| ▲ | Sprotch 11 hours ago |
| I’d argue focusing on wealth inequality is precisely the wrong approach. A better approach would be to look at the quality of life of the poorest. |
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| ▲ | rectang 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Eventually huge wealth inequality impacts quality of life because quality of life is not measured exclusively in cheap toasters. For starters, look at the proportion of income that goes to rent: https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/rental-housing-unaffordabi... > The net effect of this longer history is that renters today spend much more of their incomes on rent than they did in previous generations. The median renter household in 1960 spent less than a fifth of their income on rent. By 2022, housing costs consumed 31 percent of the median renter’s income. As inequality has increased, life has become more uncertain for those towards the bottom, because the cost of recovering from adverse life events (health crises, unemployment, etc) has become increasingly unmanageable. |
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| ▲ | Spooky23 7 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The switch to the current monetary system, followed by the elimination of taxation for rich people created this. You can only prosper with compounding. People on the bottom are just as helpless as they were before. They carry on with benefits and modest income. They get (shitty) healthcare fit free. The next two tiers of working poor are the ones that have gotten screwed. |
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| ▲ | Atomic_Torrfisk 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I disagree, high degrees of wealth inequality result in manipulation of our society to act against the best interest of the common man. Unfortunately, this article seems to be more inline with quantization for the sake of navel gazing. |
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| ▲ | bijection 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Though I agree that inequality is less important than the quality of life of the poorest people, this article explicitly tries to characterize the latter, so even though this is done in the name of discussing wealth inequality, I'm not sure your comment applies here. |
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| ▲ | loeg 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | The whole article is about creating a log-ish scale comparison system. |
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| ▲ | odiroot 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is how you end up with aggressive taxation on middle class, all the while the wealthy are laughing their way to the bank. |
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| ▲ | dasil003 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why is it "precisely the wrong approach"? And why does it have to be just one? I agree looking at the quality of life of the poorest is a valuable barometer for the quality and success of a society to serve all its people. Similarly I think looking at the richest and what checks exist on their power also says a lot about the health of a civilization. It also makes perfect sense to me that we would look at wealth distributions as well. After all comparison and competition is core to the human experience, is entirely relative, and more visible than ever in the age of the internet and social media. These dynamics massively impact individual perceptions of success and political priorities, fairness being a deeply baked value in the human wetware (just ask any 5-year-old), so not sure why we wouldn't want to address them directly. Certainly there's more value than in the superficial tribalism and dog whistle culture that passes for political discourse today? |
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| ▲ | Nifty3929 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, and also numerical "wealth" is not the same as stuff. Rich people often have very high numerical wealth, but actually don't have so much more "stuff" - houses, medicine, food, etc. They will certainly have more of these things, but maybe 100x not 1Mx. For example, let's say that Musk is 250k times wealthier than I am. Does he have 250k shoes? Houses? Not really. And it's the consumption of stuff that is really the share that one takes from society, not "wealth." Having $1 might be wealth, but it is not until I spend that Dollar on an apple that I have taken something from society. |
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| ▲ | wyre 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is contradictory to how I understand economics. The consumption of "stuff" contributes to GDP, which is one of the first things people use to correlate to quality of life. Also, spending money and the consumption of stuff isn't "taking something from society". It is someone's job to grow, harvest, process, transport, and sell apples. Spending a dollar to purchase an apple supports all of those people directly. Those people spend their money on stuff and it circulates. Nothing is being "taken" things are bought and sold on a free-market. I am arguing that hoarding wealth is the share that one takes from society. You are right that Musk doesn't have 250k shoes or houses, but that's why its problematic, it is wealth that could be spent circulating through the economy, it is wealth that is a claim on future labor and resources, it is the power over his companies, employees, industry, and society. All of these are a much larger "take" from society than buying an apple, a pair of shoes, a house, or any other good or service. | | |
