two contracts is separate. There may be stipulations that connect the two, but the payment from Google to Apple of $20B+/yr is a long-established contract (set of contracts, actually0 that Apple would not jeopardize for the relatively small Google to Apple $1B/yr contract, one still unproven and which may not stand the test of time.

So, yes, practically speaking, the Apple to Google payment offsets a tiny fraction of the Google to Apple payment, but real money will change hands for each and very likely separately.

aoeusnth1 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

So changing cash flows (fee money) isn't real enough now?