On a related note, they built their digital ID so that third parties could verify attributes (it's NOT just a single-service login across government + a linking ID across government services, which is how it was sold by the BBC).

They're pretty close to completely de-anonymising the internet for UK citizens. Say they introduce an Australian-style social media ban for under 16s, then requires all social media to link their accounts to digital IDs for this verification.

Naturally the only remaining loophole is if a UK citizen manages to avoid being flagged as British ever by using a VPN, so I expect they will focus on that going forwards. Keep in mind the UK already arrests and imprisons vast numbers of people for speech offences, there's no slippery-slope argument here because the UK is already at the bottom of the slope as an ultra-authoratitarian anti-speech nation.

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avianlyric 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> On a related note, they built their digital ID so that third parties could verify attributes

Isn’t that the entire point of government ID of any variety? The only reason anyone ever asks to see ID is so they can use it verify attributes of your identity, such as name and age. Otherwise what’s the point of an Identity Document, if it’s not to document something?

Digital ID has always been sold as something approximating your passport/Driver License (there is no official government ID in the UK), but digital, on your phone, and actually a government identity document. Rather than a government document that has a specific purpose (such as crossing the border or driving a car), which people pretend is government ID. Something that can cause a serious problem for people because passports and driver’s licenses aren’t free to obtain, replace or keep valid. Plus the government departments that issue them refuse to take any responsibility or liability for the accuracy or validity of the documents for any use case outside their very specific role in narrow government functions, like crossing the border, or figuring out if you’re allowed to drive a car.

The UK already has citizen SSO that stretches across all digital government services, and has had that for a decade plus now. Although it’s not really attached your identity, it’s just a unified auth system so government departments don’t end up creating their own broken auth systems instead.

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rtkwe 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Isn’t that the entire point of government ID of any variety?

Ideally this could be done without deanonymizing accounts to service providers unless the user wants to for a 'verified' account linked to their identity publically but I don't think any digital ID system has been built that way. Imagine it acting like OAuth but instead of passing back an identity token it's just verification of age, platforms would store that which would show they had performed the age verification and could be used for other age gates if there are any.

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sorenjan 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's how EU's digital wallet is supposed to work:

> The selective disclosure of attributes will allow you to only share the specific information requested by a service provider, without revealing extra information.

> For example, with the selective disclosure of attributes you could choose to share your date of birth, but without revealing any other identifying details that could be used for profiling.

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/sites/spaces/EU...

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xp84 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're totally right that it would be easy from a tech perspective to do that. it's a shame that:

(A) most people cannot grasp how it could be that "GovSSO" can attest "This person you just sent our way just logged into GovSSO [with biometric 2FA], and they are at least 16 years old" without the receiving system having any way of knowing who that citizen is or even whether they're 16 or 99.

(B) very real terrible government policies the UK has (like jailing people for speech, and like demanding encryption backdoors that compromise the security, at minimum, of the whole of every British citizen's devices, and at worst every device in the world) incline anyone who's paying attention to assume that the government will somehow use anything related to "ID" and "internet" to do idiotic things like figuring out who owns a Twitter account that committed some wrongspeak so the bobbies can come round them up.

	▲	Aurornis 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		> (A) most people cannot grasp how it could be that "GovSSO" can attest "This person you just sent our way just logged into GovSSO [with biometric 2FA], and they are at least 16 years old" without the receiving system having any way of knowing who that citizen is or even whether they're 16 or 99. The loophole that every kid everywhere would instantly figure out is that they just need to borrow their mom’s ID, their older brother’s ID, or a pay some Internet service $1 to use their ID. This is why the services aren’t designed to totally separate the ID from the account. If nothing actually links the ID to the account then there is no disincentive for people to share their IDs or sell their use for a small fee. Stolen IDs would get farmed for logins. So the systems invariably get some form of connection to the ID itself. The people making these laws aren’t concerned about privacy aspects. They want maximum enforcement of their goals.

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kdinn 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You just described OpenID

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nine_k 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A digital ID can be better than a passport / driver license, because it can verify only specific attributes of the bearer to a third party. E.g. only the fact that you're older than 21 in a liquor store or a car rental, but not other details readily visible in a passport.

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Aurornis 2 days ago | parent [-]

Any ID has to reveal enough info to reasonably convince the other party that the ID belongs to that person.

These threads always bring up a hypothetical digital ID that simply says “over 21”, but it’s missing the key point that the ID needs to also give enough information to reasonably tie the identity to the user. Otherwise everyone underage would run around with borrowed or stolen IDs because there was no way to prove it did or did not belong to them.

In theory a digital passport could reveal age 21 or older with a photo and name, but it’s only marginally less info for a lot more complexity.

	▲	avianlyric 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		There are solutions to this. Look at how state ID on iOS is handled. There’s an enrolment process where your identity is bound to your phone, and secured using biometrics. When you need to prove age, the device can produce a signed token attesting to fact that your older than 21 etc. and your device is trusted to validate your identity using a biometric scan performed by your phone. All of this is dependent on everyone trusting your phone to both validate your physical identity before signing something, and also not sharing anything it shouldn’t. But given you can already enroll US state ID on iOS, those problems are clearly solvable.

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bgbntty2 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You mentioned "on your phone". Is it only for phone OSes? A depressing "download from the Google Play Store or the Apple App Store only" app? Are UK citizens required to have it?

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subscribed 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not a "citizen SSO", even non-residents use it when paying taxes, for self-assessment purposes.

It's Government services SSO.

And no, Digital ID wasn't sold as something like this, it has been sold as a way to prevent (?) "illegals" from working, by introducing system entirely similar to the current eVisa.

Unless you slept through all these televised discussions where Keir Starmer with a stern face explained how a wholly-digital system replacing wholly-digital system will stop these pesky immigrants from getting work (it's almost like in the current systems employers didn't have to do these checks already).

There's been SO, SO MANY lies, like that this system wi be similar to the Polish/Estonian, only these two are primarily physical documents, additionally bearing certificates that can be used to authenticate against the participating systems.

Sure, some countries ALSO have a digital form of the ID, but never advertised as a hate-whip against the others.

The primary problem with the only-electronic Certificate you call ID, is that it's supposed to be always online (never cached, like, say...... Um.....actual Digital ids or cards in the normal phones), so it can be cancelled at any point, also due to the errors of the government employees or systems.

The problem is that MANY people had a very serious problems with eVisa already, leading to being bounced off the Border Patrol or failing to prove right to rent.

Even if the idea of the ID was in general good (and I use one I really love, works wonderfully well), this government lied too many times and is forcing us to eat the frog that we've seen many times prior, is half baked and will burst in someone's face.

This idea is tainted because we're lied to and it's half-baked, and hostile in principle, not helpful.

	▲	avianlyric 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		You’re making the assumption that inherently support the creation of Digital ID. I’ve not expressed support for it, I’m just highlighting that if someone is going to criticise it, they should at least understand it well enough to make useful, accurate, criticism. Criticising ID for making it possible for 3rd parties to verify attributes is a ridiculous thing to do, because that’s the entire point of ID. If someone wants to criticise the exact mechanism used to allow 3rd parties to verify attributes of someone’s ID, then they should be clear about what that mechanism is, and why it’s problematic. Otherwise it’s impossible to have a sensible discussion, and discuss the various pros and cons of different implementations. At the end of the day it’s beyond clear we’re moving towards a world where governments and people expect the internet to work closer to how the real world works, with equivalent limitation such as age gating. Putting forward inaccurate, and hyperbolic arguments about arbitrary, indistinct risks associated forms of Digital ID ultimately does us all a huge disservice, because it creates the opportunity to dismiss all criticism as little more than hysterical whining by people uninterested in learning about the societal problems Digital ID is meant to deal with. Which ultimately means we’re removed from the entire discussion about alternative approaches to Digital ID, or implementations of Digital ID that are privacy preserving. If we’re not involved in those discussions, and seen as creditable contributors to solving the underlying problem, then those pushing for more authoritarian approaches win the argument by default.

