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postit 5 hours ago

One thing I’ve learned in my 25+ year career is that if you don't own your narrative and your work, someone else will claim it - especially in corporate America.

I have lost count of the brilliant engineers who were passed over for credit simply because someone less technically capable, but extremely popular, pulled the strings to steal the spotlight.

You don't necessarily need to be in the spotlight, but you do need to leave a paper trail. Claim your work and inventions both internally and externally. You don't need to be a 'LinkedIn thought leader' to do this, just submit talks to conferences and find peers at other companies who understand the difference between those who build and those who only talk about building.

WhyOhWhyQ 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's how it works for every organization. Not just corporate America. Want to play on the varsity baseball team? Better be popular with the coaches and other players. Otherwise you're on the bench keeping score. Want to go to Harvard grad school? Better be the right kind of popular. Want to be celebrated in machine learning? Better be popular by doing shallow work on lots of projects. The whole world is a scam, and the scammers always win.

SoftTalker 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's an exception though if you're truly good. If you can hit home runs or throw a baseball with laser accuracy and speed you will be on the varsity team even if you're an introverted social misfit. You might not be team captain but bottom line is the coach wants players who can win games, not be prom king.

marcinzm 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It’s not a scam. It’s a system that exists for people and made by people. Period. Money, outcomes and so on only have value because people assign them value. If you remove people then what you do has no value or concept of value. Life is not some video game with an omniscient score counter. Other people are the score counter.

QuantumFunnel 3 hours ago | parent [-]

People are terrible at keeping score for others, because they're usually only paying attention to themselves

marcinzm 2 hours ago | parent [-]

There is no objective score and thus people are perfect at it since the score is by definition what other people think it is. Like the value of money or stocks. Once you realize that a lot of life is significantly less frustrating.

thwarted 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sometimes achievements speak for themselves and provide the marketing for the actor. But that requires both the achievement to be extremely outsized, so as not to get lost in the noise, and very obviously the result of a singular actor. Only one person can step up to the plate and swing the bat.

WhyOhWhyQ 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Where I went to school the coach distributed chewing tobacco to players he liked and bullied the nerds. The black kid who was extremely athletic got bullied and switched schools. The starting pitcher was an idiot who drove a big truck, and was not especially talented.

SoftTalker 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah I'm assuming the coach is a normal person who's goal is to build a team and win. If his goal as an adult is to have a lot of teenagers for friends because he himself is still stuck in that mentality, then there's not much you can do but get away.

raw_anon_1111 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But you will never make it to the MLB if you are the best baseball player in the MiddleOfNowhere Nebraska and no one knows you exist

YetAnotherNick 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Depends. Look at the graph of month year of professional hockey player[1]. Player born in first quarter is twice as more likely to be in pro leagues than last quarter. Month of birth's only effect is that it gives 0.5 year extra during junior year to be in spotlight. It shouldn't affect player's performance in any other way. And the effect persists for decades.

If you get supported initially when you aren't the best, the effect of the small support can make you much better player.

[1]: https://www.lockhartjosh.ca/2017/11/hockey-birth-month-why-i...

SoftTalker 2 hours ago | parent [-]

In the US, USA Hockey (by far the biggest youth hockey organization) groups players by birth year. So if you are born late in the year, you are among the youngest players on your team. You tend to be smaller, and less experienced, and unless you are exceptional you tend to play less. This impacts you from your first youth teams up until high-school.

mh2266 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don’t think being popular with the players is entirely irrelevant for players in team sports. Locker room cohesion matters.

