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thesmtsolver2 4 hours ago

BYD ranks at the bottom for human rights. But interestingly, BYD’s proponents seem to brush it away.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-...

culi 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> BYD's 2023 Corporate Social Responsibility Report initially lacked a human rights policy. However, the company later published a 2024 Human Rights Policy Statement.[67] This new policy also shows enhanced commitment to supply chain due diligence, including recognition of OECD Guidelines. Despite these improvements, the policy lacks details on battery material sourcing.

> BYD’s policies do not address gender-responsive due diligence. BYD states that it engages with stakeholders. However, it does not provide policies for engaging with communities affected by the battery supply chain or incorporating their views into decision-making processes. There is no reference to Indigenous Peoples or their rights in BYD’s reports.[68]

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/ACT30/8544/2024/en/

I don't at all disagree with the importance of these topics and I'm glad to see them addressed but this entire metric seems to be based on specific language/terminology in a company's public commitments. And this terminology seems to be biased towards a western audience. For example, the United States (a settler-colonial nation) is ofc going to have more discourse around the rights of indigenous people. Whereas the term "indigenous" isn't used very much at all in China.

I also feel like you've buried the lead here. Yes BYD ranks the lowest of the 13 brands they looked at but not by much and they also explicitly state that ALL of the brands they looked at failed to meet their minimum baselines. The report is more of a critique of the industry as a whole than any individual actor

g947o 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can pretty much replace BYD with any Chinese company (and to some extent, almost any company in the world) and the sentence would still make sense.

So I have mostly lost interest in the argument. Not that it is an incorrect or irrelevant argument, but none of that has really mattered.

thesmtsolver2 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is the standard “nothing can be done and everyone does it” argument when shown that BYD is literally at the bottom of the pile.

skinnymuch 2 hours ago | parent [-]

A western org says out-group companies are at the bottom of the list of a report that is self reports and “transparency” aka trusting the companies words. Obviously their in-group companies will rank higher. That’s the entire purpose of the report.

bawolff 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Presumably you can't make the statement that almost all companies are below average on human rights. Mathematically at least half have to be above average.

tshaddox 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Presumably most people also wouldn’t be particularly concerned with what the average is. If all companies have human rights records ranging from bad to terrible, surely it’s no compliment to be above average.

bawolff an hour ago | parent [-]

I disagree. I find the notion that everyone is a little evil therefore it is ok to be any level of evil, to be morally repungent.

ginko 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That’d be the median, not the average.

AceJohnny2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Torturers Inc, that operates in $country_i_hate & tortures over 10,000 people each day, is an outlier adn should not have been counted

bawolff an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fair point, although i would generally assume that ethical behaviour of companies is normally distributed.

lotsofpulp an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Median/mean/mode/geometric are all types of averages.

yunnpp 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Then, mathematically, the original statement makes no sense.

gloryjulio 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This. Most of the Chinese products met the definition of dumping. They over produce with suppressed wages, currency exchange rate, and government subsidies. The current generations of Chinese workers do not benefit from this. To clarify, they have top products, some are well paid. But the general trend is dumping.

I am curious when will other countries would actually start of defend their industries properly.

concinds 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Industry talking points, meant to convince you to subsidize them.

Retric 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You don’t need to subsidize domestic companies to adjust for currency exchange rate manipulation.

The government could for example impose a tariff that covers half the difference thus maintaining an unfair advantage for Chinese companies. Thus profiting from the manipulation without placing excessive burden on domestic companies.

rapidfl an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Agree subsidies does not seem like the correct incentive structure. But that's what the other guy is doing so I guess that's what we have to do.

In general, can the EV industry survive without government subsidies? Maybe now it can in the US.

Also not convinced EVs (as they are currently) are vastly superior to ICE cars. Not accounting for the potential for ICE cars to vastly improve if there wasn't so much vested interest. So the whole EV industry seems a bit unsustainable...

Retric 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

For almost everyone with home charging, EV’s are a substantial win even without subsidies. There’s so many little wins like being able to turn the car on to warm up in a garage without filling it with exhaust. That’s a long way from every driver, but the EV industry doesn’t need to make up every car sale to survive just fine.

ICE cars can’t get vastly better they are simply too close to fundamental limits. It’s quickly becoming a competition between hybrids and EV’s.

eggnet 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I assume you're joking, but this is just sales tax.