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FridayoLeary 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Nobody asked for it. Digital ID is being introduced to help the government, not the people.

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iamacyborg 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Keep in mind the UK already arrests and imprisons vast numbers of people for speech offences

I think you’ve been spending too much time on Twitter

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piker 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> While figures show that the total number of arrests for online posts fell to 9,700 last year, down from a record 13,800 in 2023...

https://freespeechunion.org/daily-mail-investigation-exposes...

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omh 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

This is based on statistics for the Malicious Communications Act. That includes people sending, for example, threatening messages to an ex partner.

Not all of them are online posts, in fact probably a minority

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piker 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's what would be reasonably expected, but it's not backed up by the information.

> The total arrest figures are likely to be far higher because eight forces failed to respond to freedom of information requests or provided inadequate data, including Police Scotland, the second largest force in the UK. Some forces also included arrests for “threatening” messages, though these do not fall under the specified sections. [emphasis added]

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-make-30-arr... (https://archive.is/kC5x2#selection-3325.0-3325.335)

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omh 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Thanks. That wasn't clear from the Mail article above.

But the Times article also says:

> A spokeswoman for Leicestershire police said crimes under Section 127 and Section 1 include “any form of communication” such as phone calls, letters, emails and hoax calls to emergency services.

So I think the categorisation is a mess, and probably not even consistent across forces

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hopelite 2 days ago | parent [-]

I have to say, it is a bit astonishing how much you are in a kind of bargaining stage of trying to rationalize how what is happening, is not actually happening, all while the trap doors are closing all around you even though very slowly.

Why do you think that is?

It is not just a British thing, because this ruling class tyranny is descending all across the western world, regardless of whether it is particularly egregious in the UK. Or should we maybe just start calling it Airstrip One at this point, the AO?

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2 days ago | parent | next [-]

[deleted]

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Defletter 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

For me at least (different person), the term "speech offences" has been so captured by the far-right who think publicly advocating for the burning down of buildings populated with minorities is totally fine, but calling someone racist is beyond the pale. Whereas, at least from my own experience, progressives tend to use phrases related to expression, eg, protests.

And so when I hear "speech offences", my immediate thought is to question the premise: Are we talking about people publicly advocating for mass violence? Are we talking about bullying or harassment? Are we talking about a private conversation? Are we talking about a group chat? Are we talking about hate speech? Are we talking about defamation? Are we talking about "fighting words"? Etc. Context matters.

For all the talk I see online advocating for social media to be considered a public space, I've yet to see anyone really grasp the consequences of that: have any of them tried yelling out in a public space that they should burn down a populated building? That won't go down well, and rightly so. It has never been okay to do that.

People facing consequences for broadcasting their depraved bloodlust online doesn't concern me. What concerns me is the extent to which protests against genocide are being suppressed, with police looking for any minor infraction to pounce upon, but we have video of people saying to police "I support the genocide" to make a point, which the police don't bat an eye at. That scares me.

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ipaddr 2 days ago | parent [-]

For you the issue is a left right issue and if the opinion matches yours it is acceptable and seen in a positive light but if it's the other side you have no tolerance.

You will never have free speech just controlled speech with alternating people in power. Which I think is a worse outcome because the people in power will never allow controlled speech against them.

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Defletter 2 days ago | parent [-]

> For you the issue is a left right issue and if the opinion matches yours it is acceptable and seen in a positive light but if it's the other side you have no tolerance.

When you remove all content and context from what is actually being said and done, then yes, this is fairly accurate, but it's also an entirely meaningless framing. But you have fallen into the trap of thinking I only support protests that I agree with, which is the usual response for these kinds of discussions, sadly. If you want your climate-contrarian protest, by all means do so. Unironically do Straight Pride if that's what you want. I believe protest, and expression more generally, is a fundamental right. But what you're doing here is (to use a hyperbolic comparison) accusing me of hypocrisy because I'm okay with interpretive dance but not murder, even though they're both just actions. It reminds me of 2016 Reddit where slurs were "just soundwaves, bro".

We don't have American-style freedom of speech, nor should we. We have freedom of expression instead because we have very personal experience within our very recent history what unfettered hatred does to a continent. Attempting to import American-style freedom of speech will genuinely destroy this country, we are already seeing it happen.

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ipaddr a day ago | parent | next [-]

Many people share your viewpoint on the left and right. It's natural to support free speech for what you agree and censor what you don't. It's part of living in a left or right ghetto of thought.

Take a step back. The right is in power you are not allowed to speak your ideas. The left is in power you can say anything that supports their agenda.

What you can never do is speak against the government right or left

Why would you want that? Seems like the worst of all worlds.

Isn't the history you are trying to not repeat a history of controlled speech where the wrong party got elected or got in power? Why won't this happen again and again?

	▲	Defletter a day ago \| parent [-]
		> It's natural to support free speech for what you agree and censor what you don't. Y'all really don't make a convincing case for freedom of speech when you cannot even read. Let me repeat: "You have fallen into the trap of thinking I only support protests that I agree with, which is the usual response for these kinds of discussions, sadly. If you want your climate-contrarian protest, by all means do so. Unironically do Straight Pride if that's what you want. I believe protest, and expression more generally, is a fundamental right."

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u_sama 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Someday we need to kill this myth, the wave of fascisms that appeared in Europe (Italy, Germany, Spain, Romania) are more of a cultural and economic reaction to the destruction of the Great War and not due to "unlimited free speech".

Free speech does not amplify or cultivate hate, it lets it fester in dark areas until it explodes when a crisis happens (which is what is happening currently).

Free speech and open discourse serves as a pressure valve release and self-correcting mechanism where by impopular or "untolerable" but common opinions have to be dealt with i.e the migration backlash in Europe

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Defletter 2 days ago | parent [-]

Protests are pressure valves, not tweets.

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u_sama 2 days ago | parent [-]

Please tell me how did the recent wave of Gen-Z protests start, hw did the Arab spring start?

Tweets (and other censored social media) for better or for worse have been at the center of impactful political movements and protests

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Defletter 2 days ago | parent [-]

Again, you are stripping all context and content. You are pretending that protest organising and calling for the burning down of a building populated with asylum seekers are the same thing. I vehemently reject this facetious framing.

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u_sama 2 days ago | parent [-]

You're conflating legitimate criticism with incitement. The police record suggest the opposite.

Take the example *Bernadette Spofforth, 55*, she shared false information that the attacker was an asylum seeker, adding "If this is true, all hell will break loose." (not false btw) Deleted it, apologized. She still got arrested, held 36 hours, and then *released without charge because of insufficient evidence*.

No call for violence, "misinformation", which she retracted when corrected. Yet she still was arrested during the crackdown. The state used riot prosecutions to sweep up misinformation, political speech and "hatred" on one swoop not just incitement. Spofforth's arrest (and quiet release) shows they criminalized *any speech near the riots*, then kinda sorted legality later.

You're using the retarded Lucy Connolly to justify arresting people like Spofforth (which has opinion closer to the average). That's the poisoning-the-well: conflate extremists with moderates sharing concerns, arrest both, then claim all arrested speech was violent incitement.

