| ▲ | itsdrewmiller 3 hours ago |
| > As one example, one state agency has asked Revoy to do certified engine testing to prove that the Revoy doesn’t increase emissions of semi trucks. And that Revoy must do this certification across every single truck engine family. It costs $100,000 per certification and there are more than 270 engine families for the 9 engines that our initial partners use. That’s $27,000,000 for this one regulatory item. And keep in mind that this is to certify that a device—whose sole reason for existence is to cut pollution by >90%, and which has demonstrably done so across nearly 100,000 miles of testing and operations—is not increasing the emissions of the truck. It’s a complete waste of money for everyone. Wild - whoever did this should lose their job. |
|
| ▲ | darth_avocado 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The problem isn’t that regulations exist. The problem is that they are defined in a way that reasonable work arounds or alternative pathways do not exist for situations like this. 270 engine families for 9 engine suggests that the designs may be small variations that would not significantly change the emissions between them. The bureaucrats should waive off some requirements here. The other alternative that I can think of is that experimental engines get an exception to be not certified for X miles of operation. Once the candidates are chosen for mass production, mandatory certifications can be introduced. Even if your new design doubles the emissions for some reason, over 100000 miles, that’s barely a drop in the bucket. For reference, double the emissions for 100000 miles is roughly equivalent to having an extra semi on the road for a year, which is nothing. |
| |
| ▲ | nerdponx 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | We need more information. How does this work for internal combustion truck engines? Is the regulation well intentioned poorly designed? Is it anti-competitive gatekeeping drafted by lobbyists? Is the author misrepresenting something? All of the above? Hard to say. | |
| ▲ | samdoesnothing 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You cannot separate the idea of regulation from their harm because they are inherent to the concept. A system so complex and dynamical as human civilization is beyond our ability to correctly ascertain the outcome of interventions, especially those imposed from the top down. In other words, we're likely to do more harm than good by imposing interventions because we cannot accurately predict their outcomes. Which is why they often have paradoxical effects. Rent control is a fantastic if trivial example of such. We know central planning doesn't work, yet we are inclined to do it anyway under the false notion that it's better to do something rather than nothing. | | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | >Rent control is a fantastic if trivial example of such. No it isn't. Rent control is made to provide short term relief. Regulations tend to be long term requriements. Of course making a short term temporary solution long term does not work. >we're likely to do more harm than good by imposing interventions because we cannot accurately predict their outcomes For policy, I think it is important to be risk averse. Regulations are extremely risk averse. Slowing down reckless actions so that people don't die should be considered a good thing. Of course, that can be anathema to businesses who rush to be first to market. I don't see regulations being a problem here, but the cost of the regulations. Instead of focusing on de-regulations we look into what that 100k certification is going to? Hopefully not yet another for-profit middleman with incentives to bog the process down. | |
| ▲ | heddycrow an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The "we" that knows central planning doesn't work and the "we" inclined toward central planning are the same? If so, I've not met this group of people, but I'd like to share your first point with them because I tend to agree. | | |
| ▲ | vkou 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | If central planning didn't work, why does every corporation under the sun use it internally? Why don't they just let everyone do what they want, and then sue eachother when it doesn't result in great outcomes? |
| |
| ▲ | vkou 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | And you cannot separate the idea of lack of regulation from the harm inherent to the concept. This kind of lazy ideological posturing is thought-terminating and incredibly tiring. Your position is simply unable to demonstrate to us how a blanket policy of letting whatever corner-cutting garbage slip into your food, medicine, construction materials, safety systems actually leads to globally better outcomes. It would be truly baffling if of all conceivable points on the axis it was a global optimum. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | potato3732842 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The magic of the system is that we all did it, comrade. There's multiple people, laws define what those people can do, processes, comment periods. It's all spiderman pointing at spiderman. You can't find any one party so clearly culpable that they can in good conscience suffer real consequence. And it's not just this, every f-ing regulated industry is like this. I work with someone who specs out where the wires and fixtures for the lights are gonna go in commercial buildings. Ceiling lighting is full of crap like this for christ sake. The whole system is rotten. |
| |
|
| ▲ | cool_dude85 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Wild - whoever did this should lose their job. Why's that? Because a guy who's apparently friends with the owner of the company that produces these things told you that it saves emissions? Doesn't it seem reasonable to verify these claims? |
| |
