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CodeMage 7 hours ago

From the post: "The middle manager that doesn't perform any useful work is a fun stereotype, but I also think it's a good target to aim for."

This is the kind of argument that makes people come up with middle manager stereotypes in the first place. In fact, the whole post is a great example of why middle manager stereotypes exist: it starts with a straw man argument and comes up with a "better alternative" that makes life easier for the manager, regardless of what the manager's reports really need.

I've seen this whole "I will empower you to do everything on your own" principle in action and it's exhausting. Especially when the word "empower" is a used as a euphemism for "have you take on additional responsibilities".

Look, boss, sometimes empowering me is just what I need, but sometimes I need you to solve a specific problem for me, so I can keep solving all the other problems I already have on my plate.

nlawalker 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

When I was a manager I had to take a training based on the book "The Coaching Habit." It left me really sour on the role, and explained some of the behavior of previous managers of mine that I least appreciated, specifically that their approach to management seemed to be to just get me to articulate and explain my problems over and over until I somehow rubber-ducked myself into solving them myself. When that didn't work, it transitioned to "so how can I help?", which would again eventually be turned around into "now you know how to go help yourself", no matter how direct the request was or how much it really needed management authority behind it.

I get that the point of the strategy is to help people with strong director-style personalities to listen and empathize a bit more, but in my experience it ended up being implemented as "my responsibility to my reports is to listen and nod."

skeeter2020 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Three buckets of "management":

1. Mentoring: "this is what I did in a similar situation..." - overused and often not as similar or detailed as needed.

2. Coaching: "what do you think?" valuable for longer term development that depends on deeper thought and introspection; Your immediate problems a generally neither of these.

3. Sponsoring: "You mentioned you're looking for X and I heard about a new project where you could learn... want me to connect you?" under-used by managers, super valuable but harder to scale & can be hit/miss.

What your ICs actually need a lot of the time: "solve this problem for me." Most managers can't do this, which is why they became managers. The good ones combine their own skills with 1-3 above to unblock and DON'T push it back on the requestor.

jvanderbot an hour ago | parent [-]

"Can't" is not why people become managers.

At least be thoughtful and say "Won't" (because they prefer management)

harrall 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My biggest complaint about some people is that they measure success by the act of doing and rarely by the result.

If I help someone, I am checking if you no longer need help. If I say I’m going to be there at a certain time, I remember every time I’m late. If I do laundry a certain way so I won’t lose a sock, I make sure I haven’t lost a sock. When I do something, my brain replays me “Oh the last time you did this, you made this mistake. Do you want to try it a different way?”

People read how you are “supposed to do things” and feel good when they do it. If you switch to measuring your work by your result, you learn way faster and also get really good at things.

ToucanLoucan an hour ago | parent [-]

You've put into excellent words what I have done my whole life. Intent matters but it isn't sufficient. If you "meant to be on time" but weren't, you failed. Simple as. You don't need to lash yourself about it but too many folk are ready to give themselves a pat on the back for good intentions, or trying but failing, etc.

If you say you're gonna be somewhere, show the fuck up. Anything short is a miss. Failing to account for that makes you an asshole, IMO.

gretch 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

If you’re interested in the subject and want to read more, the concept is commonly called “outcome oriented” vs “process oriented”.

A LOT of workplace conflict arises out of outcome oriented ppl having to work with process oriented people.

psunavy03 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a main reason why Agile Coaches often end up with such a bad rap, and the role is on the outs.

They're supposed to be people who can work with leadership to ensure the right people are on the right teams working on the right stuff at the right time. And turn around and be able to help teams untangle their QA and CI/CD processes to speed delivery.

Instead, the damn "life coaches" got their foot in the door and started infecting everything. The only time "coaching" is a valid approach is when both you and a coachee agree that the person has what they need to solve the issue and just needs a sounding board or a rubber duck. There's nothing more infuriating that needing help solving a problem and being told "well how would YOU solve the problem?" Idiot, if I knew that, I wouldn't be asking!

