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Zealotux 9 hours ago

I worked for a massive German company you heard of, this sounds more like the typical German philosophy of strictly following the process -- as absurd as it might be -- and refusing to take initiative for anything that is not explicitly defined as one's responsibility.

As a French, the culture shock was brutal and I never really got around that work attitude. I went through a similar issue back when I used to take a regional train in France, and the crew swiftly adapted by bending rules to accommodate a difficult situation caused by bad weather. I'm not sure this could happen today, but it was a thing 10 years ago, we used to trust the operators back then.

this_user 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So much in German work culture - and also culture in general - is about covering your own arse. If you follow the procedure, even if the outcome is disaster, you are not at fault; you were just implementing the rules, and you cannot be held accountable. It's the fault of whoever came up with the rules, except that is usually not a single person, but some amorphous entity that ran through some decision making process years in the past. So, no one is really at fault or can be held accountable.

It's always some magical higher power preventing you from doing the sensible thing. One favourite excuse is insurance liability. We can't do the sensible thing, because the insurance wouldn't pay if something bad were to happen, even though the odds of something bad happening are virtually nil.

You can also observe this in German politics. "Oh, we absolutely cannot do <common sense thing> because the rules won't allow it." Well, you could change the rules, but then you would have to take some actual responsibility, and we can't have that.

Telemakhos 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That sounds a lot like industrial safety culture: blame the process, not the worker, so we can iterate on the safety built into the process if there is a failure, because doing so lessens the chance of future failures. It’s a great way to build airplanes.

belorn 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The idea in the aerospace industry is that you should not blame the pilot, since pilot error became a all-catch rule no matter if there was design or system errors. The classical example is the button for the landing gear, where pilots continued to accidentally press it and crashing the plane. The engineers added guardrails to the button and the pilot error rate went down.

kqr an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The lever for the landing gear and the lever for the flaps were easily confused. After landing the pilots intended to retract flaps but accidentally retracted the landing gear instead.

At first they assumed their recruitment process accidentally favoured stupid people so they made sure to only recruit smart pilots. But it kept happening. Then they put a little flap on the end of the flap lever and a small wheel on the end of the gear lever and the problem went away.

I simplify. Read the full story. It is cool!

Gibbon1 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

That's my dad who worked at NaSA doing aeronautics stuff said.

Pilots fuck up all the time so blaming them doesn't excuse anything.

And I find myself butting heads with people over that all the time. Coworker (smug satisfied voice) well if the end user fucks up it's not our fault. Me (trying not to sound really annoyed) yeah it's still our problem.

sshine an hour ago | parent [-]

Although it has far from mainstreamed yet, I like how the software industry has the notion of a “UX bug”: if the user failed at anything, the software is at fault, because it wasn’t easy enough to use.

ploxiln 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Theoretically ... in practice, Boeing's most rigorous days in the 80s and 90s were directed by empowered individuals in the manufacturing org, and when it went full "strict process only" in the 2000s and 2010s the quality fell.

fc417fc802 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think that's due to following the process but rather systemic cultural issues. The process doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's a good faith meta process that needs to be followed to incrementally fix issues as they arise.

Bad faith actors and cultural dysfunction can break pretty much anything no matter how well thought out it might be.

macintux 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Bad faith actors and cultural dysfunction can break pretty much anything no matter how well thought out it might be.

U.S. politics today in a nutshell.

actionfromafar 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

McDonnell Douglas merged with Boeing in 1997. Timeline checks out.

_DeadFred_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's also leaving out that system only works (worked) for building airplanes because it happens (happened) to be an industry with a hugely passionate workforce. Switch it to contracted out wage slaves and 'the system' doesn't work. Because the system never 'worked', many passionate people worked via sheer force of will/desire/care/investment into the final product. It was about the people all along.

kqr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Industrial safety must (if it is to be effective) recognise that people are an important part of the process! They're so often forgotten, with disastrous results.

People need to be given timely information, communication channels, and authority to straighten things out when they go awry. That's good for safety!

frenchy 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sort of, but the difference here is that it's really "blame the person who created the process, not the person following it". The people with the authority to alter faulty processes don't want to change it, even if it's clearly bad, because then they become "the person who created the process".

potato3732842 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's also a crap way to run a culture when you scale it.