| ▲ | appreciatorBus 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Of course we should verify such claims. Just as we should also verify claims that every regulation that has ever been written into law is by definition Good (tm) and can never be questioned. It's possible for the friend of the company owner to astroturf an online form to get a good regulation eliminated, just because it didn't benefit him. It's also possible for the such wealthy individuals to astrotruf in favour of bad regulations, just because it would benefit him. | | |
| ▲ | samdoesnothing 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The null hypothesis is that interventions are just as if not more likely to cause harm than do good. | | |
| |
| ▲ | some_random 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No that doesn't seem reasonable at all if it's been proven to work _really well_ in several configurations and there's no particular reason to expect that the results would be drastically different in other very similar configurations. | | |
| ▲ | cool_dude85 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Who proved it works really well in several configurations? | |
| ▲ | squigz 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And how do you codify the threshold for what "very similar" configurations don't need to be tested and those that do? | | |
| ▲ | XorNot an hour ago | parent [-] | | That's what regulatory exemption procedures exist for, and it would be the logical next step if you had convincing hard data. Every single regulatory process has them, so the fact that this very ranty article omits any mention of an attempt to use them is highly suspect. I've worked with plenty of systems where for all sorts of reasons exemptions are granted for the express purpose of promoting innovation or recognizing a special circumstance. |
|
| |
| ▲ | shortrounddev2 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Some kind of testing should be required but 27mil seems egregious | | |
| ▲ | ehnto an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yeah why does the certification process cost so much is one question I have. Would this be a conversation if the cost of the test were more reasonable? |
|
|
|
| ▲ | Workaccount2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Having dealt with regulatory bodies before - they probably did lose their job, maybe multiple times, before becoming an engineer that doesn't have to engineer anything, just come up with rules. |
|
| ▲ | IG_Semmelweiss an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is China's secret weapon. Luckily, the internet, software, and the digital world in general; were a bit too out of left field for regulators. That's why we kept supremacy over them. If we are lucky, AI may not be regulated to death |
|
| ▲ | cm2012 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Its not usually one person, but many well meaning committees. |
|
| ▲ | dangus 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Seems somewhat reasonable. I don’t know why the company is supporting all 270 engine families. This company wants to put a bunch of stuff on the road going 70mph that could crash into you and kill you and is complaining about a measly $27 million of regulatory cost. They are making up a bunch of scary numbers about the cost of the status quo and the tone of the article is basically holding us all hostage. Speed out special snowflake startup company through the regulatory process (written in blood) or else you’ll lose bajillions of dollars in suffering and pain from the “status quo.” $27 million is basically a rounding error for automotive companies. Maybe do better at raising funds next time, bro. |
| |
| ▲ | some_random 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why wouldn't they try to support a large number of engines, the testing was about emissions not safety, and they're not a huge automotive company. | | |
| ▲ | dangus 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Emissions = safety. I assume that out of 270 entire families that some are more popular than others? Why not pick the 20-30 most popular ones? The tone of this article is that OP’s company has a savior complex. If they aren’t given expedient special treatment regulatory approval, the status quo is causing a bunch of fake make up dollar values of damage. It’s kind of a gross tone. | | |
| ▲ | ehnto an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Presumably they have so many families to serve their customers well. If they were to consolidate their engine families in such a way to avoid paying as much money to regulatory processes, that seems like a bit of a perverse incentive and outcome. In my view though the goal of the regulation isn't bad, but the cost of the process is prohibitive. Why is it so expensive to measure engine emissions? | |
| ▲ | some_random 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >As one example, one state agency has asked Revoy to do certified engine testing to prove that the Revoy doesn’t increase emissions of semi trucks. Where in this sentence is asbestos mentioned? As for the families, if they know their product works in 270 engine families why would they chose to only sell to 20-30? | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Because they can't afford the required testing for all of them? | | |
| ▲ | cm2012 an hour ago | parent [-] | | The testing that is clearly theater and a waste of money for all involved? | | |
| ▲ | potato3732842 40 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It's not wasting the money of the testing people who's job it is to get paid to do work. Like a civil engineer preparing an existing conditions plan of a flat field... |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | cm2012 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Spoken like someone who has no idea how hard it is to actually get anything done in real life vs your armchair. |
|