BobaFloutist 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Also makes for a poor metaphor, because coaches in sports are supposed to be absolute experts in absolutely everything about the sport without the physical ability to implement it.

Imagine if a football player told their coach "I'm not sure how to deal with this specific opponent's strategy" and the coach was like "Well have you tried thinking about it more?"

skeeter2020 2 hours ago | parent [-]

there are lots of sports coaches that were not good players, but they are absolute experts in their sport. For some reason we've let agile/life coaches convince us that "management" is the event and someone with customer service management experience has a lot to say about software development management. Ted Lasso is a great show, but it's not gonna happen IRL.

Though the Diamond Dogs would be a great peer group for Engineering Managers...

https://larahogan.me/blog/manager-voltron/

eecc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So basically a crash course in psychoanalysis?

bsoles 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The "required" reading for newly minted managers in my $billion company was/is this shit called "One Minute Manager": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_One_Minute_Manager, including "one minute reprimands" as if employees are children. Happily, I am no longer a manager.

citizenpaul 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> "The Coaching Habit."

Oh wow. This comment just completely explained the worst "manager" I ever had. They must have been using this terrible method.

>no matter how direct the request was or how much it really needed management authority behind it.

They nearly drove me insane with this circular cycle. It was the only job I ever walked out on. I emailed on a Sunday night that I would not be returning to the office after a particularly terrible cycle of this nonsense.

To be clear I am not a "needy" employee. When I ask a manager for something it is because I do not have the authority do the thing.

pyrolistical 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Tell the manager you are assuming their authority.

You will force the answer out of them either way

hyperhello 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

This is really how it’s done. Don’t go over their head; go under their boss’s.

jf22 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One of my worst job experiences was when I depended on a colleague who wouldn't deliver. Any feedback or conversations with that colleague mostly resulted in tantrums and empty promises.

The lack of delivery severely harmed the services I provided to the company and to external users, ruined team morale, and was a huge source of stress.

My boss always turned the problem back on me, despite him also being my colleague's boss.

I tried everything I could for 18 months and had extensive documentation of all my attempts, sometimes working in parallel with my boss or using his recommendations.

Still, the problems persisted and every time I brought it up with my boss it was as if he was oblivious to the ongoing saga. I want to HR and over his head about it and he always fed me shit about "empowerment" and "growth."

Yeah, I was empowered to interview with other company's and grew into other new roles.

cj 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're describing one end of an extreme.

The opposite extreme is you have someone on your team who is only able to resolve conflicts by having their boss intervene.

E.g. you leave some critical feedback in a PR review. The author of the PR doesn't like your comments, so they tell your mutual boss, then your boss comes to you to ask why you left the comments in the PR, instead of the author coming to you directly.

Obviously there are cases where it's appropriate for you and a coworker to address a problem directly with each other. And there are cases where it makes more sense for your boss to intervene.

The problem is the culture at some jobs gravitate towards either end of the extreme. The ideal is somewhere in the middle. A good manager will find that balance.

jjk166 an hour ago | parent [-]

> The opposite extreme is you have someone on your team who is only able to resolve conflicts by having their boss intervene.

What's wrong with that? Resolving conflicts is the boss' job. So long as the team mate is doing their actual job appropriately, that's all that matters.

> E.g. you leave some critical feedback in a PR review. The author of the PR doesn't like your comments, so they tell your mutual boss, then your boss comes to you to ask why you left the comments in the PR, instead of the author coming to you directly.

The author should not be coming to you directly, going through the boss is the appropriate route. If the author's complaints were unreasonable, it should be the boss telling them that, not you. If your boss is coming to you, it means they feel the author's complaints are at least partially valid, and you should be hearing that from your boss, not the author.

It's not necessarily a bad thing if people bypass the manager to settle things directly, so long as both parties are comfortable with that, but it's not a happy medium.

chowells 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

Handling negative feedback on a PR is a necessary skill for a developer. A manager should only get involved if it becomes hostile. Negative is very far from hostile.

parliament32 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There's a good chance he was an executive's nephew or some other protected class.