You also seem to not take into account that *the UK has built the legal apparatus to enable this overreach:*

- *Public Order Act 1986*: Criminalizes speech where "hatred" is "likely" to be stirred up. You're criminal based on how others react.

- *Online Safety Act 2023*: Forces platforms to remove "harmful" content or face £18 million fines.

- *Non-Crime Hate Incidents*: Since 2014, police record speech "perceived" as hateful, even when no crime occurred. 133,000+ recorded. No evidence, no appeals, appears on background checks. Court ruled this unlawful for "chilling effect" in 2021 yet police continue anyway.

In total it ends up with 12,000+ annual arrests for speech (30/day), fourfold increase since 2016. 666,000 police hours on non-crimes. Broad laws + complaint-driven policing = arrest first, determine legality never.

Free speech protects conditional statements about policy during crises or when the people has something to say to its elites. The 36-hour detention without charges proves the suppression.

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Defletter a day ago | parent [-]

> You're conflating legitimate criticism with incitement.

You should tell the right wingers that. Here's some of the right-wing sources I found when searching Ground News for some articles about Lucy Connolly, the woman who publicly advocating for the burning down of hotels housing asylum seekers:

- "British Mother Jailed for Tweet: ‘I Was Starmer’s Political Prisoner’" (The European Conservative) (https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/british-mothe...)

- "Lucy Connolly considers legal action against police after being jailed for race hate tweet" (LBC) (https://www.lbc.co.uk/article/lucy-connolly-first-interview-...)

- "‘Silencing the right!’ Free speech boss rages over Lucy Connolly’s ‘absolutely heartbreaking’ admission" (GB News) (https://www.gbnews.com/news/free-speech-lucy-connolly-admiss...)

You may notice a theme amongst these articles about how "it was just a tweet" and "she's a political prisoner" and "calculated move to suppress conservative viewpoints on immigration". This is what the right does. I'm not conflating legitimate criticism with incitement, they are, and they're using their massive media empires to spread this conflation.

This is just going to fix itself with more speech, right?

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u_sama 18 hours ago | parent [-]

I actually do too, the issue is that in today’s wacko world the defense of Free Speech which in the early 2000s was a domain of the left/center-left, now has been abandonded due to the notion of “hate-speech” and opportunistically taken by the right (even tho many like MAGA will drop it the moment it stops being politically convenient i.e expulsion of students being critical of Israel actions).

A lot of those are propaganda peddlers who would drop the charade the moment someone on their political opposite side finds themselves in the same position (they keep crying about statements of Palestine and anti-semitism). I agree that they are stupid in their defense of Lucy Connely who literally and unrepentably pushed to “burn the asylum centers”, and that they are willfully conflating the issue to further their agenda.

The issue is both you and the retarded conservatives uses the situation to push their agendas, and as a counterpoint while they have media empires the left-wing political side also has media conglomerates pushing their ideas (BBC having a center-left slant).

No, the issue is going to fix itself with free speech, when no side is persecuted and better quality and rational discourse can arise and not be censored or overtaken by the extremes. Currently the only sane takes on many issues like immigration, economy or free speech exist only in the internet ghettos hidden from the larger public.

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Defletter 9 hours ago | parent [-]

> which in the early 2000s was a domain of the left/center-left

Could you elaborate on that? I'm aware of the Lib Dems championing changes to the law to remove restrictions on "insulting" speech, but even so, they're not left/centre left. There's a joke that they're just yellow tories.

> now has been abandonded due to the notion of “hate-speech”

That's untrue. Stirring up or inciting racial hatred was made an offence by the Public Order Act 1986. And while it's true that stirring up religious hatred and homophobic hatred were added to that in 2006 and 2008 respectively, this did not invent the notion of hate speech. Lord Sumption, who was on our Supreme Court, said that the traditional line in English law was between words that merely outrage and words that would cause a breach of the peace amongst reasonable people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=END98dJwpCg&t=1306s). Stirring up racial, religious, or homophobic hatred would seem to conform to that.

> BBC having a center-left slant

That's also untrue. The BBC participated in the pillorying of Corbyn; the BBC gave JK Rowling a Russel Prize for her anti-trans manifesto (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55350905); the whole debacle with the "We're being pressured into sex by some trans women" article (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4buJMMiwcg); the BBC downplaying Gaza (eg: killed vs died, not allowing the term "genocide", demanding anyone critical of Israel to ritualistically condemn Hamas, etc); the BBC preventing pro-Palestinian audience members for Question Time (https://www.thecanary.co/global/world-analysis/2025/10/03/bb...). And speaking of Question Time, how many times has Farage (or other Reformer) been a panellist now? And this is just the stuff I've personally witnessed and noted down. The BBC is establishment media through and through: the BBC is not suddenly centre left because there's gay people in Eastenders.

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zozzle 9 hours ago | parent [-]

> the BBC gave JK Rowling a Russel Prize for her anti-trans manifesto

It wasn't an "anti-trans manifesto", but a thoughtful explanation of her reasons for speaking out on the sex and gender issue, where she discusses her concerns for women's rights and safety, the well-being of vulnerable children, and how important it is to be allowed to speak freely on this topic. Plenty of people on the left (and centre-left) agree with her too.

As with all her work, it was very well written, which the article you linked rightly acknowledges.

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Defletter 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Oh hello, welcome to this 18-comment deep thread. This is the second time now that I've mentioned JK Rowling's transphobia and had a randomer show up and comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37058027). You, like them, also only speak about JKR on your profile. How curious.

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zozzle 8 hours ago | parent [-]

All that link shows is you have a long-running habit of disparaging outspoken feminists.

	▲	Defletter 5 hours ago \| parent [-]
		It's shows that JKR, a billionaire, has an army of sleeper accounts willing to jump at any mention of her nakedly virulent transphobia. Second-wave feminists would deplore her bio-essentialism. She is an anti-feminist.

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Forgeties79 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe I am reading these wrong, but it doesn’t appear to me these sources indicate that a significant number of people are being arrested for “speech offenses,” which I’m guessing you are using as shorthand for statements akin to those that would fall under “free speech” in the US. If I’m not seeing it or I am not correctly defining what you mean, feel free to correct me. I’m having to make some assumptions here

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piker 2 days ago | parent [-]

It can be hard to wrap your head around it from the US, but many of these are people that are in fact being arrested for writing posts on social media, e.g.,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-6... (arrested for post wearing a Manchester Arena bomber costume)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-60930670 (arrested for posting "the only good British soldier is a dead British soldier" from Scotland)

that would be categorically protected speech in the US.

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XorNot 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

And in many other countries those would get you prosecuted for hate speech or incitement to violence.

The lie here is you've picked too examples of atrocious behavior, but you're trying to pretend that actually all the rest are just people posting dank memes and so "it could happen to you!!".

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istjohn 2 days ago | parent [-]

Those examples are completely inoccuous to my sensibilities. Of course, there are plenty of countries that lack the broad speech protections Americans enjoy, but one doesn't expect such curtailments of personal liberty in a fellow English-speaking western "liberal" democracy.

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fao_ 2 days ago | parent [-]

The first example was "man arrested for wearing the exact same outfit as a man who intentionally blew himself up, killing 22 people". It's not "he was wearing the same chequered shirt!" either. As a UK citizen... I don't see how that fits under "free speech", lol

Even with "freedom of speech", you do not have "freedom from fascism" built into that, case in point, Wikipedia has multiple pages documenting both the current US administration's attitude towards trans people (that, in Charlie Kirk's words, we are "abominations unto god" that should be "taken care of" "as in the 50s/60s", which can only be taken to mean lynching), as well as the attitude of the US presidency towards democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_transgender_peo...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeting_of_political_opponen...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_14290 (were PBS and NPR "biased"?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_backsliding_in_the_...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/sep/25/transg...

