| ▲ | MBCook 5 hours ago |
| I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I don’t want to be forced to use Chrome because it’s the only browser that works on most sites. It’s already bad enough with some sites. But Apple‘s stubbornness and completely different reasons are the only things accidentally holding back the tide. |
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| ▲ | concinds 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I can't wait until regulators do their job and take away Apple's dictatorial control, in all areas, and all these doom-and-gloom predictions on all these tangential issues end up proving ludicrous. What kind of control would Chrome have over the web? Adding APIs doesn't force the billions of websites to adopt them. So what if a website adds WebBluetooth? You don't want the web to have that anyway, and if you keep using Safari, you still won't have it. Happy you! If scrappy Firefox on open platforms could save the web from 95% IE, then why are we all dependent on Apple, alone, to save us from ~60% Chrome? It's learned helplessness and Stockholm syndrome. I wonder how our species survived before the trillion-dollar company started taking such good care of us! |
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| ▲ | icehawk 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Not even a day ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46454115: > I want my browser to protect me from ALL those things. Ublock origin did precisely that, then Google went in to kill ublock origin. Ublock lite is nowhere near as good. > > I consider this betrayal - naturally by Google, but also by random web designers such as on the python homepage who consider it morally just to pester visitors when they do not want to be pestered. I don't accept ads; I don't accept pop-ups or slide-in effects (in 99.999% of the cases; notifications for some things can be ok, but this does not extend in my book to donation Robin Hood waylanders)." | | |
| ▲ | concinds 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Why did you link me to a random comment? edit: I see now. Firefox still has uBlock Origin. You missed the point. If Chrome wants to make itself less attractive, you should celebrate. | | |
| ▲ | s3p 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | If you read it, it shows the impact Google has on browser quality for end users. |
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| ▲ | bigfudge 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That was almost 20 years ago though. Things are really different now and it's hard to imagine Firefox saving anything these days. Sadly, the only entities powerful enough to control FANGs are FANGs (although fingers crossed the EU holds it's nerve and EU nations belatedly act on the realisation that being beholden to US tech giants is a massive strategic blunder, akin to relying so heavily on US military satellite data for Ukraine). | | |
| ▲ | chongli an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't have much faith in Firefox saving us, given its organizational turnover and cultural issues. I have much more faith in a new entrant, like Ladybird. I should be able to use Ladybird on iOS. Why not? | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem with "new entrant" is that only revolutionary features convince users to switch en mass. Tabs/stability (Firefox vs IE). V8 (Chrome vs Firefox). Anything else is a battle of attrition, where the deepest pocketed competitor in terms of advertising spend wins. Or Google, because it flood all its own advertising channels. And Chrome still barely only won. | |
| ▲ | pipeline_peak 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ladybird has too much pride. They are more concerned with making something from scratch than something that actually works. Also they’re switching over to Swift which can only be worse for performance. |
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| ▲ | concinds 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, new problems will require new solutions. I'm calling out the logic of paternalism and dependency, an impotent hope pinned on a "benevolent" corporation retaining absolute control forever. |
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| ▲ | geon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > If scrappy Firefox Because ie at the time was dogshit. FF was such an indisputable improvement that people just had to switch. Chrome great. There is nothing a newcomer can do to compete. | |
| ▲ | pipeline_peak 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > What kind of control would Chrome have over the web? Do you remember Manifest Version 3? They did away with ad block extensions. If we all end up using Chromium, there’s no longer a web standard. It’s whatever conforms to Google’s standard because all sites will have to support Chromium. That means there will be an undocumented spec. It’s much too difficult for browser engine developers to compete with them, they don’t have nearly the resources. Do you think the web should be an open standard? How can company catch up if Google is the one pushing the envelope? |