You need to make the people best positioned to notice something is stupid responsible enough to make them say no fuck you because otherwise every oversight and edge case will be substantially more likely to cause harm because they have less skin in the game.

See also: Cops getting "paid vacations" for bad stuff.

rcxdude 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Except a lot of the safety in any given process comes from the people: if technicians, pilots, and air traffic controllers were not empowered to assess the situation and make decisions then there would a heck of a lot more accidents.

potato3732842 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>If you follow the procedure, even if the outcome is disaster, you are not at fault; you were just implementing the rules, and you cannot be held accountable. It's the fault of whoever came up with the rules, except that is usually not a single person, but some amorphous entity that ran through some decision making process years in the past. So, no one is really at fault or can be held accountable.

Worse. You can't even take responsibility even if you want to, that's usually against the rules too.

stingraycharles 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My favorite part of German work culture is watching an excel sheet together and going over the numbers.

My actual favorite part of German work culture is that meetings always have an agenda, that part is a delight when doing business with German customers.

sunaookami 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Your meetings have an agenda? We just debate something and are stuck on some minor unimportant point that doesn't matter and the meeting goes into overtime and then we schedule 2-3 follow-up meetings where everything we said is now completely irrelevant because our assumptions were incorrect from the start. And then you finally get to work and you can't implement it like it was specified since everyone forgot that you can't really do X so you have to it some other way making everything that was discussed completely moot.

otikik 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sorry, the zoom meeting link has changed so now the meeting will take 4 hours and you must get the agenda by FAX.

(this is what happened to OP)

TheTxT 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

As a German I envy your meetings with Germans

cyberpunk 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

... I had to take out a special insurance when working from home as a freelancer, and share evidence I had done so with my client as -- if someone slipped outside my house because I'd not swept up the snow somehow the company who was paying me would be liable for the insurance claim...

... Yep.

It's for similar reasons why everyone is up at the crack of dawn frantically shovelling snow outside their homes.

Rather spoils the fun of towing the kids to school on a sled when every 5 meters there's a perfectly swept bit you have to drag it across.

Aeolun 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Don’t worry. You can drag them on the street! Safety first and all that.

NoMoreNicksLeft 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Didn't the Germans get in trouble for "just following the rules" back in the mid-20th century?

N19PEDL2 4 hours ago | parent [-]

"I was just following orders." --Any German soldier after 1945

pqtyw 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

It's interesting considering that based on the German military doctrine at the time low ranking officers on the ground had a huge amount of independence while the French ones were stuck doing nothing and waiting for orders to be signed and approved..

Of course maybe that didn't apply to committing atrocities to the same degree.

scotty79 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> you were just implementing the rules, and you cannot be held accountable

That kind of explains why they tried to pull it of at Nuremberg. And why some nazis that weren't sentenced internationally got good jobs in post-war Germany. For Germans they weren't really at fault if they were just following procedures.

jasonvorhe 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's not the main reason though. The reason the denazification was mostly a sham is because a lot of federal positions required good contacts and experience in that field and you couldn't find anyone qualified who wasn't in the party. Based not just on first hand accounts on the family side but also lots of research. A lot of higher ups also were well connected so they got an already short conviction halved to released early in order to get a position in the government.

bratwurst3000 4 hours ago | parent [-]

yes but there are so many cases where they took the worst of the worst and gave them high profile jobs with way way way to much power for high ranking nsdap members.

Rheinhard gehlen and everyone around him is a something that could have been prevented.

And so many high class nazis where in such good positions because they where experts on anticommunism. For the americans and brits it was "safer" to give positions to exnsdap officiers then people from the SPD(socialists)

Gehlen kicked even the only high ranking spd member in secret service out

for god sake they even hired klaus barbie. that guy had entertainment partys where the guests could torture jews homosexualls etc... and he killed most of french opposition. Got hired from the bnd and cia as expert on anticommunism

Germany didnt change much..

fuck we even voted a full member of the nsdap as chancelor. Kurt kiesinger. Yes we had two Nazi chancellors!!

honestly the only reason the denazification was shit was because most people at power at that time where kind of nazis.

edit:// btw the DDR had somehow solved the problem and didnt had as much nazis in high position.

this_user 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"I was just following orders," is a bit of a meme, but it's also true, and even more so in the context of Prussian-style military discipline. Disobeying an order was not an option. You carry it out no matter what, but the responsibility lies with the commander. It gets more murky for the civilians who theoretically could have walked away, but a lot of them had a similar mindset that they were just doing their jobs. And you have to keep in mind that all of the Nazi's racial ideology had been codified into law at the time. So you were once again just implementing the rules, even if those rules were actually harmful.