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ipaddr 2 days ago | parent [-]

Freedom to choose clothing wouldn't fall under any version of freedom of speech?

I would would work with your fellow citizens to change that.

	▲	fao_ a day ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I think the issue here isn't "freedom of speech", its that people who claim to want "freedom for speech" are either using it as a shield to say vile things to other people, or they feel that "freedom of speech" is the only thing one needs to guard against fascism. The resulting difficulty is that the former is demonstrably true, and the former is demonstrably false.
	▲	2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		[deleted]

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Forgeties79 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It can be hard to wrap your head around it from the US,

Come on. Was that necessary? I understand what we are talking about, I am saying none of those articles indicate that there is some huge thing going on where people in the UK are being arrested by the tens of thousands for irreverent memes or whatever. The issue is not my understanding, it’s the handwaving and vague generalizations that are causing issues. It’s coming across as fear mongering and I am looking for clarity.

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piker a day ago | parent [-]

I don’t think you understand. Either of those arrests are unconscionable by American standards. Most U.S. folks would be shocked to ever see such a thing, so it’s necessary to first show it to level-set that non-US jurisdictions don’t have any concept like the 1st Amendment. It wasn’t a slight in any way.

It was to say: even a single arrest on those grounds would be national news in the U.S. and quickly over turned by any circuit in the judiciary.

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Forgeties79 a day ago | parent [-]

I feel like we are talking at cross purposes here and this all feels very broad, so I’m still not entirely sure what you are driving at other than “in the UK people are being silenced and arrested for what I consider to be acceptable speech” in some general sense. I don’t know what the line is, I don’t know what the numbers are, I really don’t have any sense of the scale or specifics of your claim.

I was responding to the initial comment at first: that upwards of 10,000 people are being arrested annually now in the UK for irreverent posts online and the like. The sources that were shared do not show that. Now you’re saying it’s really about any single incident being unacceptable and how an American can’t fathom it.

Do you see why I’m having trouble following this conversation?

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piker a day ago | parent [-]

Yes, I think we'll have continued difficulty reconciling this understanding.

It's almost impossible to get arrested for posting something that isn't CSAM or literal state secrets on Twitter in the US. Even so-called "hate speech" is broadly protected in the US by the First Amendment. In fact the American Civil Liberties Union (which is loathed by the American right) has gone to bat and litigated on behalf of the KKK of all organizations, for example, to protect those rights.

If you send "menacing" notes to someone, that can be a part of a larger crime like harassment, assault or stalking, but as noted in the chain, that's not what's being measured here.

So the fact that people are being arrested at all for tweets is not "what I consider to be acceptable speech" but in fact what the US generally considers to be protected speech. Any number above 0 that doesn't reference child porn is infinitely more than you'd expect to see in the US. That's the difficulty we're having.

[Edit: I understand US != UK. The American flag only flies in the embassy here. I just wanted to provide the context of those arrests and these numbers to US readers who will find them surprising.]

	▲	fao_ a day ago \| parent [-]
		My wife in the USA had semi-anonymous texts send to her personal over a course of 2 years. They included her home address, her mother's home address with a picture of the home, and they stated that they would kill her and anyone she loved. She never saw justice for it. The police said there was nothing they could do, despite having the phone number it came from, because it was across state lines. The texts stop, and we suspect that it coincided with a specific person who went to jail for a year or so for unrelated offences around the time that the texts stopped. That person is still out there.

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pksebben 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

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xp84 2 days ago | parent [-]

Okay, so I see we've arrived at fantasyland now. Just because someone probably posted an idiotic idea like that on Twitter one time does not mean it has any path to becoming law. Do you know how difficult it is to get a constitutional amendment passed?

	▲	swores 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I agree that it's not currently reality and the person you replied to could have made their point by using actual examples of appalling ICE actions rather than a scenario that's currently just fantasy. That said, it's not just "someone posted an idiotic idea on Twitter". The idea of stripping people of their citizenship has literally been suggested by the current president to a press gaggle, and that's not a one off random statement it follows years of things like prominent political voices suggesting that certain Muslim members of congress should be deported despite their having been born in the US... As to the technical difficulties of passing a constitutional amendment, I agree it's hard to imagine that happening. Depressingly though it's less hard to imagine the president signing an executive order telling ICE to go against that part of the constitution, followed by one or both of ICE actions outpacing judicial ability to enforce the constitution, and/or judges ruling in favour of ICE being allowed to ignore the constitution. These are possibilities that, if suggested 30 years ago would sound like crazy conspiracy theory territory, but in 2025 they're actual plausible scenarios looking at the coming months, yet alone years. I wish this was just scare mongering, but the truth is if you don't think this is possible then you haven't been following US politics closely enough - from the words of Trump and his team, such as Stephen Miller, to the actions of agencies such as ICE and the FBI, to rulings of the Supreme Court such as the one giving Trump unqualified immunity that anything he does as a work act rather than a personal one can't be treated as illegal, even if it goes against the constitution.
	▲	pksebben 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		See, I don't think they'd really bother with an amendment. FWIG there's also something in there about the right to a trial (is it the sixth?) that they've just kinda ignored. Is it that it's the first one that makes it more important? We've also gotten over our (apparently) ludicrous assumption that posse comitatus means anything.

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2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[deleted]

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nateabele 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How many arrests does it take to chill free speech?

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bawolff 2 days ago | parent [-]

How many were for politcal speech as opposed to say threatening to murder someone?

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reliabilityguy 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I would say even one is too many.

The law was written in such a way intentionally to suppress speech. People who wrote it ain’t stupid.

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xp84 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Indeed. The success of even one such prosecution means that the second someone in government wants someone out of the way, they can efficiently be imprisoned for anything rising to the level of... "offensive."

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fao_ 2 days ago | parent [-]

"offensive" actually has a relatively solid definition based on how judges have ruled on it in the past. This includes hate-mongering against protected characteristics, which I see a lot of from the USA right now.

	▲	reliabilityguy 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Can you share this definition of “offensive” you mentioned?
	▲	bufio 16 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		You're loving this.

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bawolff 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I would say even one is too many.

Well, is the number > 0?

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qcnguy 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Huge numbers are for political speech. It's not just prosecutions. Child protection is abused to force far left wing beliefs on the population.

A former Marine was charged with inciting racial hatred after describing some migrants as “scumbags” and “psychopaths” in a 12-minute video posted on Facebook following the murders of three children in Southport, which sparked riots around the country. He was then banned from coaching his own daughter's football club. A jury cleared him in 17 minutes, but Wales is run by the left so they kept the coaching ban in place because they believe right wing people are a threat to children.

In another case a teacher was banned from working with children after telling a Muslim child that "Britain is still a Christian state"

There are lots of cases like this. Especially if you expand to Europe. The German Chancellor has personally prosecuted thousands of speech cases against people who insulted him. Merkel established a general rule against insulting politicians so now people get police visits and their devices confiscated for saying things like such and such a politician is a dumbass.