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| ▲ | kace91 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don’t see that as a threat honestly. safari being the default app pretty much guarantees its place unless google comes up with a killer feature for iOS chrome. And they are unlikely to make that push considering apple demands the app to be distributed only in Japan. Besides, the mobile web is becoming more and more of a niche platform, since the web is becoming centralised as time passes and most main sites redirect to their own apps. And that’s without considering direct web search being replaced by AI search,which google seems convinced is the way forward. |
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| ▲ | MBCook 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It was the default on the Mac and it’s nowhere near the most popular there. Google pushes Chrome HARD. | | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yep. I've even been seeing Chrome TV ads lately (on Amazon Prime Video). They're marketing it pretty hard despite being dominant. Also, it's wise to not underestimate the power of developers ceasing to test against non-Blink browsers and taking a page from their IE-era past selves with "Best Viewed in Chrome" and "Browser outdated! Download Chrome" badges. There are few user motivators stronger than things not working. | |
| ▲ | ribosometronome 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Similarly, Edge is the default on Windows. Chrome has 75% of the market share. | |
| ▲ | ndiddy 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah it's fun how Google displays a full-page ad for Chrome every few times I do a Google search on iOS Safari that I have to dismiss before seeing the results. | |
| ▲ | benoau 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah but the solution to that is to be good at breaking monopolies, not allowing one to stop another. | | |
| ▲ | MBCook a few seconds ago | parent | next [-] | | That’s what should have happened long ago. As far as I can see there are only two possibilities on any kind of near term: Apple can lock Google and everyone else out, or Google can take over the web fully. Those appear to be our only choices right now. I don’t like either one. But I know which one I don’t like more. | |
| ▲ | kelthuzad 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Make no mistake, that is one of the top 5 arguments that "Leave the trillion dollar company alone" types love throwing in every discussion regarding this topic. It's not an accidental or innocent kind of argument, it will pop up under pretty much every article that discusses Apple and Anti-Trust. It's an underhanded way of defending Apple's anti-competitive business practices akin to "let Apple be anti-competitive or [insert doomsday scenario here]". Instead of advocating for application of proper anti-trust measures in order to restore a healthy and competitive market, they want to maintain the status quo where the Gatekeepers can do as they please. |
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| ▲ | rplnt 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Always had. From blocking features by UA to ads worth billions of dollars (only little of which they had to actually pay). |
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| ▲ | geraldwhen 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Google has no actual content left to find. It’s AI spam website after AI spam website. And if you find any content, it’s on a website riddled with ads. AI search has none of these issues. Google from 15 years ago was wildly superior to today. | | |
| ▲ | kace91 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >AI search has none of these issues Yet. AI feeds from the content it substitutes. I’m skeptical to the long term feasibility for this reason, how is it going to bring me news when publishing those news is no longer profitable, for example? | |
| ▲ | zx8080 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The last working site in google search is reddit. Adding keyword reddit enables it. But it's disappointing. |
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| ▲ | tom1337 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > safari being the default app but this can change. At least in the EU Apple already prompts a user which browser they want [1]. While at the moment every browser is WebKit under the hood, this will probably change as the EU is also pushing Apple to allow other engines [2] - and with users knowing Chrome from Ads, their work or from a previous Android phone, I can imagine a lot of them selecting Chrome as a default. 1: https://www.heise.de/en/news/Apple-alters-selection-screen-f...