But what this episode also highlights is the opposite of this in the form of the American approach that is much more flexible and willing to bend the rules if necessary. Rightfully, the Allies could and probably should have brought everyone to justice, but they realised that a lot of the Nazi scientists were extremely valuable assets that they needed to get a leg up on the Soviets. So rather than execute them or put them in prison and throw away the key, they recruited them.

pqtyw 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

That's kind of interesting, though considering that the German army (and presumably Prussian before that?) was know for giving a relatively huge amount of leeway and authority to more junior officers.

Supposedly while the French and British officers were frozen waiting for new orders to be telegraphed when something didn't go according to plan, Germans took the initiative based on what's happening on the ground. US and other countries adopted this doctrine after the war because of how unexpected successful the German army was (despite being outgunned by the French and the soviets who had better tanks and more trucks just couldn't figure out how to use them efficiently)

tempest_ 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They got good jobs because the Allies did not really care about punishing the Nazis.

At the end of WW2 a strong West Germany to oppose the USSR was more important than punishing some middle manager and the quickest way to get the West German state together was to use a lot of the existing bureaucracy.

svara 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As far as DB goes, I'm pretty sure it's mostly an issue of systemic technical and consequently social collapse.

The system runs beyond its limits and consequently the culture collapses because the people inside learn they have no agency.

The German rail network is quite good on paper, with dense and high frequency connections even to relatively remote locations.

But keeping that functional (particularly with constantly rising demand) requires far more investment than it receives.

All the examples of great rail systems (France, Switzerland, Japan) are both simpler in network structure and invest more relative to their passenger load.

tdullien 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The privatization of the train system in Germany was a particularly insane disaster that is only now, 30 years later, being undone/repaired.

If you look at an org chart of the DB these days, the most fascinating part is that DB consists of almost 600 separate corporate entities that are all supposed to invoice each other.

Speaking with insiders, it appears that when the privatization happened, the new corporate structure took what was essentially every mid-size branch of the org chart and created a separate corporate entity, with cross-invoicing for what would normally normal intra-company cooperation. I think the (misguided) goal was to obtain some form of accountability inside a large organisation that had been state-funded and not good at internal accounting.

This fragmentation lead to insane inflexibility, as each of the 600 entities has a separate PnL and is loathe to do anything that doesn’t look good on their books.

Add to this a history of incompetent leadership (Mehdorn, who also ran AirBerlin into the ground, and who was also responsible for the disastrous BER airport build-out), repeated rounds of cost-cutting that prioritized “efficiency” over “resiliency of the network” etc. etc.

DB is currently undergoing a massive corporate restructuring to simplify the 600+ entity structure, but there has been a massive loss of expertise, underinvestment in infrastructure, poor IT (if you see a job ad for a Windows NT4 admin, it’s likely DB), etc. etc. — it’ll take a decade or more to dig the org out of the hole it is in.

wolframhempel 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It was a privatization in name only. The German state held 100% of its shares since the beginning. As such, it might have no longer been subject to the state specific demands of hiring etc. - but instead found itself in an uneasy tension as the only supplier of services to an entity that was something between a customer and a shareholder.

Which brings up an interesting question: How do you structure something with a large piece of infrastructure like a rail network in a way that could benefit from the market forces of competition and innovation?

toast0 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Which brings up an interesting question: How do you structure something with a large piece of infrastructure like a rail network in a way that could benefit from the market forces of competition and innovation?

A rail network is near to a natural monopoly. You can build overlapping rail networks, but it's complex and interconnecting instead of overlapping would usually offer better transportation outcomes and there's a lot less gauge diversity so interconnection is more likely than overlap.

All that to say, you can't really get market forces on the rails. Rails compete with other modes of transit, but roads and oceans and rivers and air aren't driven by market forces either.