TimByte 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But calling the whole world a scam feels like letting the worst parts define the whole yet it can feel like the game is rigged in favor of the loudest or most connected

micromacrofoot 4 hours ago | parent [-]

It is a scam, it's objective. If you live in ignorance of this you will eventually be taken advantage of. There is nowhere on the planet you can live where you can take people or systems of people at their word.

venturecruelty 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sorry, but this feels like a very American take. There are places in the world that still have high social cohesion and high trust. Not everyone is out to get you everywhere all the time, just in societies which encourage that sort of relating to others.

micromacrofoot 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Which one would you recommend? because AFAIK most of them are consuming the American products that are constantly scamming you... I've experienced this as a resident of the EU as well.

fragmede 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If it's only an eventuality, then doesn't that imply that you can mostly take people at their word? If you do nine deals, and get scammed on the the tenth, then doesn't that mean those first nine people are honest and could be taken at their word?

micromacrofoot 3 hours ago | parent [-]

lol no the eventuality is because a lot of people are just too poor to even be allowed to engage in deals — they're largely living in faceless systems where they're pre-scammed by faceless corporations

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zeroonetwothree 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It works that way sometimes but I have found that merit and skill does get rewarded. The best case is when you have both.

landedgentry 3 hours ago | parent [-]

When merit is easy to define and measure. I have a lot more respect for athletes than tech leaders.

proc0 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is one of the main reasons I'm trying to pivot away from a career inside a corporate environment. There is too much politics. I wish it was just do the work and go home, and get rewarded for the work that was completed, but instead there is a huge self-promotion (as in marketing) component. If that's what it takes I might as well do something that I own and control. If I'm going to need to worry about how to market my own work then I might as well try and at least not have a boss. I always thought the point of being an employee and having a limited paycheck meant that you don't worry about this things. That's the fair tradeoff.

goalieca 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There’s too much emphasis on career growth into leadership. I know so many programmers who simply want to solve the trickiest of technical problems, do good work they can feel proud of, and go home to their families. They want stability more than anything.

TimTheTinker 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There are rare software companies where this is exactly what programmers do. The pay is lower than at FAANG & SV/LA/NYC startups, but work-life balance is great, stability is great, and most of all they get to just focus on doing great work. It's not about making quarterly goals, it's about stewarding (or perhaps gardening) a software project for many years. Engineers grow a lot from all the deep, focused feature work and problem solving.

I worked at such a place for 15 years. The downsides for me were lower pay, no equity, and not getting broad industry experience. I ended up leaving, and I now make a lot more money, but I do miss it.

zem 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

the saddest thing is that it used to be possible to do it at at least some of the megacorps too. "senior engineer" (one level below staff) was widely accepted as an "I have reached as high as I want to in my career, and just want to work on interesting problems now", you would basically never get a raise other than cost-of-living but you could do your work and go home and live your life too. that's still doable to an extent but the recurring layoffs have added a measure of precarity to the whole situation so now you have to care more about all the self promotion and "being seen to be doing something" aspects of the job a lot more than you used to.

Inityx an hour ago | parent [-]

Do they even do cost-of-living raises anymore? When I was at FAANG, my raises in the same role didn't even match inflation.

zem 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

good point, it was often less than inflation, so a very nominal sort of raise

mh2266 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Google lets people stay at L4 forever and Meta does at L5 with no expectation of further growth.

Yes the expectations are probably still higher, but these companies don’t expect everyone to grow past “mostly self-sufficient engineer” as the parent comment suggests, and for people that do want to do that there’s a full non-management path to director-equivalent IC levels. My impression is that small companies are more likely to treat management as a promotion rather than as a lateral move to a different track (whenever I hear “promoted to manager” I kinda shudder)

cweld510 an hour ago | parent [-]

Depends on the team — managing can be quite a bit more scope than being a senior IC, depending on expectations for that role. You have broader ownership of technical outcomes over time, even aside from the extra responsibility for growing a team. Managers have all the responsibility of a senior engineer plus more. In that way manager feels to me like a clear promotion to me. Manager vs staff eng, maybe not though.

mh2266 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

Management not being a promotion doesn’t mean that managers aren’t (usually—I’ve both been at equal and higher levels than my managers at times) higher levels than their reports. It means that switching to a management role from IC is never a promotion itself (ie always L6 -> M1 in Google/Meta levels) and it never comes with any difference in compensation.

tayo42 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What interesting problems have you solved recently?

