| ▲ | Over-Regulation Is Doubling the Cost by Peter Reinhardt(rein.pk) |
| 33 points by bilsbie 2 hours ago | 28 comments |
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| ▲ | itsdrewmiller an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| > As one example, one state agency has asked Revoy to do certified engine testing to prove that the Revoy doesn’t increase emissions of semi trucks. And that Revoy must do this certification across every single truck engine family. It costs $100,000 per certification and there are more than 270 engine families for the 9 engines that our initial partners use. That’s $27,000,000 for this one regulatory item. And keep in mind that this is to certify that a device—whose sole reason for existence is to cut pollution by >90%, and which has demonstrably done so across nearly 100,000 miles of testing and operations—is not increasing the emissions of the truck. It’s a complete waste of money for everyone. Wild - whoever did this should lose their job. |
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| ▲ | darth_avocado 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem isn’t that regulations exist. The problem is that they are defined in a way that reasonable work arounds or alternative pathways do not exist for situations like this. 270 engine families for 9 engine suggests that the designs may be small variations that would not significantly change the emissions between them. The bureaucrats should waive off some requirements here. The other alternative that I can think of is that experimental engines get an exception to be not certified for X miles of operation. Once the candidates are chosen for mass production, mandatory certifications can be introduced. Even if your new design doubles the emissions for some reason, over 100000 miles, that’s barely a drop in the bucket. For reference, double the emissions for 100000 miles is roughly equivalent to having an extra semi on the road for a year, which is nothing. | | |
| ▲ | nerdponx 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | We need more information. How does this work for internal combustion truck engines? Is the regulation well intentioned poorly designed? Is it anti-competitive gatekeeping drafted by lobbyists? Is the author misrepresenting something? All of the above? Hard to say. | |
| ▲ | samdoesnothing 6 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | You cannot separate the idea of regulation from their harm because they are inherent to the concept. A system so complex and dynamical as human civilization is beyond our ability to correctly ascertain the outcome of interventions, especially those imposed from the top down. In other words, we're likely to do more harm than good by imposing interventions because we cannot accurately predict their outcomes. Which is why they often have paradoxical effects. Rent control is a fantastic if trivial example of such. We know central planning doesn't work, yet we are inclined to do it anyway under the false notion that it's better to do something rather than nothing. |
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| ▲ | cool_dude85 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Wild - whoever did this should lose their job. Why's that? Because a guy who's apparently friends with the owner of the company that produces these things told you that it saves emissions? Doesn't it seem reasonable to verify these claims? | | |
| ▲ | appreciatorBus 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Of course we should verify such claims. Just as we should also verify claims that every regulation that has ever been written into law is by definition Good (tm) and can never be questioned. It's possible for the friend of the company owner to astroturf an online form to get a good regulation eliminated, just because it didn't benefit him. It's also possible for the such wealthy individuals to astrotruf in favour of bad regulations, just because it would benefit him. | | |
| ▲ | samdoesnothing 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The null hypothesis is that interventions are just as if not more likely to cause harm than do good. |
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| ▲ | some_random 42 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No that doesn't seem reasonable at all if it's been proven to work _really well_ in several configurations and there's no particular reason to expect that the results would be drastically different in other very similar configurations. | | |
| ▲ | cool_dude85 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Who proved it works really well in several configurations? | |
| ▲ | squigz 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | And how do you codify the threshold for what "very similar" configurations don't need to be tested and those that do? |
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| ▲ | shortrounddev2 30 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Some kind of testing should be required but 27mil seems egregious |
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| ▲ | dangus an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Seems somewhat reasonable. I don’t know why the company is supporting all 270 engine families. This company wants to put a bunch of stuff on the road going 70mph that could crash into you and kill you and is complaining about a measly $27 million of regulatory cost. They are making up a bunch of scary numbers about the cost of the status quo and the tone of the article is basically holding us all hostage. Speed out special snowflake startup company through the regulatory process (written in blood) or else you’ll lose bajillions of dollars in suffering and pain from the “status quo.” $27 million is basically a rounding error for automotive companies. Maybe do better at raising funds next time, bro. | | |
| ▲ | some_random an hour ago | parent [-] | | Why wouldn't they try to support a large number of engines, the testing was about emissions not safety, and they're not a huge automotive company. | | |
| ▲ | dangus an hour ago | parent [-] | | Emissions = safety. I assume that out of 270 entire families that some are more popular than others? Why not pick the 20-30 most popular ones? The tone of this article is that OP’s company has a savior complex. If they aren’t given expedient special treatment regulatory approval, the status quo is causing a bunch of fake make up dollar values of damage. It’s kind of a gross tone. | | |
| ▲ | some_random 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >As one example, one state agency has asked Revoy to do certified engine testing to prove that the Revoy doesn’t increase emissions of semi trucks. Where in this sentence is asbestos mentioned? As for the families, if they know their product works in 270 engine families why would they chose to only sell to 20-30? | | |
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| ▲ | k1musab1 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Edison Motors, a manufacturer of hybrid and electric semi and other trucks in Canada, is currently battling regulation. They have a series of videos on their Youtube channel going over what's been taking place. |