| ▲ | brailsafe 28 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Agreed, but > The consumption of "stuff" contributes to GDP, which is one of the first things people use to correlate to quality of life. It's one of the first things governments use to correlate to quality of life, and imo it's a good way to get away with papering over inequality. A country's GDP can be stable or slowly growing and it won't be in recession, and yet much of that GDP can be produced by one generation of people who are in a class that's multiple orders of magnitude wealthier because the newest generation of people has to pay them to have a roof over their head and subsidize their retirement. The GDP comes from the appreciation of their property value and the rental income, while a massive proportion of working age people are just able to consume and work, largely for those same people. Very wildly different qualities of life even below what Mag World would consider Rich, maybe not in the moment when someone can but themselves some literal or metaphorical candy, but in terms of viable upward mobility and precariousness long-term. In order to buy the house I live in the basement of, not even owned by a much older generation person in this case (seemingly a single mom, but an investment banker afaik), I would need to be able to sustain a $2m+ mortgage and come up with a $400k+ down payment, it will never be possible, and even though I never wanted that for my future, it's depressing that it's just laughably and insanely out of reach, GDP kind of hides that this is the case for many. |
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| ▲ | Epa095 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | He has infinitely times more jets than me though. But the focus on their personal consumption is not the most important. There is a limit to how much ice-cream a person can eat, and at some point the money is no longer used for direct personal consumption. But rather to influence the world in whatever direction they want. | | |
| ▲ | dougb5 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | It reminds me of how Sam Altman recently said: "I'd rather hear from candidates about how they are going to make everyone have the stuff billionaires have instead of how they are going to eliminate billionaires." But the hyper-wealthy don't just have _stuff_, they also have power to make decisions affecting society -- to buy elections, to buy social networks, to influence which countries we do AI chip deals with, to start new cities, and so forth. A world in which everyone has the same amount of this decision-making power is probably not a world in which billionaires exist. | | |
| ▲ | 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | rectang 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, "don't look at wealth inequality" boils down to an argument for shifting political power to the wealthy — which I'm sure its proponents genuinely believe is for the best. | |
| ▲ | onraglanroad 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I'd rather hear from candidates about how they are going to make everyone have the stuff billionaires have instead of how they are going to eliminate billionaires." I'm sure you would prefer the impossible dream than the guillotine, Sammy boy. | | |
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| ▲ | 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | fragmede 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | More to the point, he has the same 24 hours in a day as everyone else. His money lets him do different things with those 24 hours than you and I, but he still only gets 24. (Until he gets to Mars, then it's 24.66.) | | |
| ▲ | Nifty3929 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And roughly 80 or so years as well! | | |
| ▲ | fragmede 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Between Bryan Johnson, and then also Xi and Putin getting caught on a hot mic discussing how they're going to live to 120 or 150, I wouldn't be so sure. |
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| ▲ | vjvjvjvjghv 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | "Until he gets to Mars, then it's 24.66." That's a cool life hack! Venus is even better with 5832 |
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| ▲ | lazide 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Eh, even the ‘taking’ in this example isn’t so simple. By spending that $1, you’ve also given a farmer (plus middle men, plus a retailer) $1 they otherwise wouldn’t have had - and relieved them of an apple they already have too many of. The big ‘taking’ events are when things are destroyed without an exchange of value (aka if those farmers can’t sell the apples because a new law passes, or there is a disease event, or the like), or where a market is cornered/controlled/manipulated to the extent someone is forced to sell for an artificially induced (lower) price, or sell at an artificially induced (higher) price. Smaller ‘taking’ events are when something is actually consumed, but that has to happen eventually, and someone paid for it to happen. Which means they also traded something else for that money (time, work, whatever). Otherwise, it’s numbers moving from one side of the book to the other. Things aren’t lost/destroyed, but are moving around. | | |
| ▲ | Epa095 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Money is not like mana in a game, it does not create things by itself. It is more similar to votes, each dollar is a vote into the economy for what should be created, and where the goods and services should go. And the more money you have the more votes you have. So yes, he payes for the apple, and that's good. But the apple existed, and would be sold to someone else if he had not bought it. The accumulation of wealth does centralise power over the economy, what gets produced, and how it gets consumed. | | |
| ▲ | lesuorac 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, there's an economist comment on "We can afford everything that we produced". Like when the Apple is produced it's not because a dollar bill was sowen into the ground. The actual inputs of production are not money but money is the lubricant that allows the goods and services to flow around in the economy. We always run into the situation where goods and services are produced and not demanded and that causes them to no longer be produced but the lack of money didn't cause their existence no more than money produced them in the first place. Without it, societies had to have informal debts where you knew you helped your neighbor harvest crops so they would later do something for you (or perhaps you helped them harvest their crops because they provided shelter). That whole barter shit is made up. | |
