| ▲ | bluGill 7 hours ago |
| I have heard that story every few years for the last 30. I know when it is your personal situation things are hard, but your story is nothing new and people recover. Some get back into whatever their degree was, others start a new career and never do. this will happen again. |
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| ▲ | johnnyanmac 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| >and people recover. So you read nothing about how graduates during 2008 pretty much had forever stunted careers? They aren't put on the streets, but it's clear some very long term damage is being done to people simply as a matter of bad luck. |
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| ▲ | thewebguyd 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > So you read nothing about how graduates during 2008 pretty much had forever stunted careers? Myself included. Graduated in '08, had to work various minimum wage jobs in retail for several years because no one was hiring. I'm just now at a point in my career, nearing 40, where I should have been at 28. Degree doesn't matter much when your only work experience is 5 years of working at Starbucks, and you barely have personal projects because you're too busy working 2 jobs to just to survive. Those of us who suffered through that time period barely recovered, and many didn't recover at all. It shaped an entire generation. | | |
| ▲ | smileson2 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm a little older but I have found it strange how well economic crisis has been almost wiped from our collective memories it was a horrible period and I have many friends who are in the same boat especially those not in software | | |
| ▲ | SilverElfin 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think it is wiped from memories because it very specifically affected one or two years of college graduates (that had the experience the parent comment mentioned). Not an entire generation. The data shows millennials as a whole are better off than boomers were at their age. | | |
| ▲ | mvr123456 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The data shows millennials as a whole are better off than boomers were at their age. Perhaps true if you go east far enough, seems objectively wrong for the majority of the west though. Honest question, if you think this and it isn't just rage bait.. what data supports it? Scott Galloway disagrees and offers hard data, and goes as far as calling it intergenerational theft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEJ4hkpQW8E | | |
| ▲ | SilverElfin 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Perhaps true if you go east far enough, seems objectively wrong for the majority of the west though. Much of the (American) millennials generation believes a story that they’re worse off. I feel it is a convenient story for people to tell themselves and blame someone else for their perceived losses. But I pulled up several articles supporting my claim with a quick search, even though the opposite narrative is more widespread. Example article about how inflation adjusted net worth is higher for millennials than it was for boomers at the same age: https://www.newsweek.com/millennials-financially-better-off-... Galloway isn’t necessarily wrong in the individual data points he raises. But if you look at the sum of all of the factors - higher rents, more student debt, etc but also the positive things - the net worth in the end is higher for millennials. And remember this is inflation adjusted already. | | |
| ▲ | Den_VR 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The numbers that interest me are comparing home ownership rates at various ages between the generational groups Lots of research shows about a 8-10% gap, that only at very specific ages finally achieved parity. The consequence of this is a difference in wealth building, economic security, and family planning for millions. | | |
| ▲ | aianus an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | To add to that, an unemployed 28 year old living with his parents in the house that they own is a "homeowner" in most of these homeowner stats. | |
| ▲ | SilverElfin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why does home ownership on its own matter? Net worth is inclusive of housing and assets and debt. And net worth is a direct measure of the wealth that is being built. | | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Because homes are pretty much the only asset a millenial would have at that time that would have grown over time. a 08-9 graducate wouldn't really have much money to spar for stocks unless they made really lucky bets or happened to mine a fewbitcoin they forgot about. Most all else would have inflated or depreciated. | |
| ▲ | aianus an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As a thought experiment would you not feel (much) poorer if houses suddenly cost >$5 million tomorrow and you didn't own one yet? Even if everything else cost the same? Even if everything else cost the same and your net worth went up $100k? | |