Transit by rail does compete in the market for transit across modes. You can have multiple transportation companies running on the same rails, and have some market forces, but capacity constraints make it difficult to have significant competition.

solatic 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> capacity constraints make it difficult to have significant competition

Thirty years ago, you would be correct. In the modern day, you could tie switch signalling to real-time auctions and let private rail's command centers decide how much to bid and thus whether or not they win the slot for putting their cars onto the shared rails. The public rail owner likely needs to set rules allowing passenger rail to pay a premium to secure slots in advance (say, a week) so that a timetable can be guaranteed to passengers during peak rush hour, but off-peak slots can and should be auctioned to naturally handle the difference between off-peak passenger rail and not-time-sensitive, more-cost-averse freight rail.

rawgabbit 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I believe modern economists are studying how ownership should be assigned. The thinking is that contracts and rules handle the majority of situations but emergencies and edge cases require an owner who has authority and whose interests align with the thing they control. And you want a mechanism to reassign ownership when the previous owner is incompetent.

In the case of a national train system, you may want to create a national entity to develop, coordinate, and make the physical trains and support technologies. You would create regional or metro entities to control the train network for their local area including the train stations. They coordinate with each other via negotiated contracts. Any edge cases or emergency falls under the purview of the owning entity. For example, the national entity controls the switch from diesel locomotives to the newest engine. The local authority is responsible for repairing the lines after a natural disaster.

If an entity is egregiously incompetent or failing, the national regulatory authority, with support of the majority of all the different train entities, takes control and reforms it.

1718627440 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It was a privatization in name only.

Not, that "insight" again. Yes it was privatized and yes it is still completely owned by the state. "Privatization" is a term of art (in German) that refers to the corporate structure not the ownership. There are also public corporations in Germany, that are fully owned by random people: e.V. = registered association.

marxisttemp 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can’t. Every attempt at privatizing rail is a failure with worse performance, higher prices, and an inevitable level of special treatment by the state due to the monopolistic utility-like nature of rail infrastructure. Not everything needs to or should be privatized.

airspresso 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This 100%. It should be seen as critical infrastructure because of everything it can enable when run well.

carlmr 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>invest more relative to their passenger load.

For Switzerland does this account for the almost double salaries or only absolute spending?

If you spend 1€ in Switzerland I imagine you get much less work output than for 1€ in Germany.

hylaride 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Raw investment numbers don't necessarily matter, but the productivity of said number. Even if things are more expensive in Switzerland, if they make efficient use of said investment, then it can work out ok (or even better).

I have no idea if this is actually the case, but you have to take that into account or Switzerland would not be as successful as it is. Higher incomes have historically been a symptom of productivity (and while median incomes and productivity have decoupled, especially in the angosphere, it is still usually correlated).

carlmr 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>Higher incomes have historically been a symptom of productivity

If I go to Zürich I get a burger for 30Fr that I can get in Southern Germany for 15€ and in Berlin for 8€. That is with roughly the same quality.

I'd say past productivity leads to network effects and investments in one area that boost local salaries and decouples them quite strongly from current productivity.

My previous company had a per-dollar extremely unproductive location in silicon valley. The people there weren't at fault. You don't magically become more productive because you live next to SF.

wiz21c 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's the crux: we must invest in trains instead of planes.

KronisLV 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I have no idea how planes are the dominant form of transport for relatively short routes (like within the bounds of a large country or to an adjacent one) and how even in Europe the train networks can be a bit of a mess.

Like surely it’s easier to run a railway network when compared to the insane complexity to safely operate an airport and all the work that goes into plane maintenance and pilot training and so on.

peterfirefly 5 hours ago | parent [-]

You need a lot of infrastructure for trains (and a lot of it isn't even used all that much -- it's not like all rails have a train passing by every 5 minutes). You also can't get much use out of your rolling stock because the speeds are fairly slow. You also don't have the same flexibility as planes have regarding routes.

The upshot is that trains are a lot costlier than most believe think and most railway routes require state subsidies (with goods transport usually being an exception), whereas air traffic works so well it can be taxed heavily.

iridium184 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Air traffic is not taxed heavily compared to other modes of transport - on the contrary, it is very heavily subsidized (at least in Europe): Regional airports often strongly depend on state subsidies, airlines are exempt from petroleum taxes, flight tickets are VAT-exempt.