| ▲ | lazide 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Eh, that is overly reductive. There would not be so many orchards or apple farmers growing apples if they could not exchange those apples for goods and services they wanted effectively. At the level of a large scale apple orchard, money is the only thing that works effectively for that. If people only grew enough apples that they wanted to eat, most people would be unable to get apples, and most apple lovers would be spending a lot of time they could be doing something else trying to grow apples. Overall edible apples would be dramatically lower, even non-existent at some places/times. For example, imagine the shitshow if people had to refine their own gas, or barter/trade for it directly. Zero chance 99% of society would be able to do that. Same with miners and raw materials, machine manufacturers and machines, solar panel manufacturers and solar panels, etc. etc. Money itself isn’t a good/service, but it makes the act of making/exchanging/selling/etc. easy and possible at scale. Which is valuable on its own. And since it provides a generic ‘value’ proxy for all goods/services within the economy, if anything it is the most consistently valuable thing in a functioning economy - it’s a wildcard for value. This does have a limit of course - too much money in too short/concentrated an area causes all sorts of crazy things to happen, as the induced effort/incentive to produce something outstrips the realistic ability to do so, causing escalating ‘money fights’ for the same goods, as the value of the goods starts to dwarf the perceived value of the money itself. (Inflation) Just like too little money in too concentrated an area/time causes crazy things to happen because the perceived value of the money itself starts to outweigh the actual value of the transacted goods, and transactions can start to grind to a halt in an effort to conserve the increasingly valuable money itself. (Deflation) | | |
| ▲ | Epa095 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | All you say is true. I never argued for the irrelevance of money. The voting power into the economy is extremely important, and it plays a vital role in the orchestration of the real economy (the part actually producing stuff and services). But it is not such that billionaires provide some value with their consumption (they can provide value in other ways though). Yes, for the individual Yatch-producer (or farmer) is it nice that they get to sell their product, but for the economy at large all it does is move production-resourced from other things which could otherwise be produced to the production of yatches(or whatever the billionaire wants). So yes, the billionaire does not take from the farmer. But he does take from the economy at large (in the same way as my consumption does, but to an extremely different degree). | | |
| ▲ | lazide 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Billionaires don’t generally become billionaires by spending a lot of money on watches or apples or the like. They become billionaires (generally) by owning things and making those things more valuable in other people’s eyes. The vast majority of Elon Musks wealth, for instance, is in stock of Tesla, SpaceX, X, etc. It’s an entirely different kind of situation, because the wealth is generally due to other people’s estimates of the productive output/wealth generation of those assets increasing over time. In the musk example, it would be like if someone bought and then came in and funded the expansion of a big apple orchard that previously no one had ever heard of, and then made it internationally famous so that everyone wanted to be a part of it - and sold shares in that orchard to people. Now people are eating more of that orchards apples, everyone values that orchard more, and now what previously he owned but was cheap is now worth a lot. That is legitimate value creation, as much as you might hate him or the process. If he did it by burning down other orchards, he would be a criminal. But like in the spacex case (or Tesla case), it’s pretty hard to argue that is what happened. Maybe some light fraud here and there, at most. It mostly came from a lot of salesmanship and light/moderate gaslighting, but they are legitimately valuable companies - albeit maybe shouldn’t rationally be at the P/Es they are. But he is making the irrational happen. And that is making a lot of people money that otherwise wouldn’t, and making something happen that otherwise wouldn’t. Those people are very happy he is doing what he is doing. For the alternative, see the USSR. I’ve known people who lived in that system, and it was terrible. |
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| ▲ | CGMthrowaway 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agreed. Unfortunately humans are hardwired to compare themselves to others. |
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| ▲ | aprilthird2021 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So much so that even if the quality of life of the lowest improves greatly, if the quality of life of everyone around them improves even more rapidly, they will feel worse off, not better off | | |
| ▲ | CGMthrowaway 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | "You don't have to run faster than the bear to get away. You just have to run faster than the guy next to you." Because on one level, we are all just competing for finite resources - especially quality females - economics is in that context an ordinal competition, not cardinal.[1] But on another level, it's the mutual cooperation, wealth creation from nothing (making the "finite" a little less finite and a little more infinite), etc that allows us to advance both as a society and as individuals. [1]There is an interesting tie into Mises here if I wanted to rabbit hole it (value is subjective, not measurable in cardinal units, and exists only in the mind as a ranked preference of options) |
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| ▲ | thrance 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is extremely reductionist of leftwing politics and ideas, and I sincerely hope you are not basing your political orientation from that. Wealth inequality is power inequality, which in a society leads to terrible outcomes for the majority. |