TimTheTinker an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Shipping the frontend for features in a core product area on a large team, just like a lot of other devs here :)

To go into specifics of actual problems solved and do so intelligibly, I'd have to provide specific context, which I'm not comfortable doing here.

It's a lot easier to describe "interesting problems solved" using less identifiable (and more generally interesting) details if one is in platform/infra and/or operating at a Staff+ level -- both of which I have been in the past (and loved it), but am not at the moment.

LtWorf 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Most people are under NDAs

twojacobtwo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm pretty sure no one is going to be hunting down NDA infractions on HN unless the poster is silly enough to give specifics about the workplace and time at which they solved the problem. If it takes some kind of investigative work to piece together the most basic details, I think that's within the terms of most NDAs anyway.

LtWorf 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think no equity isn't necessarily worse than equity followed by bankruptcy :D

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mh2266 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Google’s terminal level is one past new grad and it has a full parallel non-management IC track, I don’t think that they’re pushing people that hard into leadership roles.

raw_anon_1111 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And then what happens when you are looking for your next job and you get a behavioral interview question and all you can say is “I pulled Jira tickets off the board for a decade”?

proc0 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's precisely why programmers become programmers. It baffles me that tech careers put most on a leadership track when people study CS for many years for a reason. Why would I want to throw those technical skills away.

venturecruelty 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You mean if everyone works really hard, we can't all be CEOs? :(

jebarker 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

Anyone can be a CEO, just start a company.

venturecruelty 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

So we don't need anyone to teach or clean toilets? We can all work our way up and be fabulously rich?

jebarker 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm not sure how you got that from my comment. CEO is a job title that is easy to get, that was my only point.

pixl97 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>meant that you don't worry about this things

Not at all, that was a confused expectation.

The problem here, at least I think, is you may be very unaware of the expectations of running ones own business. There are far more politics, more being cutthroat, tons of regulations you must be aware of that come with potential later penalties if you are not, legal threats, and more.

proc0 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I can see that, but then what's really broken is the education system. If what you say is true that means there is no such thing as being a specialist, at least not anymore, yet almost all universities train people to be specialists. Either industry should stop looking at academic degrees completely or schools should start teaching business first, and technical knowledge second, for most degrees (with exception of academia and research).

pixl97 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

This is somewhat correct, and somewhat not correct.

The 'system' needs the following.

People that are unaware of the system, that do the work, think it's a mediocrity, and don't play the game.

Less people that play the game and reap all the rewards for doing the work without actually doing the work.

The problem is once too many people play the game instead of doing the work the entire system falls apart.

smj-edison 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My brother is studying economics right now, and he said everyone could use some basic economics knowledge, because getting an intuition for how markets work really helps you as you're looking for jobs and navigating around companies. Maybe business knowledge is better, but I'm personally biased towards the empiricism of economics :) You're onto something though about the need for awareness of how companies think and work.

jeffwass 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

To be fair, this issue isn’t endemic only to big companies. I’ve seen similar even in academia, some people just know how to “play the game” and play it very well.

It really depends on the culture of where you are, which can even vary team by team in the same org.

nostrademons 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So I'm not sure about this, particularly in the context of this article. I think it definitely applies to the splashy, Spotlight, one-off projects that will make a career with one shot. But a lot of careers aren't made that way, and this article is specifically talking about the ones that aren't.

I've found that trust is a currency in a corporate environment, possibly the most important one. And trust is built over time. If you work behind the scenes to ensure the success of a project but don't claim it, there's a decent chance somebody else will, and maybe it'll appear in their promo packet. But if you are in the vicinity of enough successful projects, over a long period of time, there's a good chance that leadership will notice that the common element is you. And in the process you'll built up a good reputation and network, so even if leadership gets replaced there are lots of other people that want to work with you. Promotions come slower at first, but they eventually catch up since you don't need to suffer the resets of failed projects and new roles.

1dom 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> But if you are in the vicinity of enough successful projects, over a long period of time, there's a good chance that leadership will notice that the common element is you.