In Germany (and also e.g. Switzerland), long-distance trains are expected to run either at cost (or make a profit). Short-distance trains (regional transport) are usually subsidized.

thayne 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Another factor is that building new rail lines requires eminent domain and acquiring land across multiple jurisdictions etc.

SilverElfin 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why not invest in a vast 24/7 high frequency electric bus network instead of the big infrastructure costs of trains?

airspresso 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sounds neat but what kind of range limits would that impose on each trip? Switching from one means of transportation to another, even if both are buses, increases the total travel time significantly. Not to mention all the hassle involved for passengers.

bratwurst3000 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

trains can be superfast. For example a tgv from strassbourg to marseille is 5-6h. Same with car is for me 8h. Bus is even slower so I would wildy guess 12h. Plan is btw 1 1/2 hour.

cyberax 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why?

Planes are faster, and there is actual competition keeping prices down. There is no competition on railroads, no accountability, no nothing. More importantly, railroads have to be managed centrally to work. And this makes them overwhelmingly complex, resulting in an ever-growing bureaucracy.

Air travel is decentralized, and while individual airports (cue: BER) can get screwed up, it doesn't cascade through the whole system.

We just need to add a bit of carbon pricing to reflect the true price of flights.

pembrook 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No amount of money will overcome the fundamental issue: monopoly.

Airlines are subject to market competition since any competitor around the globe can spot a poorly run route and buy their planes into those slots. If they can execute more efficiently than you, they can afford to lower prices (or increase the level of service) more than you, and thus put you out of business.

Trains do not work this way. No amount of investment can overcome the cushy institutional-rot, laziness, and demotivation that inevitably results from being a monopoly, as most train routes are not subject to competitive forces due to the real world constraints of the infrastructure needed.

tonfa 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

France, Italy, Austria (and probably others) don't have monopoly on long distance train. For instance, you can take a DB/Renfe/Trenitalia train on french high speed line, or in Austria take a Westbahn train instead of ÖBB.

That said personally I much prefer the mostly fixed pricing (and no reservation required) of swiss network than the dynamic one of other countries.

zorked 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

China and Switzerland seem to do fine with trains.

rjzzleep 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The German rails network went downhill when they decided to socialize the losses and privatize the profit. Failure is blamed on the grunt workers, which are absolutely not interested in taking responsibility as a result of this. The fact that there are rotting railways everywhere and the DB waits until it gets so bad for cities to step in and take over part of the cost is a wonderful example of this. The new ICE's speed is actually lower than previous generations.

I have seen this systemic problem in other domains I worked in. The problems are very similar, and at the end of the day I can somewhat relate to the workers attitude of "why should I lean out of the window if I get punished anyway". But in some cases the workers are unfireable and oftentimes it is exactly that attitude that let the management get away with the terrible working conditions (most of the times more psychological than physical abuse) so it feeds into each other.

linmob 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Just an aside, as a railway-nerd:

> The new ICE's speed is actually lower than previous generations.

While not the fastest ICE, the new ICE-L (assuming you refer to it) with a top speed of 230km/h, is not actually slower than what it is supposed to replace on most routes: InterCity trains, topping out at 200km/h.

ICE-L, btw, was planned to be a IC train, but just like before with IC-T/ICE-T (same top speed of 230km/h), and IC X (ICE 4), DB management has a tendency to decide next-to-last minute, that new vehicles must earn money and thus get rebranded ICE, which is both more prestigious and (at least in a fictional world without "Sparpreis") pricey.

TL;DR: This would be outrageous if ICE-L was to replace ICE 3 (neo; 320km/h +) services - but it is not.

darubedarob 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Add to that the transport buisness beeing marginal to the company who is mainly a immo speculation company trying to sell the strips of inner city land they hold.

biztos 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Immo being real estate (Immobilien), for the curious.

mc32 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Could be. It used to be that to get phone service in Germany could take up to a month after putting in the order, that’s when it was state controlled. After the reforms installations were quicker.

So to me, there doesn’t seem to be a panacea except to hold the services accountable in some way.

Spooky23 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's a different situation / scenario and addressed a different problem.