Retric an hour ago | parent [-]

Tariffs are quite different than a sales tax because they can select winners and losers in a market. Cane sugar vs sugar beets etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet

However, they don’t have to be high enough to change who wins, even small ones adjust how much foreign subsidies manipulate the market. Foreign governments should consider how much US corn syrup impacts domestic consumption for example as a separate issue from how it impacts domestic sugar production.

China’s currency manipulation has second order effects that benefits Americans. We don’t necessarily want China to stop, instead the goal should be to minimize the harm while extracting maximum benefits. A small tariff that caused them to double down on currency manipulation would be a massive win.

StopDisinfo910 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> They over produce with suppressed wages, currency exchange rate, and government subsidies

I mean, so does Germany.

Technically, the USA only has the massive subsidies part since the IRA came to be but they also have tariffs so, not doing too bad distortion-wise.

At this point in time, pretty much everyone is already defending their industries. China is just playing its cards better than the others and with a head start when it comes to EV.

ericmay 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Tariffs aren’t the same thing as suppressing wages, overproduction, government subsidies, and managed currency to prevent deflation.

In the case of the US with respect to China they are mostly a retaliation to the above anti-competitive practices.

But I hear you on who is playing their cards better. I don’t think China is playing theirs very well. They pissed off both the US and EU, and even Mexico is enacting tariffs on Chinese products. American and European countries are taking action to stop Chinese anti-competitive practices. Nice factories you have there, too bad there’s nobody to sell those products to.

I also don’t know what you mean when you say for example the US and Germany are suppressing wages. I’m interested in what you mean by that specifically.

jgalt212 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> and to some extent, almost any company in the world

This is weak sauce.

skinnymuch 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Claiming western companies are better because a western org said so based on self reports and western reporting is also weak sauce. “We investigated ourselves and found we are fine and our out-group isn’t”

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> BYD’s proponents seem to brush it away

At the end of the day, you aren’t going to convince consumers in Southeast Asia, South America or Africa to buy more-expensive American or European cars on account of human rights. Not while they’re middle-income economies.

monerozcash 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>But interestingly, BYD’s proponents seem to brush it away.

This feels like a rather lazy strawman to debate against. Not sure there's anything interesting about it.

blell 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are BYD proponents allowed to say that this doesn’t matter much to them, or are they expected to measure themselves by your political views because they are the only correct ones?

newsclues 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Shouldn’t human rights factor into consumers choices?

blell 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don’t think anything in particular “should” factor into everybody’s choices. Some are sensitive to price, some are sensitive to design, others to autonomy, others to speed, and then, yes, some will buy depending on human rights records.

rapidfl 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Like many sibling comments, many companies are on a range that is on the bad side. There is a part of EV supply chain that is particularly bad and that is for all companies.

But what about the environmental costs that are being externalized? EV car production is likely worse or equal to ICE car production at each step. And the only arg seems to be that some day all EVs will be powered by solar/clean energy somehow.

skinnymuch 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That report is basically made up. Why would non western companies be “transparent” with western organizations? A lot of it is self reports. This is like looking at the freedom indexes and concluding that in the US women have the freedom to walk safely at night in cities because it ranks high on western freedom orgs but not in actually safe places like China.

simianparrot 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"But Tesla bad so BYD is a necessary evil" seems to be a common sentiment.

liotier 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The European Union can't fight everyone at once - we need partners, hence trying to mend fences with MERCOSUR, toning down the struggle for human rights in China and tolerating India's authoritarian drift. For now the utmost priorities are defeating Russia and achieving actual strategic autonomy by decoupling from the traitorous USA. So yes, better BYD than Tesla.

nutjob2 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why focus on BYD, China as a whole is effectively a totalitarian state that locks up millions because of their ethnicity and disappears or executes people who disagree with the government. They are also territoriality aggressive and routinely use trade as a weapon to pushing states that stand up to it.

Buying anything from China is supporting that regime.

CapitalistCartr 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I could make a good case for the United States fitting that description, especially the bits about trade and agression.

echelon 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The US is complex antihero type.

While it definitely attacks threats and has perpetrated plenty of unjust deeds, it also is responsible for the food security of much of the world. It has lifted more people out of poverty than any other party. It has brought poor nations to the point of industrialization.

The US has been a far greater force for good in the world than evil.

The leadership changes frequently, so it's hard to point to any single responsible party. It's democratic, so its institutions are subject to scrutiny. The free press sheds light on corruption and rule breaking.

Despite changing immigration narratives, the US has been an early and strong proponent of multiculturalism and welcoming people.