2: https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engi... | |
| ▲ | s3p 38 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Until websites block you from logging in, completing transactions, ordering items until you open it with Chrome |
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| ▲ | lukeschlather 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That ship has already sailed. And Apple is part of the problem. Recently I used Microsoft Edge because Facetime doesn't support Firefox. I couldn't get audio working so switched to Google Meet (which does work in Firefox.) |
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| ▲ | baby 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Safari is so bad, I want a real chrome experience on iOS |
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| ▲ | lokar 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Can you explain how? Poor standards implementation? Performance? UX? | | |
| ▲ | socalgal2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No full screen API so impossible to make lots of types of game experiences. No orientation API so impossible to make games and other experiences that require a certain orientation No WebXR (though Apple will allow it on Vision Pro) No support for ResizeObvserver devicePixelContentBoxSize so impossible to get correct rendering reguardless of user's zoom level. No simple PWA installation. Requires an obscure incantation that only expert users know. That's just a few off the top of my head. Yes, I know all the comments will be about how they don't want those features. That's really irrelevant. Allow them to be turned off. Require permissions. Those features have been shipping on other OSes, Desktop and Mobile for > 5 years and the world hasn't ended. | |
| ▲ | jonhohle 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I hear this a lot, but have used Safari as my since it was launch in 2003.Performance has always been great. UI has always been minimalist, out of the way, and has never upsold me on anything. There are times where it lags and times where it leads standards. There may be a a site every now and then that doesn’t work, but iOS makes that less likely. The only thing I can ever think of is that it’s not <insert favorite browser> or doesn’t have <some favorite esoteric feature>. That said, the only plugins I use are ad blockers, so maybe I’m missing something. | | |
| ▲ | panstromek 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It might look ok from user's point of view, but lot of the problems fall on web developers who have to work around a bunch of these issues to make their pages work in Safari | | |
| ▲ | jonhohle an hour ago | parent [-] | | I was doing web dev or related from 2000 to 2016. IE6 was far worse than anything Safari has done. |
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| ▲ | panstromek 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Late on a lot of standards, quirky in many ways and just a lot of bugs, especially around images and videos. Also positioning issues. They recently broke even position fixed, which broke a ton of web pages on iOS, including apple.com | |
| ▲ | vips7L 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I’d like the extension ecosystem from chrome or Firefox. I miss having real Firefox with real Ublock like on Android. | | |
| ▲ | lokar 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I find the “use reader automatically “ setting helps a lot | |
| ▲ | basisword 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The extension ecosystem that Google has been locking down? You can get the same UBlock extension on Safari and Chrome now (on Safari desktop and iOS). | | |
| ▲ | vips7L 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Good thing I mentioned Firefox. Ublock on safari and iOS is not the same. | | |
| ▲ | basisword 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, it's not the same as the one available still on Firefox. But you said "I’d like the extension ecosystem from chrome or Firefox". I'm pointing out that the Chrome one has been limited and now runs the same UBlock version that Safari runs. | | |
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| ▲ | concinds 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I cannot go through a day without "this tab has been reloaded due to a problem" on Safari iOS and any other browser. It's been happening for years, across phones. It's dogshit. Safari Mac is fine. Even if that's an edge case, it's why having only one engine is pathological. Maybe Safari iOS works fine for you. Not for me. I don't want rationalization on why it's not Apple's fault, or somehow not Safari's fault, or "they'll fix it one day", or "I'm doing it wrong", or all the fanboy-talk that sounds like the enabling relative of an alcoholic. Don't care. I should be able to switch for even the most frivolous reason. Maybe I don't like that it doesn't render every website in pink. It's like having only one type of chocolate in existence. This was never normal. | | |
| ▲ | lokar 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I did not know that was even a thing that can happen. Do you see any pattern to which pages it happens to? |