The government is the most efficient and effective at big capital spending and with what I would call static operations. Competitive private entities are the best at delivering value on the front-end.

Monopolist/cartel private entites combine the rapacious nature of rent seeking with the lazy inefficiency of bureaucracy to great a giant ball of failure. Effective privatization requires either creating a framework for a robust competitive landscape OR tight, effective regulatory control. There's no universal correct answer.

If competition is in place and companies can win or lose, they will move mountains to yield marginal gain. If you let them get fat & lazy, you will need to move a mountain to do anthing -- even make more money!

fc417fc802 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> If competition is in place and companies can win or lose, they will move mountains to yield marginal gain.

... in the short term, happily screwing over society at large and possibly even themselves in the medium to long term. Perverse incentives are everywhere.

hulitu 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> After the reforms installations were quicker.

And everybody has the same "market" price.

sam_lowry_ 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

PurpleRamen 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The general reason is, the rule exists for a reason, and the "low worker" does not understand the bigger picture, so you should follow it blindly before doing something harmful you can't foresee. It's not always working well, but to be fair, also not always bad. Knowing how much you can stretch the rules can be an art which takes a long time to acquire.

hylaride 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Some cultures are more sticklers for creating and following rules and bureaucracy than others, though.

A good example: Here in North America I'll jaywalk without a thought if there's no traffic. In Germany, you'll get grandmothers calling you a child-killer for setting a bad example if you did the same.

Another example: Both France and Germany spend roughly the same amount (in raw Euros) on their militaries. France (which ALSO spends and develops a lot of their own kit) has a functional and effective military, including the only non-American nuclear aircraft carriers, and a bunch of nuclear attack and ballistic submarines and it's own nuclear deterrent. Germany is barely able to maintain their much smaller infrastructure because of its ineffective bureaucracy (there was a scandal a few years ago where over 80% of their euro fighters were combat ineffective due to lack of maintenance).

CalRobert 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Of course, the very idea of jaywalking was created to remove the obligation to not kill people from drivers and shift it to the very people being killed, but this doesn’t seem to bother the meddling grandmothers.

potato3732842 5 hours ago | parent [-]

These are generally the same boot licking demographics who'll sit and wait out a 2min light cycle at 1:45am rather than treating it like a 4-way stop. Putting their money where their mouth is puts them head and shoulders above the types that tend to dominate the discussion on such issues.

systemtest 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I was in Germany once at a red light for a pedestrian crossing. After the last pedestrian had fully crossed the street and the pedestrian light turned red I drove off. I did not wait for my own light to turn green which is typical in my country.

The person behind me flashed their lights. Cultural difference I guess. Why wait when there is nothing to wait for.

an hour ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
pqtyw 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Risk/cost ratio? A pedestrian acting irresponsibly can of course do a lot of damage, but the likelihood of killing someone is much lower than if a vehicle is breaking the rules.

wat10000 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That’s not boot licking, that’s “I don’t want to get a ticket, and just because I don’t see a cop doesn’t mean there isn’t one.”

potato3732842 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Fine then. They drive the speed limit in the left lane or whatever. Point is that the people who advocate for the rules in obscenely trivial situations when deviating them them is in fine taste tend to be drawn from the pool of "robotic rule follower with no extra thought given" type people. Which has the side effect of making them consistent with what they preach.

spankibalt 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> "In Germany, you'll get grandmothers calling you a child-killer for setting a bad example if you did the same."

Yeah, some Bavarian villagers can be hylariously weird. I, personally, have jaywalked all my life growing up in East and West Germany, and I only got "the lecture" twice: once in deeply pious Bavaria, and once in... Spain. Both involved the rolemodel-shaming routine as kids were to be seen, but only one came with a small fine attached.

> "Here in North America I'll jaywalk without a thought if there's no traffic."

Most likely not a POC and not from NY or Washington D.C., I see (I'm reporting for a friend). Ah, anecdotes. The spice of life!

tetha 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> A good example: Here in North America I'll jaywalk without a thought if there's no traffic. In Germany, you'll get grandmothers calling you a child-killer for setting a bad example if you did the same.

This varies wildly in Germany. In Hamburg, at 7 - 9 in the morning near schools or kindergartens with kids around, many people are following good traffic behavior. At 9 on a university campus, or at 9 at night no one really cares.