With declining US hegemony, the world is likely to become a much more dangerous place. We'll see more economic strife, more war, higher costs, greater tensions.

newyankee 3 hours ago | parent [-]

but at least we will have alternative energy sources in Solar, wind, batteries and probably a Nuclear renaissance which might reduce the incentives on fight for Oil & Gas even if the fights move to other resources

echelon 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> fights move to other resources

Food (eg. protein, fisheries, etc.), water (eg. dams), materials (eg. rare earths), land, strategic geography, trade, labor, security, political upheaval, power struggles, sectarian violence, terrorism, religion, historical claims, climate, etc. etc. etc.

Under a single global order, disagreements were normally put aside to participate in global trade. As we begin to move to distributed trading blocs and factions, many of these disagreements will boil over. Parties won't step up to stop them.

nutjob2 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The inevitable whataboutism.

Firstly it's not relevant to a discussion about China's behavior.

Yes the US under Trump has become increasingly authoritarian, but besides being not as oppressive as China, the US remains a democracy and there is a chance to vote bad people out of the White House and more importantly reverse the direction of the country.

threethirtytwo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Your description of China as authoritarian and repressive is largely accurate, but the conclusion you draw from it is far too binary and ignores major parts of reality on both sides.

China’s system has produced outcomes the US cannot come close to matching. In a few decades it lifted hundreds of millions of people out of extreme poverty. It built nationwide high speed rail, dense urban transit, modern housing, and large scale infrastructure at a speed the US has not achieved since the mid 20th century. Many Chinese cities are cleaner, more connected, and more functional than American ones. Long term planning, industrial policy, and state coordination have delivered tangible improvements in daily life for a huge share of the population. Those are not propaganda achievements. They are measurable.

China’s downsides are also real. Political dissent is not protected. Surveillance is pervasive. Ethnic repression, especially in Xinjiang, is severe. There is no internal mechanism to safely challenge the regime when it abuses power. Prosperity is conditional on alignment. When the state decides someone or some group is a problem, there is no lawful way to resist.

Now look honestly at the US. The US has political freedoms China does not. Speech, courts, elections, civil society, and the ability to oppose the state without being erased are real advantages. That matters enormously. But the US also has a long record of extreme violence and moral failure. It slaughtered millions abroad in wars like Vietnam and Iraq, often based on lies. It overthrew governments, backed death squads, enforced sanctions that killed civilians, and built a mass incarceration system that destroyed entire communities. At home, it tolerates deep inequality, decaying infrastructure, and political paralysis. It cannot build basic transit or housing at scale, and millions live worse materially than citizens of far poorer countries.

So if the standard is “this regime has blood on its hands,” then the US fails that test as well. If the standard is “this regime produces good outcomes for its people,” China clearly succeeds in ways the US does not. If the standard is “this regime allows its citizens to challenge power and correct abuse,” the US is better.

That is the real comparison. Different systems optimize for different things and fail in different ways. One is not a moral fairy tale and the other is not a cartoon villain.

That’s why “buying anything from China is supporting evil” is not a serious ethical framework. Global trade does not map cleanly onto endorsement, and the same logic would implicate participation in much of the modern world, including the US led order that produced enormous suffering of its own. A coherent position is to argue for strategic decoupling or limits on state coupled firms. A black and white call for regime destruction or moral purity ignores both China’s real achievements and the US’s very real crimes.

Once you include the full ledger, the issue is not good versus evil. It’s tradeoffs between flawed systems, not a simple moral referendum.

threethirtytwo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It’s also worth noting that these are largely macroscopic, state level critiques. For most people living ordinary lives in China, many of these issues are not directly salient day to day, just as most Americans do not experience US foreign policy atrocities, coups, or wars as part of their daily existence. People judge their country primarily by stability, opportunity, safety, and whether life is improving, not by a moral audit of state behavior. Viewing China solely through its worst actions is no more complete than viewing the US solely through Vietnam, Iraq, or mass incarceration. Both perspectives flatten lived reality into ideology, and both miss why citizens of each country can hold nuanced, even positive, views of systems that are clearly flawed.

You really owe it to yourself to visit (or if possible live in) China for a while to see this other perspective.

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
kakacik 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Change BYD with Tesla, China with US and say for an European or anybody all above is still perfectly true.

lm28469 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You missed the part where we chose to move all of our industries to China to save money, exploitation was always part of the plan, it's just that people who came up with that genius plan didn't account for the fact that China would develop and want a part of the cake too