| ▲ | actionfromafar 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Someone posted this already but a more useful "net worth" is how big of a shock can take without paying multiples on the sticker price. And even homes are now sieving into institutional buyers. https://medium.com/newco/your-financial-shock-wealth-4845e6d... | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | aydyn 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've read this as well, heres an economist article with a graph: https://archive.ph/Y3vvz However, there are certainly a lot of conflicting studies and data out there. And to be honest, it doesnt feel true given how much young people complain on the internet. Its hard to see which asserion is correct. It isnt necessarily correct just because one study says its so. | |
| ▲ | orwin an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's the average. Please compare the median wealth (especially seeing the absurd paper wealth of crypto bro and stock influencers who are almost exclusively millennials). [Edit] also inflation is calculated based on average consumption. So you will notice that toys, clothing and electronic devices (TVs, cooking robots), all cheaper and cheaper (due to enshitiffication and quality decrease) count more for inflation than education, cars, housing and probably a lot of other stuff a 25-35 yo care more about. |
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| ▲ | AngryData 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A lot of the data used to claim millenials are doing better off is based on nonsense like "millenials have larger TVs on average" or "millenials all have smart phones yet boomers didn't have mobile phones", or equating 1 person making 3 times the median wage and 2 people making nothing as just as good as 3 different people making median wage. |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | pyuser583 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | sorry your math seems strange. You graduated from college in ‘08 - 17 years ago. You’re nearing 40. So let’s say you graduated at 23 … you’ve only had a college level job for five years? The economy has been moving upward since 2013 - 12 years ago. What were you doing from 2013 to 2020? I ask because I also graduated around ‘08. I’ve been a software developer since 2016. I’m currently a senior dev with almost a decade of experience. There were really crappy years to start with, but I feel I’ve made up for it substantially. My own parents graduated in the late 70s during a terrible economic recession. It seems weathering economic recessions have been a tradition for several generations. I still remember articles almost identical to the ones I see now; “this generation is screwed and there is no possible salvation.” It’s getting old. | |
| ▲ | Den_VR 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I'm just now at a point in my career, nearing 40, where I should have been at 28. What or who is the standard for where you “should have been at 28?” |
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| ▲ | adamredwoods 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Here's the study on that: https://academic.oup.com/psychsocgerontology/article/77/4/78... >> Across a generation’s life course, early-life advantages are magnified through disparate occupational and social trajectories that lead to wide late-life disparities in financial and health resources, in a process first termed by Crystal and Shea as one of “cumulative advantage and disadvantage” (CAD; Crystal, 1982, 1986, 2020; Crystal et al., 1992, 2017; Crystal & Shea, 1990b; Dannefer, 1987, 1988). Dannefer (1987) described the trend of increasing inequality over the life course as the “Matthew effect,” applying a biblical dictum first used by Merton (1968), stating that “to he who has much, more is given, and to he who has little, even that is taken.” This ongoing process has also been described as an “obdurate tendency” for increasing inequality over the life course (Dannefer, 2020). | |
| ▲ | Saigonautica 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, it caused me to emigrate to a growth economy. If I stayed in the West, I don't think I would have been OK. |
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| ▲ | reactordev 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I was going to say this. Money comes, money goes, that’s life. Ideally you’re smart enough to save and invest to weather these storms but for those (like myself) that are still working hard post 40, we know it’s all part of the game. I tell the younger generation the same thing. Save, invest, max 401k, before you go off and party. Your older self will thank you. |
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| ▲ | johnnyanmac 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You telling someone with 50k in debt, turning in 1000's or job apps struggling to find a job they studied 4+ years for and not being able to even pay rent to "just save"... is exactly how we got into this situation to begin with. | | |