	▲	bawolff 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> He was then banned from coaching his own daughter's football club. A jury cleared him in 17 minutes, but Wales is run by the left so they kept the coaching ban in place because they believe right wing people are a threat to children. Who is the "they" in this? The football club? If the situation is essentially that he called certain groups scumbags, but the footbal club has members of that group, its not surprising he would be banned. Being rude gets you banned from things. I don't see a problem with that. He wasn't thrown in jail, he said something that offended some people and as a result they decided they didn't like him anymore. Freedom of association is also freedom to chose not to associate with people you don't like. > In another case a teacher was banned from working with children after telling a Muslim child that "Britain is still a Christian state" I mean, that sounds like a dick thing to say to a child or to anyone. And not particularly true (yes there are some vestiges with the church of england, but you are allowed to be any religion in england) Was that person prosecuted or just fired? > The German Chancellor has personally prosecuted thousands of speech cases against people who insulted him. I highly doubt it.

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aunty_helen 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Not all of them

Do you understand the concept of a slippery slope? Anyone being arrested for online posts is too many from a free speech absolutist pov.

	▲	anthem2025 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Free speech absolutism is a nonsensical position.

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cj 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I thought Daily Mail was close to tabloid status (or a bit above). Aren’t they banned from being a citation on Wikipedia?

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4bpp 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It is by no means a good publication, but at the same time being accepted as a citation on Wikipedia or not is not necessarily a particularly objective measure of quality. I recommend reading https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/reliable-sources-how-wik... for the critical perspective on Wikipedia's integrity in this regard.

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autoexec 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They are a trash paper so skepticism is warranted but care should be taken not to dismiss facts just because of who reports them. Thankfully, we don't have to depend on the word of the Daily Mail for evidence that the UK doesn't value the ideal of free speech and are far too comfortable punishing and silencing online speech. It's a problem, and it makes their efforts to tie people's online activity to an individual worrying.

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DANmode 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Best reply of siblings, by far.

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phatfish 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

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istjohn 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Dunn was jailed eight weeks for posting three memes:

> Prosecutor George Shelley said Dunn had posted three separate images. The first one showed a group of men, Asian in appearance, at Egremont crab fair 2025, with the caption: “Coming to a town near you.”

> The second also showed a group of men, Asian in appearance leaving a boat on to Whitehaven beach. This, said Mr Shelley, had the caption: “When it’s on your turf, then what?”

> A final image showed a group of men, again Asian in appearance, wielding knives in front of the Palace of Westminster. There was also a crying white child in a Union flag T-shirt. This was also captioned, said Mr Shelley, with the wording: “Coming to a town near you.”

https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/24513379.sellafield-worke...

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fao_ 2 days ago | parent [-]

Based on those descriptions... it sounds like he was pretty clearly racist? From the article:

> Sentencing Thompson, Judge Temperley had said of the zero tolerance approach being taken by courts:

> “This offence, I’m afraid, has to be viewed in the context of the current civil unrest up and down this country. And I’ve no doubt at all that your post is connected to that wider picture.

> “I don’t accept that your comments and the emojis that you posted were directed at the police. I’ve read in the case summary of the comments you made on arrest which clearly demonstrate to me that there was a racial element to the messaging and the posting of these emojis.

> “That has to be reflected in the sentence...there to be a deterrent element in the sentence that I impose, because this sort of behaviour has to stop.

> “It encourages others to behave in a similar way and ultimately it leads to the sorts of problems on the streets that we’ve been seeing in so many places up and down this country. This offence is serious enough for custody.”

So the actual news here is "man jailed for sharing memes that Asian people are invading the UK and coming to murder you".

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istjohn 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yes. It's a horrible sentiment, and he should be able to air it. Free and open discourse requires me to allow you to say things I dislike in exchange for you tolerating my saying things you dislike. It isn't free speech if you're only allowed to say popular things.

	▲	Defletter 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		The continual conflation of speech that harms society as "speech I dislike" is absurd. And yes, it's not American-style freedom of speech... we've never had that nor should we. Just look at what American-style freedom of speech has done to America.
	▲	fao_ a day ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		As a minority, I do not hold the same view. I understand your position, however, my personhood is often demonstrably conditional on the speech that other people spread about me and people like me. In the last decade I have seen fascist speech go unpunished and, consequently, the increased spread of the idea that I and people like me are not people, that I am simply an evil and horrible person for my genetic identity, forever tainted, an "undesirable", and a very suitable target for being marginalised and erased (often violently) from society. I have already been victim to these effects, as have my friends, and I have seen others, those with a different skin colour on top of the genetic difference, bear the effects tenfold. I have known of people murdered in the streets for simply having my genetic trait, even if it didn't hit the international news, I saw how people spoke about it online even despite the hate speech acts. That another one of us dead was a good thing. I have also been witness to the power that physical violence inflicted upon these people has had in silencing that rhetoric and the spread of those ideas. I have seen how fascists go into hiding when they feel they will be the victims of violence, and I have seen how easy it is to break apart these networks by simply restricting the speech of a handful of people, or removing them from the platform. I very much do feel, that either I am in a concentration camp in the next ten years, or these people are imprisoned. Prison is the lighter sentence for fascist rhetoric, and represent sane and sensible consequences for suggesting that an entire group of people who hold no specific ideology are evil. Remember that a war was fought, and the alternative to imprisonment for fascist rhetoric is letting it grow so large that the only inevitable solution is a war where people are murdered for their fascist rhetoric. Before comparing the third paragraph with the first, please remember, that these people can simply choose to not say vile things about people with my genetics. If they do not wish to go to prison, maybe they should not make wide fascistic statements about people with my genetics being murderers and pedophiles — both claims that are starkly in opposition to the evidence. I am 60% more likely to be sexually assaulted compared to the baseline, cisgender female population. I cannot change my genetics, nor would I want to if I had the option, and my genetics do not represent my ideology or how I behave or act in public or private.
	▲	sofixa 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		We know this doesn't work, and it's insane Americans still pretend it does. Goebbels himself said it while they were abusing the Weimar German freedoms and protections of democracy to take power with violence. They were very happy to use the tools of democracy to destroy it. We owe it to our societies and democracy not to let this kind of speech in particular to prosper. And for a more recent example, you have a presidential couple that (among a million other things) lied publicly, and admitted to it. And they're now in power because their hatred-filled lies were not checked. And the country is sliding fast towards fascism, ignoring courts to concentration camps with no records to suing media to bully them into favourable reporting to pick any other example you want. Guess the country!

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Ferret7446 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's unfortunate that this seems to have been forgotten in only a few decades, but one day you may find yourself as the one who is clearly racist and despite your protests there will be no one left to defend you

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autoexec 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Apart from Israel/Palestine what speech is being silenced?

You say that as if people posting about Israel/Palestine isn't political speech that matters. Free speech matters and you shouldn't have police coming after you for it even you're just a teenager posting lyrics to facebook (Chelsea Russell) drawing a penis on a photo of a cop (Jordan Barrack), sharing a vacation photo of yourself holding a gun (Jon Richelieu-Booth), repeating gossip surrounding recent events (Bonnie Spofforth), talking shit about your boss (Robert Moss), or saying that a politician should resign (Helen Jones).

While that kind of speech can be silly, thoughtless, rude, or annoying it's also normal everyday speech that happens everywhere. Just because technology allows police monitor our speech more closely than they could before that's no reason for using that to go after people for the kinds of expression that have been a normal part of life for ages.

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andsoitis 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What do you think about the attempt to ban VPN (this story)?

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pydry 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>this nonsense about the UK being some authoritarian hell hole is getting silly.

Not really. They're arresting people for protesting a genocide.

>i don't mean some obnoxious twat bulling teachers over Facebook. I mean speech that actually matters

Just a holocaust, nbd.

	▲	rounce 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		They're not being arrested "for protesting a genocide", they're being arrested for showing support for a group which has been declared to be a terrorist organisation. Regardless of your views on the latter, the former is an important distinction you seem to be unaware of. The fact there are thousands of people regularly protesting against Israeli actions in Palestine and yet not being arrested completely undermines your point.