1718627440 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Note that what is eschewed and illegal is crossing at a traffic light when it is red. Just walking 50m away and crossing there is fine.

fabian2k 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Nobody cares if you jaywalk as long as no children are around. If there are children around, most people will avoid crossing a red light even if they otherwise would cross. But that's not a rule-following thing, it's a "don't set a bad example to children" thing. It's easier to teach children the rules about how to behave in traffic if you have fewer adults obviously violating them.

smithkl42 5 hours ago | parent [-]

That would make sense, except that one of the universal rules of childhood is, "Adults get to do things you don't get to do, usually for damn good reasons, so get used to it." Every child knows this in their bones, even when they don't like it.

bratwurst3000 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Kids are stupid and follow what adults do. If I judge that I have the time to cross the street at red light without getting hit by the incoming car doesnt mean that the kid standing next to me is even seeing the car and crossing right after me.....

Showing kids good example is good. What you mean is showing them bounderies. Getting shit drunk in front of kids and telling them how much fun it is but they cant do it is behaving like a child

2 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
chironjit 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, I think people who have not experienced the system have no idea how absurd the German process mindset is. If it's not part of the process, it's impossible - damned what the reality on the ground is

nicbou 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Although Germans are famously methodical, my experience with German bureaucracy was that it's quite flexible. They will break you, and when you finally give up and seem like you're about to cry, they will roll their eyes, and oblige you, stressing how exceptional and magnanimous they are for letting you get what you want. In reality, they were rooting for you the whole time, but did not want their flexibility to be taken for granted.

I document German bureaucracy for a living. I cannot stress enough how "vibes-based" the entire thing is. Half the job is convincing bureaucrats that you're either overprepared or litigious to be worth the trouble.

mothballed 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The best strategy I've found with such bureaucrats is to bike shed them with an obvious but easy problem that you fix with much adieu so they can feel like they've found you out and feel like they've done something. Meanwhile they will ignore all the subtler things that might be much harder for you to deal with.

type0 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For anyone who likes trains I can recommend The Train (1964), it's a fun little war movie with Burt Lancaster about French resistance in 1944

coderatlarge 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

i love that meme which shows three identical paper clips in a row but one is upside down relative to the others which is a minute difference. the caption reads “chaos German style”

spankibalt 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> "[...] this sounds more like the typical German philosophy of strictly following the process -- as absurd as it might be -- and refusing to take initiative for anything that is not explicitly defined as one's responsibility."

Neither absurdity nor "German philosophy", but just stock-standard safety and security culture in action. Or more specifically in this case: generelle and objektspezifische Dienstanweisungen (general and location-specific administrative instructions or regulations) [1]. You don't follow them, it's you who's on the hook. :)

And when was the last time anyone here visited a railway control centre in a metropolitan area? Yeah.

1. [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dienstanweisung]

potato3732842 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Reminds me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3EBs7sCOzo

What really ought to bother people more than it does is that within just about any white western country/culture you can run the same comparison with "decently well off" being the german side and "everyone else" being the english side.

nmstoker 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Reminds me of being en route with Lufthansa to Germany, needing an emergency landing in Turin, being shepherded onto a new working plane by Italians, then continuing to Germany where the whole plane load arrived without tickets from Turin...

The gate people tried to tell us it was impossible to be there without tickets, as if we were somehow collectively hiding them and a bit of persuasion would convince us to find the non-existent tickets! Not one person found they had a ticket, despite this allegedly being impossible.

Tommix11 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The German philosophy is also very much prevalent in Sweden.

HolyLampshade 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I worked in the Swedish office of a multinational for a couple of years and the one experience I had where Swedes were selling a complex multi-million euro project to Germans was one of the most bureaucratically filled initiatives I’ve ever experienced in my life. Not sure if the project ever really took off, but I’m thankful I was able to avoid it beyond the initial week of discussions.

reddalo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A German saying "I was just following orders" sounds scary if you think of certain olden times.

p00dles 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

<the typical German philosophy of strictly following the process -- as absurd as it might be -- and refusing to take initiative for anything that is not explicitly defined as one's responsibility>

you summarized my 5+ year experience living in Germany with one sentence in a way that I have never found the words for - thank you, really, thank you

I feel that in Germany, the original intent of the many rules, processes, and procedures has been lost. Employees are trained to operate such that every situation is governed by a rule/process/procedure, and their job is to look up the situation in a massive leather-bound book of branching rules, see which rule applies in the given situation, and then… apply the rule. But, they will do this only if they assess that helping you falls under their job’s responsibilities. Sometimes your situation is neat and clean, and was what the rule-writers thought about when they wrote the rules. Sometimes, not.