| ▲ | ethin 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm literally one of these people. My only work experience is a GSoC internship in 2021. I have yet to get hired and I've been looking for 4 years, graduated in 2022 right before ChatGPT came out. I've had no choice but to become a generalist as a consequence, and over the last year or two my interviews have dropped to zero and absolutely none of the advice I've gotten from anybody has helped. Just my personal experience. | | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I'm really sorry this happened. I'm managing a bit better since I graduated in 2017, but I still pretty much had my senior trajectory yoinked from under me. The market is completely different now than back when I graduated. I don't really have any advice for the present. We're in a storm, so do what you need to weather it. If there's any downtime you do have, use it to prepare for when (if?) the market bounces back: 1. Network. Nothing serious but just get to know people in your area. Keep in contact and they might one day have an in for some work. 2. work on personal projects. They aren't being looked at now, but it'll help you stand out when the market corrects itself. 3. consider some adjacent skillsets. At some point, if this last longer than any of us expect, it may be best to vouch for yourself. learning some graphic design can help you sell your own apps or make websites for others. Learning some art can help you sell games. embrace the generalization and be able to take small products from start to finih by youself. If you don't want to get completely out, you may want to start shaping your career around being your own boss instead of relying on others to employ you. 4. take care of your physical health. I don't know your body, and you may already be doing this. But it's always important to remind people (especially in a field like tech) that sometimes a breath of fresh air and 10 minutes of walking can make all the difference. Don't let yourself get cooped up. Best of luck out there. |
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| ▲ | karlshea 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm gonna have to hold your hand when I tell you this: when you tell the younger generation to "save" or "invest" they are going to walk away from that conversation knowing they were just speaking with one of the most mind-numbingly naive Olds they're going to encounter in probably the next several months. Please, if you ever want any respect from anyone younger than you ever again in your entire life, do not say those words again. | | |
| ▲ | reactordev 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | At some point you are going to have to grow up and take matters into your own hands instead of blaming everyone for your situation. I’m not old. Just wise. | | |
| ▲ | cjs_ac 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I appreciate the point you're trying to make, and I agree taking responsibility for one's own life circumstances is the only way to improve them, but surely you understand that 'save and invest' is wholly unsuitable advice for someone with no disposable income or no income at all. | | |
| ▲ | reactordev 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Who else is responsible for you? You have two options. Continue to point fingers and complain and be broke, or start putting $100/mo in VOO and save what little money you have for your future? I know it sucks. I know income inequality is huge. I know the only way out of this is to put in sweat equity. I know the only way to put food on the table is to have a second job at a gas station. I’ve been there. However, as much as you DON’T want to hear it - the only way out of your mess is by you working your way out of your mess. |
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| ▲ | watwut an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | They cant fix the economy singlehandly. Blaming individuals for systemic problems is just avoidance. | | |
| ▲ | reactordev 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The only thing they can control is themselves and their habits though. I’m not avoiding the fact that the economy is fucked. I’m fully aware. It’s up to you how much you’re willing to continue to pay or what you’re willing to sacrifice. It sucks, but the only thing you can control is yourself. |
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| ▲ | goodolddays9090 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm a bit over 40, not liking parts of my FAANG job, worried I'll lose it, and worried no where in the industry is as fun as 12 years ago, but being on the low end of Fat FIRE makes it a lot easier. | | |
| ▲ | aaronblohowiak 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | FI is more valuable than RE. After three years or so I got the itch again and decided to self fund my own thing. Also looking back on around 10 years ago more fondly.. | | |
| ▲ | goodolddays9090 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah; I've heard a few people say versions of you get bored if you retire early, and I've soon to be retirees talk about how the people they know who retired to go do nothing just wasted away. I like tech; my challenge now is finding a gig with interesting work and a good work-life balance and p75 pay. That, and knowing when I actually have enough net worth to have more freedom. The problem is you never think it's enough, but not because of greed, but because of fear. | | |
| ▲ | chickensong 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Boredom is a personality trait IMHO. Some of us never get bored, there's only lack of time and funds for hobbies and exploring. |
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| ▲ | goodolddays9090 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Also looking back on around 10 years ago more fondly When the work didn't suck and the product didn't suck. |