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knorker 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

People have been arrested for silently praying in their head.

And for saying "not my king".

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stooart 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Daily Mail is definitely tabloid, although some might describe it as a comic. There are reasons why Wikipedia doesn't allow it as a source.

	▲	slowmovintarget 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per...
	▲	reliabilityguy 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		> There are reasons why Wikipedia Wikipedia by itself is not a reliable source [0]. [0] https://en.ejo.ch/public-relations/manipulation-wikipedia

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sys_64738 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's a chipwrapper.

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Digit-Al 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Daily Mail is frequently referred to as either 'The Daily Fail' or 'The Daily Heil' (referring to the fact they supported Oswald Mosley and his fascist ideals, and remain very right wing). It is not a quality publication by any means.

	▲	jjgreen 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		TFA: https://review.gale.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/hurrah-fo...

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984635026859846 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

	▲	wasabi991011 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Scientific publishing is a decentralized system, there's no specific ban in place, just that publishers will likely not accept to publish your paper. And the reason for that is accuracy nor bias, just that Wikipedia is not a primary source. You don't generally cite any encyclopedias in scientific papers.

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2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[deleted]

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cyanydeez 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

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marcus_holmes 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

see [0] the original Palestine Action protestors, who were arrested in 2024 and are not likely to see trial until at the best May 2026, and some sources are saying January 2027.

They are being kept in remand, with no possibility of release, for at least two years, without being convicted of a crime.

This is legal because Palestine Action is a terrorist organisation and the UK passed some farcical laws aimed at preventing terrorism, that everyone pointed out at the time would be used against non-terrorists eventually. They are using this same law to arrest hundreds of people for doing nothing more than holding a placard.

In the UK, if the government can make a case that you are a terrorist, then arrest is absolutely the same as imprisons. And similar farcical laws are operating in most Western democracies.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqxq3g9g4eyo

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stickfigure 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's not reassuring in the slightest.

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cyanydeez 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Is it reassuring that some of the speech is a call to kill other people both online and in the strwets?

Do you even descern any difference?

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OJFord 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Not in the slightest?

	▲	junon 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		No.

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ethanwillis 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, let me just arrest you over some text and hold you for a couple of days.

Surely no problem! But being serious if anything this is worse than no imprisonment. Why are they arresting so many people they don't have any grounds to jail longer term?

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iamacyborg 2 days ago | parent [-]

Days?

> The police can hold you for up to 24 hours before they have to charge you with a crime or release you.

> They can apply to hold you for up to 36 or 96 hours if you’re suspected of a serious crime, such as murder.

> You can be held without charge for up to 14 days if you’re arrested under the Terrorism Act.

https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-be-...

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marcus_holmes 2 days ago | parent [-]

but then once charged you can be held for years on remand [0], there is no limit to how long the court can take to actually getting around to holding your trial. The law says now 8 months, but (as this site says) people are held for years.

[0] https://legalknowledgebase.com/how-long-can-someone-be-held-...

	▲	cyanydeez a day ago \| parent [-]
		Yeah, and once your speech incites people to set a hotel full of people on fire, some of them can die forever! It really makes you think.

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oytis 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People do get imprisoned for "terrorist speech" to my best knowledge. Up to 15 years prison time if I understand the law correctly

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iamacyborg 2 days ago | parent [-]

You do realise what terrorist speech entails though, right?

	▲	vhcr 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/07/uk-palestine...
	▲	oytis 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Well, I know that it doesn't entail any terrorist actions that would justify the gravity of the punishment

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himinlomax 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A distinction without a difference.

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hayd 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

the process is the punishment

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ribosometronome 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The parent comment specifically quoted both, making a citation for arrests fairly topical.

>Keep in mind the UK already arrests and imprisons vast numbers of people for speech offences

>>I think you’ve been spending too much time on Twitter

Did you miss it or are we moving the goalposts for some reason?

	▲	y0dogBut 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		[dead]

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goalieca 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The simple threat of arrest, even if they only happen by the hundreds, is enough to have a chilling effect on free speech.

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iamacyborg 2 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

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nothrabannosir 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Citation not needed at all. This is not a scientific journal; it’s a discussion forum. If you disagree feel free to share your own opinion.

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SlackingOff123 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you want a citation for an opinion?

	▲	exe34 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		if it's being offered as a well thought out opinion based on facts, yes absolutely, it's fine to ask for the sauce.

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2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[deleted]

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tekla 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/police-make-30-arr...

> Officers from 37 police forces made 12,183 arrests in 2023, the equivalent of about 33 per day. This marks an almost 58 per cent rise in arrests since before the pandemic. In 2019, forces logged 7,734 detentions.

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viraptor 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

This article really doesn't go into what the communication was about. They have some anecdata, but once you go into 10k+ of examples, you're almost guaranteed to get mistakes. Maybe the situation is bad overall, but that article really doesn't show it.

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4ndrewl 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

In England and Wales there are 85k people serving custodial sentences and 250k community sentences. 12k seems significant, if true.

	▲	iamacyborg 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Arrests are not the same thing as imprisonment or community sentences.

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miohtama 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Here is House of Lords if Twitter is unreliable

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2025-07-17/debates/F807C...

Online Communication Offence Arrests Volume 847: debated on Thursday 17 July 2025

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gmac 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I wouldn’t dismiss this so easily, the Palestine Action stuff is pretty appalling.

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iamacyborg 2 days ago | parent [-]

You mean folks choosing to protest under the guise of a proscribed organisation?

Protesting in favour of Palestine remains legal, doing so under the name of a proscribed organisation is not.

Admittedly, the reason for them being proscribed is rather idiotic.

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pjc50 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's exactly it. The proscription is ridiculous and delegitimises the whole concept of proscribed organization. It collapses into "mere support for Palestine is an arrestable offense". This didn't work against Sinn Fein and it will not work now.

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iamacyborg 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> It collapses into "mere support for Palestine is an arrestable offense".

It explicitly doesn’t do that, folks are still very much free to protest in support of Palestine.

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JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> The proscription is ridiculous

They broke into a military base. If that was sanctioned by the organisation, they should be shut down.

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pjc50 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's the organisation. The knock on effects are quite considerable. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/nov/27/sally-rooney-p...

Also the whole thing moved incredibly quickly; it went from new organization to banned almost immediately. I'm fairly sure that other groups previously like the Greenham Common camp didn't get this treatment.

It was reasonable to arrest people who actually broke into the base and those who organized it. Going after those speaking in support is what's excessive.

	▲	JumpCrisscross 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> It was reasonable to arrest people who actually broke into the base and those who organized it. Going after those speaking in support is what's excessive Speaking out, yes. Helping organize? No. Where the UK took it over the top was in using terrorist statute to shut down the organisation. That was unnecessary. But if the organisation helped organise the action—and this is not yet proven—its assets should have been frozen while the organisation and its leaders are investigated. If the organisation were found to have knowingly aided and abetted the break-in, it should have been shut down. All of this could have been done using mostly civil and a little criminal law. None of it required terrorism laws.
	▲	masfuerte 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		> Also the whole thing moved incredibly quickly; it went from new organization to banned almost immediately. Are you sure? They were founded in 2020. You can argue that destroying property may be legitimate protest, but that is not all they did. In 2024 they used sledgehammers to destroy machinery in an Elbit factory. Again, arguably legitimate protest. But then they attacked police officers and security guards who came to investigate with those same sledgehammers. That is in no way legitimate. If the government was going to proscribe them for anything it should have been for that. The RAF thing was indeed bullshit. Anyway, it seems to me that to simultaneously believe that a) telling a group of people that they can't use a particular name is an unacceptable attack on our freedoms yet b) physically attacking people with sledgehammers is OK requires quite some mental gymnastics.