FuriouslyAdrift 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you ever want to quickly destroy an organization, just separate the ability to control with the responsibility to control.

Burnout, infighting, and chaos will ensue.

indymike 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Control, responsibility and accountability have to align.

* You should only be accountable for what you are responsible for.

* You should only be responsible for what you have control of.

Bad managers hate this structure because in makes them accountable for themselves and their subordinates and prevents deflection of blame to low level employees.

cracki 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Please compare and contrast "accountability" and "responsibility".

Spivak 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Responsibility without accountability is that it's your job to make sure something gets done but you don't face any real consequences for not doing it.

Accountability without responsibility is "being the final desk." Leadership is usually in this position where they aren't responsible for designing the product but they are accountable if it doesn't happen and they miss targets.

lowboy 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Being responsible for something while having little/no control is so demoralizing & infuriating.

nlawalker 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Ah yes, the need for "influence without authority", i.e. "the real challenge of this project is that you have been organizationally set up to fail, and we expect you to find a way to succeed in spite of that."

jghn 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This is what removed any lingering thoughts I had about moving up the corporate ladder. If in order to succeed I either need to do certain things or at least get other groups to do those things, and if I'm not allowed to do those things, and if no other group is willing to do those things, and if no one above me is going to change the circumstances, why on earth would anyone think this could be successful?

stego-tech 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

As someone once again in such a role, it really is, and it never gets easier.

exogenousdata 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is a wonderful, succinct way of capturing this danger to businesses as they grow & jump the gap!

skeeter2020 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> but sometimes I need you to solve a specific problem for me, so I can keep solving all the other problems I already have on my plate.

Managers definitely need to contribute and this is a great way to do so, and also build credibility with your team. You don't get the fun or deep technical problems; that's not your job, but you can fulfill whatever transparent leadership is (I think?) by protecting your team from the noise (i.e. the shit umbrella) and contributing in a supporting role (the servant part). The hard / tiring thing is doing this consistently and repeatedly.

ryoshu 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The reward is helping people hone their craft and grow in their careers. Being a shit shield sucks, but the trade-off is worth it.

reactordev 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It was clear the author never actually performed servant leadership. If they did, they would be writing a different article about how much work they did to support their team instead of “how much lack of work can I get away with”. They sounded like an absent manager.

Spooky23 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In my experience, leadership is the ability to guide and direct, power is the ability to influence and control. Leaders wield implicit power. Officers of the company wield explicit power.

I see management in the ideal case of finding leaders and equipping them with organizational authority. That's often not what happens, and when you fuck up, the tail wags the dog, and you give empty suits power they can't control. It's one of the reasons "MBA" managers often are perceived as shitty - they lack domain knowledge, have mediocre finance/accounting skills and are invested with lots of power.

As a senior leader in a tech org, my value is deep understanding of the business and the engineering landscape broadly, along with deep knowledge in a few verticals. My goal every day is to plan and articulate what we need to do, make sure my teams have what they need, and help "litigate" disputes and problems. "Agile" religious adherents, project and program managers are not leaders.

Engineers in general are terrible at organizing people, and tend to create little fiefdoms of straw bosses. When I look for directors and managers, I'm looking for the kids who played Civ and SimCity who aren't literalists.

SoftTalker 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For me the worst of this is organizations where employees have to write their own performance reviews. Eff that. You're the boss, you tell me how I'm doing. If there's one thing a manager should be accountable for it is the development and evaluation of the people the manager is responsible for.

moogleii 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It isn't the best written piece, but your snippet feels taken grossly out of context. The rest of it:

"A common response is to invent new work, ask for status reports, and add bureaucracy. A better response is to go back to working on technical problems. This keeps the manager’s skills fresh and gets them more respect from their reports. The manager should turn into a high-powered spare worker, rather than a papersshuffler."

While being an IC and a manager is quite challenging, I think it's worth discussing the various permutations of it (only one of which is what the author has written about). It can lead to all sorts of systems (round robin leadership within a team being probably one of the most experimental). But for a more conservative, traditional system, there are many examples, e.g. Apple leadership coming out of former ICs.