This is only true if average tenure of leadership and management is more than a couple of years.

rockinghigh 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

As you suggested, promotions tend to come more slowly. You're also likely to hit a lower ceiling than someone who is better at promoting their work.

notarobot123 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's pretty demoralizing to realize that appearances matter more than merit in careers/politics/dating/business/etc. The pragmatic approach is to not give up on merit but not neglect appearances either.

Still, the idealist in me hates this. It feels like quality should win out over advertising yet it rarely does in the grand scheme of things.

lotsofpulp 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That is because time and energy are limited resources, and measuring merit accurately is very costly. Measuring appearance is far less costly, and might serve as an acceptable proxy. And often times it might not.

TimByte 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You don't have to self-promote aggressively, but you do have to advocate for your work

lumost 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

this is the biggest benefit of 1:1's in my opinion.

Often, individuals can claim credit simply by being first and loudest. For example, and individual can highlight a problem area that someone is already working on in the team and loudly talk about the flaws in the current approach and how they will solve it. The individual need not actually solve the task if the first person finishes - but now the success is subconsciously attributed to the thought leadership/approach of the new individual.

Good managers/leadership teams have mechanisms to limit this type of strategy, but it requires them to talk to everyone on the team - listen for unsaid feedback and look at hard artifacts. Otherwise you quickly have a team of people who are great at nothing more than talking about problems and dreaming of solutions.

venturecruelty 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Personally, I don't care. Pay me and leave me the hell alone. We get 80 short years on this beautiful blue marble, if we're exceedingly lucky, and I refuse to spend one red second of that playing stupid games to excel in a sclerotic economic system that didn't even exist until very recently.

So I'm going to continue to try to grind it out as best as I can, while spending time on the things that actually matter: music, art, making delicious food for me and my friends, my hobbies, my family, my local community. Corporate America is bereft of joy and meaning anyway. Maybe it makes me some sort of sucker, but I don't care. I'd rather live.

mbajkowski 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Seems to me you have your Life Razor, per Sahil Bloom, pretty much in place for your current stage in life

cactus2093 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've always kind of expected it to work this way, with people being cutthroat and stealing credit for other people's work.

What I have seen in reality is a lot more nuanced. There are a lot of good ideas that will simply die if nobody pitches them the right way, i.e. if no one gets the rest of the team/org/company to understand and agree that it solves an important problem.

There are also very few novel ideas in a mature business or technology space. Every time I think I've come up with one, I search the internal company docs and often someone had mentioned the same thing 5 years ago in some long-forgotten design doc or something.

I've come to realize that the hard thing and the bottleneck for a good idea to have real impact is not the idea itself or the execution, it's pulling the right strings to make space for the idea and get it accepted. At a small scale, in your own team or ownership domain, this isn't necessary and you can just build things and let the results speak for themselves. But the amount of impact that thing has on the broader company will be limited if you don't pull the strings the right way.

Some people despise this idea and in that case, a big company is probably not the right place for you. But most of the cases I've seen of "brilliant engineers passed over for credit" were people not realizing and not doing this necessary part of the job. If someone else steps in and gets the idea more widely recognized after you had let it stall and moved onto the next thing, then 1. usually you do still some partial recognition for it so it's a win/win and 2. the other person is not really stealing credit, because if they had done nothing the idea would have just died and you wouldn't have gotten credit anyway.

reactordev 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It shouldn’t be this way. Merit should be the metric. But it’s true. No matter how good or bad your numbers are, if Bob likes you, you’re good.

Keep polishing those soft skills and if you have a face only your mother would love, be a writer… but get your voice out there.

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alephnerd 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can own the narrative while also not being in the spotlight.

At the end of the day, only a handful of stakeholders matter in any organization. So long as you can promote you and your team's initiatives to your manager, your skip manager, and a couple key members of Product, Sales, Customer Success, and Leadership - your place is secure.

In fact, in most cases I would say a mass spotlight is actually a net negative, because it only increases the risk that someone might view you as a potential competitor for either budget or responsibility.

So long as you remain aligned to the business's stated goals for the year and can communicate that to the relevant subsegment of stakeholders, a massive spotlight is unnecessary.