TLDR: if you have an edge case in the German bureaucratic system (forms at the doctor’s office, Deutsche Bahn travel troubles, closing a bank account), you are f***

fbcpck 7 hours ago | parent [-]

It is certainly my biggest dislike factor with my stay in Germany, and I'm still struggling to come to terms with it: do I dislike it enough to compel me to move away? is this something I can accept? How much can I influence and improve things that I directly interact with?

It seeps in everywhere too, with almost all aspects.

Day-to-day with restaurants, cafe, shops. Almost all interaction feels like it's actively checked if it's in their process or job description. Shop staffs are typically disengaged and can't really help you with anything outside the normal process.

Healthcare, both receptionist and doctors. You can see the rushed service because they are only compensated for limited amount of time by the state insurance. This took me a while to figure out; the process really defines what treatment you get, with what equipments, as well as the duration, and they have to do their best with the constraints put by the process.

An example: with Wurzelkanalbehandlung, the process says (at least back then) only 1 hour of Laborkosten can be compensated by the state insurance. This means if the dentist took more than 1 hour to work on you, that would be done at their personal loss, and thus the incentive to rush the procedure.

Going private helps (they tend to be more relaxed after the mention of of Privatzahler, and gives you access to newer equipments not yet acknowledged by the state insurance processes), but you still have to research, find, and pick the right practice.

Bureaucracy, administrative. You often have to deal with clerks that just go "I just work here", the rules says this and there's nothing I can do, throws hand in the air. Goodbye, next person please!

In day-to-day work, I can also see it. New hires tend to be more into the work, and questions things, but the system does push everyone to just follow the process and not do anything more. I've seen my colleagues slowly shift into this mode, delivering what is outlined, nothing more, not questioning the intent behind the work (or at least, doing it much less than before, because the system does not incentivise that).

solaire_oa 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I would summarize Americans (and perhaps most English speaking countries) as perceiving this mindset to be callous, ineffective, and a dereliction of autonomy.

But I'm interested in how Germans perceive Americans in reverse? If shop staff went out of their way to help them find a product, shoot the breeze, or recommend a lunch spot, would Germans tend to see this as being overzealous? Would it cause embarrassment, or be a pleasant surprise? Just curious.

Aeolun 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I tend to view shop staff having a random talk with someone while I’m waiting to purchase or ask something as a dereliction of duty. If you want to catch up with a friend you can do it on your own time.

cyberpunk 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The difference in healthcare between private and public insurance is, as far as i know, because if a doctor sends you for some test or something that your insurance feels was unnecessary then the doctor has to pay for it with the public flavour. At least, that’s what I heard but could be wrong.

Kim_Bruning 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Every country is different and you need to learn slightly different ways of dealing with them in each. On a bad day it can be pretty exhausting.

It turns out, people everywhere want the same things, in the end. They just go about them differently.

In Germany, it often helps frame it as both of you trying to work with the rules together; as a framework to build within and on, rather than a cage to hold you in.

Doesn't always work. Nothing works all the time, (especially if the other person is having a bad day themselves and just wants it to be over). But if it helps even once eh?

bratwurst3000 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Frenchman here and so true. I was taking the bus and it was stuck in traffic and I was like "hey can you let me out I life right in that street and shit aint moving" .... no fucking way. had to wait 10 minutes and then walk back to my place... driver was completly ghostinh me after he said the magic german words " I am not allowed to do this".

In france they Busdrivers let me out between stops if I ask them before.

Germany is crazy rule obsessed. they also have the crazy mentality that if you put it into rule problem is solved xD

lynx97 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you don't know german culture, this story might be hard for you to imagine. Fact is, germany has a massive stick up its ass. If there is a written rule, they will follow it, no matter what.