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subscribed 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The same PM who proscribed PA defended in court a woman who did exactly what PA was doing, painting warplanes in protest.

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mosura 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Exposing the military for being an inept paper tiger is a truly heinous crime.

	▲	ben_w 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I think it's general knowledge that the UK military is a paper tiger, I think Charlie Stross said something about it being enough to defend one small village or something like that (he occasionally comments on this site so may correct me). I think that damaging what little remains of its defences, which may exist mostly to keep the nukes safe so nobody tries anything, is still a really bad idea. Especially given that the US is increasingly unstable and seems like it may stop responding to calls from assistance from anyone else in NATO, and the UK isn't in the EU any more and therefore can't ask the entire EU for help either just the bits that are also in NATO. Theoretically the UK could also ask Canada for help, but right now it seems more likely that Canada will be asking all of NATO except for the USA for military aid to keep the USA out. (What strange days, to write that without it being fiction…)
	▲	bawolff 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Destroying military equipment neccesary for national defense is a good way to get in legal trouble in pretty much any country. They should consider themselves lucky they did it in an enlightened country like Britian. Many places in the world that would be a death sentence.

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Cyph0n 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So you understand that the proscription is the core problem, but in the same breath, still focus the blame on protestors for fighting this proscription?

By the way, in case you somehow overlooked it, the whole point of people protesting under the banner of Palestine Action is to protest the illegitimate proscription.

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oncallthrow 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

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cultofmetatron 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

then you haven't been paying attention. the UK is in fact arresting people for all sorts of speech online. the vast majority is not a call for violence at all.

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jabedude 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How many people would you guess were arrested last year for online posts?

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sys_64738 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or spending too much time in jail from speaking freely.

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PunchyHamster 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

compared to most countries that's correct

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kubb 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Parallel realities. Over here it seems like the US is a dystopia, with how hostile their leadership is to democratic institutions and how greatly it empowers oligarchs.

They think that European countries (or commonly just "Europe") are about to arrest all citizens for criticizing politicians. "Europe" must be saved from their leftist fascist regimes. For now using propaganda. Soon militarily.

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ThrowawayTestr 2 days ago | parent [-]

Didn't Germany just make it illegal to insult politicians?

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tormeh 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's illegal to insult anyone in Germany, and has been for a long time. Libel, slander, and insults are all criminal (not civil) offences. I know what you're thinking: "That sounds crazy" - Yeah, it kinda is. In practice this is rarely enforced, as the offended party must file a formal complaint and most people have better things to do.

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autoexec 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> "That sounds crazy" - Yeah, it kinda is. In practice this is rarely enforced

Generally, selective enforcement is itself a huge problem. That might not actually be an issue in this instance though if the only thing preventing enforcement is the lack of a formal complaint and assuming that the complaint process is easily accessible to everyone (not requiring money to file, and without other barriers that might prevent certain people from filing but not others). It's still a terrible idea to make it illegal to insult others, but "rarely enforced" may not be the red flag it usually is.

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tormeh 2 days ago | parent [-]

Well, time is money, right? If someone files a complaint and goes through with whatever proceedings ensue you can bet that it's not a single mom working a full-time job. For police officers, on the other hand, enforcing this law on behalf of themselves is part of their job. So in practice this law is grossly unfair. It does lead to a greater level of decorum in public debate than in most other countries, which is nice, but it's not a fair law by any means.

	▲	kubb 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		I think you're holding the German law to a much higher standard than many hold their legal systems. On the other side of the pond cases are routinely decided by who can afford the right lawyer or litigation costs. So yeah, it's very admirable that you want German law to be perfect, but you've gotta admit how it currently ranks up against real-world points of reference other than the ideal.

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Amezarak 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

German prosecutors actually did a bizarre and out-of-touch (for an American audience) interview with 60 Minutes recently where they proudly declare they're going to bring order to the Internet and how things like calling politicians "dicks"[1] is rightfully VERBOTEN.

> But it was a 2021 case involving a local politician named Andy Grote that captured the country's attention. Grote complained about a tweet, that called him a "pimmel," a German word for the male anatomy. That triggered a police raid and accusations of excessive censorship by the government. As prosecutors explained to us, in Germany, it's OK to debate politics online. But it can be a crime to call anyone a "pimmel," even a politician.

Naturally, it's necessary to arrest people for being mean and/or expressing VERBOTEN political beliefs on the Internet so that...uh...everyone will feel free to express their opinions.

> Josephine Ballon: This is not only a fear. It's already taking place, already half of the internet users in Germany are afraid to express their political opinion, and they rarely participate in public debates online anymore. Half of the internet users.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/policing-speech-online-germany-...

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tormeh 2 days ago | parent [-]

Germany does not protect free speech the way the US does. You're free to voice any opinion, but the exact wordings in which you are allowed to do it are restricted. You are allowed to say "I hate Merz" but not "Merz is a piece of garbage".

I'm not saying this is good, but it's not recent and it does not prevent free communication of ideas.

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pyuser583 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Is Germany consistent about this? Is it equally forbidden to say “Merz is a piece of garbage” and “Weidel is a piece of garbage?”

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istjohn 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can't expect people to express themselves freely when a single mistatement could land them in prison.

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tick_tock_tick 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> You're free to voice any opinion

What a bold lie. There are plenty of opinions that are literally illegal to voice such as Nazism.

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fao_ 2 days ago | parent [-]

Why do you want to voice or otherwise condone voicing Nazism?

	▲	tick_tock_tick 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		That's just the easiest example that no one is even going to try and dispute to prove them wrong.
	▲	pyuser583 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Why are you equating “Germany outlaws supporting Nazism” with supporting Nazism?

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Amezarak 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

As we have seen, it is very easy to declare certain beliefs beyond contestation and any disagreement with them as insulting/inciting hate/etc.

That's why freedom of speech must entail the freedom to say things people find offensive, or there's no free communication of ideas at all. The state and ruling elites will determine that there is a set of proscribed ideas and a set of approved ideas and yours fall into the wrong set.

Banning speech and ideas also accelerates extremist - Weimar had very strong hate speech laws and prosecuted and imprisoned Nazis many many times. [1] The Nazis turned around and used the same laws on their enemies. Then the Stasi with similar motives used similar means. Suppressing speech in the name of order seems to be a German cultural value.

[1] https://www.thefire.org/news/blogs/eternally-radical-idea/wo...

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tormeh 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is generally the mainstream take on it. These laws are not generally seen as good. However, if dictatorship comes back, the law is meaningless, so what a dictator would use a law for is a moot point.

As for whether it's ingrained in German culture, quite possibly! These laws originate from the 1500s.

	▲	Amezarak 10 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Dictators, despite the name, cannot do whatever they want. That’s even moreso the case with long democratic or republican histories and in large modern states with enormous political machineries. They require backing from large swaths of the population and have to subvert the existing institutions to their will, which requires a delicate hand. Already having a legal infrastructure and social expectation that offensive speech is criminal is an enormous help to dictators.

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kubb 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

“Country X should change it’s laws because Y” is a belief you can have even if Y is not shared by enough people in Germany to make that change.

Claiming that Germany recently introduced a law prohibiting criticism of politicians is an admission of belief in something demonstrably incompatible with reality.

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ThrowawayTestr a day ago | parent [-]

My mistake. My comment should have been "doesn't Germany have laws criminalizing the insulting of politicians?"