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| ▲ | cwbriscoe 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Being FI helped me out greatly in December 2020 when My company laid off half of my team and expected me to take on double the load, including lots of extra after hours on-call support. I had a pretty great time not working for ~3 years during Covid. However, I am back to work after an old friend and boss offered me a WFH job that I couldn't refuse. He has since retired so I will stick around until current management pisses me off again, they downsize me or I just get sick of logging into teams/outlook at 7AM every morning. |
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| ▲ | lotsofpulp 8 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I tell the younger generation the same thing. Save, invest, max 401k, before you go off and party. Your older self will thank you. 401k max is $24,500. How much do you expect a person to earn to be able to max it out? And what percentile income is that at the bottom and top of the age range you consider “young”? https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-by-age-calculator/ Tldr: you are telling almost every 20 to 30 year old to not party. | |
| ▲ | SilverElfin 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Others are criticizing you but the reality is that people usually spend more and save less than they could. There are plenty of people with modest income who manage to build a decent retirement. But it takes discipline. You have to be okay with sacrificing for the future. | | |
| ▲ | raffraffraff 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As an "Old" who was a kid in the late 70s to early 90s, I'm telling young folks that there is no first world poverty like there was then. Not just because "we" were poor, but because you couldn't get "stuff" anyway. Like, the biggest TV I ever saw back them was 25". Nobody had a computer. Unemployment across the board was high. I saw my first kiwi fruit or avocado when I was 10. Clothes were expensive (even thrift / store brand). "Stuff" of any kind was expensive or non existent. Yesterday my BIL threw a perfectly working tower PC in the recycling because he couldn't find anyone (not even a charity shop) to take it. Last time I was at e-waste I saw half a dozen 42 inch TVs that I'm willing to bet we're working. However we were wealthy in one way: we had a stable home, and optimism. I may have had old clothes, one pair of worn shoes and a 4th-hand uncool bicycle, but there was no question of ever losing the roof over my head. And there was a future that looked like it was full of possibilities. "Stuff" was getting cheaper and more available. I remember our family being able to afford our first microwave oven. Our first VCR (1991). We didn't get rich, things got cheaper. Today, it's like we're looking at the future as if we're already post-peak, and it's all downhill from here. There's tons of stuff around but nobody wants it. People have also lost the positive attitude, optimism. It'll get you through a lot of bad times. Years and years of shit. Lose optimism, and it's all bleak no matter how big your TV is. If I could choose a safe to be reborn in, I'd take "our" poverty of the past over this. | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >the reality is that people usually spend more and save less than they could. You can't save your way out of rent being 70, 80+% of your paycheck. For my area, minimum wage is $18 and your best hope for rent is sharing a $3k 2 bedroom apartment. quick napkin math suggests $2400 take home pay and ~$1800 eaten up between the rent split, utilities, gas, and the most basic rice and beans diet of "groceries". Not even including potential health insurance or car notes or student loans. If you don't have the fortune of a family who'd house you for free/dirt cheap then you don't have much to save. You're already sacrificing for the present. |
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| ▲ | markus_zhang 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I pray you are right and I'm wrong. But I do have reasons to believe that this time is a bit different. |
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| ▲ | onion2k 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| In all the previous job market contractions the root cause has been money - increasing costs, less investment capital, etc. This is the first time the root cause appears to be tech (if you believe the announcements about layoffs). That makes it different. |
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| ▲ | nradov 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Nah. It's not different. Money in the tech industry has always chased the hype cycle. We're approaching the peak of inflated expectations for LLMs and then in a few years the AI industry will crash into the trough of disillusionment. That doesn't mean that LLMs are useless but in many sectors of the real economy they will have only a slow and limited impact. https://www.gartner.com/en/research/methodologies/gartner-hy... | | |
| ▲ | aydyn 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Its just so weird how demonstrably insane the hype cycle this time around is. Everytime I think ChatGPT and Gemini are improving, it hits me with some monstrously stupid hallucinations. Here's how my conversation with GPT 5.1 went this afternoon: >Can you please provide a reference for the assertion you just made >Sure, here it is: <link> > 404, please double check > I apologize for the mistake, I have double checked, here is the corrected link: <link> > Still 404, please always double check a link by actually visiting and reading it x5 before I gave up. |
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