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| ▲ | Jach 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| People didn't mind when IE was muscling in and adding useful new features. They abandoned Netscape because the features made the web better. It wasn't until they stopped adding features to the browser itself that it really started to become a problem. They would still add features, but too much relied on ActiveX -- which wasn't necessarily evil, there's a grand vision there of component re-use across the OS and varied applications, the same was done with Java Applets and even Shockwave/Flash, but it sucked more and they were all plagued with security problems. Then MS stopped innovating pretty much entirely, and wouldn't even play catch up for a long time, whether with their out-of-browser plugins (oh Silverlight...) or the browser itself. No support for tabs for a long time, or popup blocking (later ad blocking), they had terrible performance... And as various "web standards" advanced to make things nicer for the users and developers, and add capabilities that didn't require an external plugin, they drug their heels on that too. Eventually, the hell that was IE was a combination of hostile user experience, security problems, performance problems, and developer pain in finding workarounds or other support because it was so far behind on everything. It had nothing to do with their power to dictate or experiment with new features. The extent of the hostile user experience that leaked outside the browser itself was the "only works on IE" problem that forced people to use IE for that site, on the whole it was comparable to the "only works with Flash or Java applets" problems and not as bad as the experience of the browser itself. For the most part these days, the two parts of that hell that remain relevant are the hostile user experience and the developer pains parts, and Mobile Safari is the successor to both for over a decade now. No one supports IE11 anymore (let alone older IEs) but they still have to support Mobile Safari. I have fonder memories of dealing with IE11 (and earlier) support/workarounds over Mobile Safari's crap. My view is more power to actual Chromium-based browsers on mobile even if I personally use Firefox on PC and android despite their user experience shortcomings (at least they're not very hostile). The only part of hell I'd be worried about is that of a hostile user experience, which can be worked around by individual users if they are allowed choices. |
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| ▲ | userbinator an hour ago | parent [-] | | It wasn't until they stopped adding features to the browser itself that it really started to become a problem. Only for those misguided "push the web forward" idiots who just wanted the latest shiny shit, aided by Google's plans to control the Internet itself. Plain HTML worked well enough for everything else. Google's weapon is change. They have the resources to outcompete everyone else by churning the "standards" as much as they want. The less people think that constant change is necessary, the better the web will be. |
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| ▲ | hparadiz 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Firefox exists. |
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| ▲ | s3p 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | And its userbase is essentially just HN users unfortunately |
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| ▲ | herpdyderp 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don’t see any reason why Google wouldn’t abandon web features left and right, given how they do that with everything else. |
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| ▲ | gigel82 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm sure if Apple keeps innovating and adopting some of the Web standards they'll outcompete other engines. But let's be realistic, they 100% are blocking other engines and not adopting standards in their own because they want that sweet sweet 30% cut when developers can't publish PWAs and are forced into the "app" model. |
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| ▲ | cosmic_cheese 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | WebKit's progress has been significant in recent years, it's just been more focused on things like improving CSS instead of things like an API that tells the developer how many beers the user has in their fridge. | | |
| ▲ | kelthuzad 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You are unwittingly confirming his point. Apple isn't randomly working on random stuff, they know exactly where their bread is buttered - features that have potential of diminishing that butter get skipped, neglected or implemented half-baked. | | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese an hour ago | parent [-] | | It depends on how you look at it. From my perspective, Google tends to focus on somewhat niche features that will benefit a small slice of web apps. In contrast, the things Apple works on are those that benefit everything from static blog sites to huge commercial web apps. I wish Google were more like Apple in this regard, because the primitives from which everything web is built are still overwhelmingly crude, which results in the half-ton-truck-built-on-a-golf-cart frameworks and apps the web has become famous for. Making the web reasonable to develop for without a dependency tree that looks like a spiral fractal would do way more to make it flourish as a platform than things like access to the GPU and USB devices. |
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| ▲ | kmeisthax 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| While this excuse works today, we should not forget that this policy also meant disinviting Mozilla from the mobile browser party about a decade ago. I'd argue a good chunk of Mozilla's downfall was them chasing the pipe dream of Boot2Gecko, and that was specifically because they couldn't ship Gecko on iOS. The reason why we have a Chrome/Safari hegemony is because Apple insisted on everything being Safari on their device platforms. This combined with Android shipping WebKit for years meant that the only mobile browser engine that mattered was WebKit. Chrome is a different engine now, but it was forked from WebKit, and it used to have a lot of the same quirks. Hell, Microsoft switched to Blink specifically because Electron - their own web app shell - couldn't run on EdgeHTML. The fact that this change practically means Chrome displacing Safari is... not really all that meaningful. They're both forks of the same code. The single-engine dystopia you worry about is already here. I daily-drive Firefox, and the amount of shit Google deliberately breaks on Gecko is obvious. Like, YouTube tabs freeze up every few hours because they get stuck in garbage collection, and I have to manually kill whatever processes are running YouTube before I can watch another video. That sort of thing. |