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| ▲ | samdoesnothing 12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Everyone should read or at least be familiar with Joseph Tainter and his research on societal collapse. > “It is suggested that the increased costs of sociopolitical evolution frequently reach a point of diminishing marginal returns. This is to say that the benefit/investment ratio of sociopolitical complexity follows the marginal product curve… After a certain point, increased investments in complexity fail to yield proportionately increasing returns. Marginal returns decline and marginal costs rise. Complexity as a strategy becomes increasingly costly, and yields decreasing marginal benefits.” Government regulation and intervention are one such contributor to complexity, and as Michael Huemer demonstrates in his paper In Praise of Passivity we are akin to medieval doctors administering medical procedures on society that are more likely to cause harm than create benefits. It's fairly clear to me that our civilization is in decline, and it pains me to no end to see people push for more regulation and government intervention. "The patient is getting sicker, we need to let more blood! Fetch me more leaches!" The good news is that collapse, as Tainter puts it, isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's a return to less complexity, and it often brings great benefits to large swathes of people. For example, the collapse of the Roman Empire was beneficial to serfs who would actually welcome raiding parties into their villages. |
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| ▲ | dangus an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I was just reading an NYT article about lead battery recyclers in Africa and how their operations are basically unregulated and are poisoning entire towns. Things going a little slow or costing a little more is very often preferable to the alternative where you begin operations recklessly and negatively impact neighbors, sometimes irreparably. |
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| ▲ | tjwebbnorfolk 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | When someone says being overweight is bad, do you think they are saying they shouldn't exist at all? Of course not, they want to be a normal weight. That's the discussion reasonable people hope to have about regulation. Your strawman isn't welcome here -- I've never seen anyone seriously argue that ALL regulations should be removed. | |
| ▲ | nemomarx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think part of the story here is that as we regulate things at home we also out source activity that wouldn't fly here to those African regions? That may keep it out of sight but if it's still happening it might have been better to do it in a managed way at home. | | |
| ▲ | shswkna 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Its exactly this. And the majority of persons in powerful regulatory roles completely don’t get or comprehend this effect. When regulatory efforts depart from reality,and fail to find the correct middle ground, this happens: The reality still exists, and will always find its expression in one of the following: - people circumvent rules and go criminal - undesired behaviours move elsewhere where the regulation doesn’t exist - sections of an economy die - issues remain unaddressed with the over regulated issues becoming too taboo to even discuss in a sane way. | |
| ▲ | dangus an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | “All outsourced, vendor, and subcontractor companies down the entire production/waste chain to the raw material must meet US environmental regulations.” Done, fixed the loophole. | | |
| ▲ | some_random 44 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Oh of course, just identify your entire supply chain in both directions and make sure they're compliant. What an obviously easy thing to do. |
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| ▲ | energy123 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's a false choice to say we must choose between what OP describes versus what you describe. A wealthy country should be capable of effective, efficient and low-corruption state capacity. To the extent that it isn't serving the public good due to being overly slow, we should be pushing for reform to make things better, instead of adopting this defeatist mindset that the only alternative is to become some anarcho-capitalist strawman. |
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| ▲ | faidit 42 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Meanwhile the established players with connections can break all the laws they want, and pay zero taxes to boot. I think the problem isn't regulation (which the current admin is aggressively destroying, e.g. with the EPA) so much as corruption - which manifests partly as critical government functions being deliberately starved of resources. Regulatory bodies should get more funding to study and approve new technologies, and there should be more subsidies available for smaller innovators to offset the R&D investments and application waiting periods. That wouldn't be in the interest of big polluters and their captive politicians though. |
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| ▲ | nocoiner 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] |
| He described “the missed acceleration in sales” of pumping Liquid Smoke down old oil wells as “a direct hard cost” of the regulatory regime. That tells me all I need to know about our narrator’s intellectual honesty. I’m open to being convinced that there are better ways of doing things, but despite what half a century of propaganda has been saying, regulations generally aren’t enacted for funsies. They’re there for a reason, specially the reason that in the absence of those regulations, commercial actors were privatizing profit at the expense of society as a whole, and democratic society made a decision to make rules to stop that from happening. |
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| ▲ | orzig 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | He literally writes: “Regulation obviously has a critical role in protecting people and the environment” and then quantifies “a mindblowing $40m/year in healthcare costs” and a total of “about $400M” in societal cost from one delay, mostly borne by the public. In that context, the line you are reacting to is just one item in a long list: “We’ve also spent untold millions on regulatory affairs at all levels of government, not to mention the missed acceleration in sales” He even says, “What pains me most is the 5 years of lost carbon removal and pollutant reduction” So the piece is not “regulations bad, profits good.” It is: regulations are essential, but the current process is generating huge public harms by slowing down tech whose whole purpose is to reduce pollution. Maybe he’s wrong on any given point, but he’s clearly trying to describe the utilitarian trade-offs in good faith |
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