HWR_14 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The biggest issue in the post is "creates direct links between supply and demand". One of the more important things to do as a manager is sit in hours of meetings so your reports can get a fifteen minute synopsis about the decisions made. And represent your reports in those meetings.

dasil003 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That entire paragraph is a string of poorly-articultated, cringeworthy sentences. In fact the whole article seems to be a series of strawmen set up on the basis of oddly specific and naive interpretations of management concepts like "servant leadership". There's basically nothing in here that I would agree with as a blanket statement without a lot of company and org-specific provisos.

All that said, to be charitable, I think what the author meant to express is that you don't want to make yourself a bottleneck as a manager, which is a common failure mode for newly converted IC to junior manager. Where he goes off the rails in the most tone-deaf way is describing that as "not doing useful work". As a manager your work is constantly observing what people are doing, staying the hell out of the way when things are working, and leaning in when things are not going well from a team and outcomes perspective. Doing that well is incredibly challenging and important work.

brabel 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> All that said, to be charitable, I think what the author meant to express is that you don't want to make yourself a bottleneck as a manager,

That's not being charitable, that's just having basic interpretation skills of the very next sentence of the article.

dasil003 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

Huh? The next sentence is: "The difference lies in what to do once one has rendered oneself redundant."

zoeysmithe 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yep, this is just a ploy to create a PMC that actually has no skill workers in it. You just shove MBAs, nepos, etc into these roles and just have them gobble up some managerial course which is often nothing but: delegate, CYA, and 'manage expectations.'

I dont think we need to go back to the old ideas of The Manager who is Above It All and Doesn't Get Their Hands Dirty. At least at middle levels.

Forgeties79 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Look, boss, sometimes empowering me is just what I need, but sometimes I need you to solve a specific problem for me, so I can keep solving all the other problems I already have on my plate.

One of the reasons I really like my current manager is he spends a lot more time reminding us he can/offering to "take care of any blockers." His whole management style can be summed up as "Why is it blocked? Ok, leave it to me." Frankly I love it. If it's something we should take care of he's very specific about it too.

rootnod3 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My first manager at Amazon was like that. Loved him to pieces. He didn't micro-manage, he didn't even fully care about the scrum. Just said "I can see the ticket status myself. If you are blocked by something, need any info or resource, I'll hunt it down for you, otherwise you keep cooking".

phil21 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I often describe myself as a bulldozer for my team. My job is to lay out clear expectations, do my best to steady the course free of external chaos, and bulldoze a clear path for the team to get stuff done.

eithed 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Agree and follow this principle to certain degree, however there are caveats here - something being a blocker shouldn't prevent you from trying to resolve the blockers by yourself or work with your boss to resolve them ie - "hey boss, I'm blocked with task A with refactor of this code; are you happy for me to do XYZ?". Then I have options to say: "yes! excellent! go ahead!" or "no, we need to do ASD here" or "no, we cannot do XYZ right now". If every time people encountering blockers would come to me to resolve them, or wait until they're resolved I'd not get anything done. On the flipside, if every time a blocker is encountered people were to handle it themselves, then a) it might not align with my vision on what actually needs to be done here b) I'm blindsighted with what was actually done.

Clear boundaries and strategies eliminate these caveats = team members are aligned on what they can make decision for and general direction the team is heading towards.

Forgeties79 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah like I said if we are straying in to over-reliance/not really doing our job, he clearly lays out what to do and says "there go take care of it" a few times. He does a good job of not fostering a culture of constantly playing CYA

bena 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Reminds me of something Joel Spolsky wrote about on his blog. The best managers were those who "moved the furniture out the way". Basically clear the way for the people working on the problem to do so.

Forgeties79 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Like that metaphor

michaelcampbell 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> it starts with a straw man argument ...

Perhaps they have, but there are also no shortage of middle managers that are adequately described by it. I worked for one for a few years.

venturecruelty 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Friendly reminder that management exists to get you to justify your expensive pay check. Every employer-employee relationship is adversarial. Adjust accordingly.