	▲	kubb a day ago \| parent [-]
		Still the answer would have been “no”. If you want to keep both narrative and truthfulness, you should ask “doesn’t Germany have laws criminalizing insults, and someone had to pay a fine after insulting a politician”. Still not very authoritarian on a global scale. We have countries where politicians are exempt from criminal prosecution via presidential pardons and countries that kill dissidents. These countries form alliances and align their foreign policy.

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chihuahua 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

No, that has been illegal for a long time.

It's being enforced more these days, perhaps because social media makes it more tempting and easier to insult politicians in a manner where it can be easily detected. In the old days, you'd have to hand out flyers or get your letter to the editor published in a newspaper, in order to insult politicians where they could notice, and even then there was no way to automatically detect it. But when people insult politicians on social media, it's an extremely low bar for the effort required, both to do it, and to detect it.

If someone were to insult me on social media, I'd never know about it, because I'm not constantly monitoring Twitter. But some politicians pay some agency to constantly monitor Twitter etc, and then they file complaints about everyone they catch in the act, and then the jackbooted police kick down the perpetrators' doors and confiscate their phones and computers.

	▲	Ferret7446 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Are these adults? This level of sensitivity is what I'd expect from a toddler. We tell them to ignore it and usually/hopefully they grow up into healthy adults that don't mind insults from strangers.

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varispeed 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don't forget that Digital ID really has been pushed by Labour after a meeting with Larry Fink and BlackRock. This is how democracy gets bypassed by the wealthy and in functioning country it should result in the entire government going to prison. Unfortunately MI5 that is in charge of that is asleep at the wheel - probably corrupt themselves.

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u_sama 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wait are you baazaa9, I love your writings and specially your analysis of bureaucracy

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anthem2025 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

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TacticalCoder 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

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goobatrooba 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

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nine_k 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Certainly, calling the UK "ultra-authoritarian" is incorrect. But the point about attempts of completely deanonymizing Internet access is still important.

The inability of the government to know everything about its citizens is an important check that prevents it from slipping towards illiberal, even if prosperous, system, like that in mainland China, or Singapore.

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2 days ago | parent | next [-]

[deleted]

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subscribed 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

OK, but the order of "importance", as stated by the government, was:

- easier access to the services - remember this is supposed to be STRICTLY digital only, so presumably on par with government gateway ID? - control of illegal immigration - with scale of the problem wildly blow out of proportion - presumably by helping control the border? how? And ostensibly by making impossible to work without right - which is a check mandatory already based on the existing digital-only online check -- once again fake non-solution

Certainly after experiencing multiple problems with the existing eVisa (Digital only) and reading multiple horror stories of faults and errors it proves to me the government is NOT taking ANY of the best practices into consideration while unfairly using parallel to the (like Estonian ID)

The only thing it would do is to cut the fraud a bit, but the impact would once again be limited because it would be a physical document (which, I must repeat from the abundance of caution, might bear a certificate or a chip that makes it incredibly hard to make a fake version of it).

I'm sorry but the government made it a fight for the souls of the rightwing voters once again, it didn't show the awesome project. It showed the stick it want to introduce to conduct the same checks it runs already :)

Just VERIFY and examine their claims. It's been discussed so many times, not only on HN.

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pydry 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>Certainly, calling the UK "ultra-authoritarian" is incorrect.

It's Russia level. They're prosecuting people for holding up signs protesting a genocide.

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JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent [-]

> They're prosecuting people for holding up signs

Source?

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subscribed 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

They also hold people arrested for opposing genocide on remand without trial for months already.

For holding rhe sign.

The famously authoritarian police threatening arrest for an attempt to hold an EMPTY placard.

Or arresting for a shirt with "Plasticine Action".

Or locking in a prison for several years for zoom call in which they planned nonviolent protest (blocking the motorway).

We could do it for months.

	▲	nine_k 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Arresting a person for holding a blank placard would indeed be Russia-level oppression. The person in question was not arrested, but threatened to be arrested if he wrote a particular phrase on it [1]. Not great at all, but still no cigar. A man wearing the "Plasticine Action" T-shirt was indeed arrested [2]. That was extra absurd because the protest was against AI-generated animation, not about a political cause. All in all, quite bad :( [1]: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/police-arrest-blank-paper... [2]: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/palestine-action...

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pydry 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

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JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, that’s dumb. Curious what they were charged with, e.g. if they were told to disperse and didn’t, and if the charges will stick.

As dumb as it may be, you should be free-in a democracy, with limited exceptions—to verbalize support for a foreign or even domestic terrorist organization as long as you aren’t materially aiding it.

Is “supporting” defined in the UK Terrorist Act?

	▲	pydry 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Spray painting a panzer tank in 1939 with "free the jews" would have been a pretty much identical form of "terrorism". Nobody killed, no real damage done. Obviously the Nazis back then would agree with modern far right that defacing weapons used to commit genocide fits the definition of terrorism and that voicing support for such a crime demands prison time. And, modern liberals have always had an easier relationship with the far right than they have had with free speech.

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YurgenJurgensen 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

When the ratchet only goes in one direction, it doesn’t matter that each click isn’t the worst thing ever, it only matters where it’s headed.

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exasperaited 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Keep in mind the UK already arrests and imprisons vast numbers of people for speech offences

No it fucking doesn’t.

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andyjohnson0 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Keep in mind the UK already arrests and imprisons vast numbers of people for speech offences.

Vast? No, they really don't.

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elephant81 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

How would you argue that more than one arrest is fair in a modern democracy? Can you even point to an arrest where it passes the pub test?

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oncallthrow 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is tens of thousands vast enough for you?

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cortic 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

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phatfish 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's only scary to Americans (maybe reaching hard because of Trump?) and those who live off Twitter and Daily Mail headlines. For the rest us it's marginally better than when the crazies where screwing us over with Brexit.

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iLoveOncall 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The UK is actually a scary place right now, if you are paying attention..

It has been the most authoritarian country in the West for decades already, this is nothing new.

British people are the most apathetic people in the world, so it's really easy to abuse them.

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cortic 2 days ago | parent [-]

>the most authoritarian country in the West

Australia and the US are more authoritarian in specific areas e.g. censorship and taxation respectively.. but overall, yes, the UK is worse.

>British people are the most apathetic

I'm not sure that's fair, our culture looks apathetic from abroad, but like other countries we care deeply about what our media tell us to care about.

	▲	iLoveOncall 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		> our culture looks apathetic from abroad I live in the UK, and have lived in multiple other western countries before. British people absolutely ARE apathetic.

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iamacyborg 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> 12,000 arrests per year

Arrested is not the same thing as being charged. The latter is what would lead to a trial.

> So they are currently trying to get rid of juries, which they will do

Huh

> a leader that has styled himself as a more extreme Nigel Farage

I’m sorry, what?

> The UK is actually a scary place right now

It is?

	▲	everfrustrated 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		>Arrested is not the same thing as being charged. The latter is what would lead to a trial. Often the entire point of the arrest is to get restrictive and onerous bail conditions imposed on people. Frequently restricting their speech on social media by threat of imprisonment for violating their bail conditions. That the charges are later dropped isn't the point.
	▲	tick_tock_tick 2 days ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		Are you just ignorant or trying to antagonize. What's the point of posting worthless non rebuttals to easily provable facts.
	▲	cortic 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		>Huh https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn5lxg2l0lqo >I’m sorry, what? Take the online protection act for an example, Nigel Farage though it went too far, Keir Starmer wanted to include a ban on VPNs... >it is? If you have been paying attention, yes.