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| ▲ | wyre 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >I’d argue focusing on wealth inequality is precisely the wrong approach. Okay, so whats the argument? Wealth inequality and the QoL of the lowest wealth individuals are intrinsically linked, because we live under systems of government with powers of taxation and goals to increase the QoL of their citizens. At what point does the poorest become wealthy enough that immense levels of wealth-hoarding, especially by individuals, is okay? I cannot believe with a good conscience that at any point it becomes okay, unless we are all living in a utopia. If you don't agree with socialism, that is what it is, but to care about the QoL of the poorest without wanting actual support networks for those people isn't rational and seems more like moral posturing. |
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| ▲ | 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | jimkleiber 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm reflecting more these days on what I call "trust inequality." I'm curious how much trust in each other relates to wealth. Any thoughts? |
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| ▲ | CGMthrowaway 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | What does trust inequality mean to you? | | |
| ▲ | jimkleiber 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not sure yet, curious to reflect on it more. But initial take is that some environments people trust each other more. Trusting intentions, actions, words, ability. For example, a low-trust environment would probably be most prisons. High-trust might be a neighborhood where people don't lock their doors. I remember reading a World Bank economist saying that we might be able to explain the difference in GDP per capita between the US and a place like Somalia based on how much people trust each other. How mistrust can add so much friction to interactions. | | |
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| ▲ | globular-toast 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's exactly what someone who isn't poor would say. |
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| ▲ | hearsathought 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > A better approach would be to look at the quality of life of the poorest. But "quality of life" is relative. What is it relative to? The "quality of life" of other humans. There may be other metrics, but certainly wealth inequality has to feature prominently in any discussion of "quality of life". No? Also "quality of life" is subjective whereas wealthy inequality is objective. Hard to define and masure "quality of life". Easy to measure and compare wealth. Edit: Instead of mindlessly downvoting, why not just offer up other metrics or define "quality of life" and how to measure "quality of life". |
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| ▲ | SilverElfin 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agree. Focusing on the inequality bit feels closer to envy. But if the quality of life or something like inflation adjusted wealth is going up for everyone, or if it is above some acceptable minimum, then is it really a problem? Or just a reflection of how concentrated things can be in a technologically advanced world? |
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| ▲ | kuerbel 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I’m from Europe, and that’s what I focus on when talking about inequality: even if everyone’s living standards are rising, extreme wealth concentration can erode social cohesion, limit access to essential services, and distort political influence. You seem to view this through an American lens, very focused on individual opportunity, while to me it's about fairness, shared responsibility, and the health of society. | | |
| ▲ | vjvjvjvjghv 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think it's not even the billionaires that are the biggest problem. It's more like the top 10-20% that are driving up housing prices and many other things. They are a large enough group that it makes sense to mostly cater to them which is something we already see in most new apartments being higher end, less and less cheap cars on the market, no small houses to buy, restaurant prices shooting up, concert tickers becoming crazy expensive and so on. Las Vegas used to be the place for the average guy to fun. In the last few years they have publicly stated that they don't want that population anymore but want more of the upper end. All this leads to a system that favors the top 10-20% who can afford things, own assets like stocks and real estate, get better education for their kids and leaves the rest of the polulation out in the cold. | | |
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| ▲ | TFYS 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is criticizing dictatorships just envy? Because wealth inequality is the same thing as power inequality. Wealth doesn't just mean more goods to consume, it means power, and that power is mostly used to gain even more wealth and power. Eventually we'll have power concentration similar to a real dictatorship. Opposing such a future is not envy. | |
| ▲ | computerthings 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | roflyear 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I don't think many look at wealth inequality in isolation, it's usually accompanied by how people are starving. E.g. "over 20 people die from malnutrition in the US but we have over 900 billionaire's" - e.g. each billionaire would probably only have to give $300k each (equiv to what the average tax payer gives to the defense budget each year) to prevent most deaths in the US due to lack of food - etc. |
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| ▲ | solveit 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I get the feeling that you're winging the specific numbers because they're spectacularly incoherent. But anyway, the United States is extremely rich and has essentially no big problems that can be solved by a small amount (say, a few billion) of money. The problems are either so big that it would take trillions to solve (supporting aging population etc), or blocked by something other than money (politics, regulations, etc). The big problems that can be solved just by throwing a few billion at them are solved quite easily by either the government or by private entities like the Gates Foundation. | | |
| ▲ | rizzom5000 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | In practice, it seems that politics generally takes precedence over problem solving. If you look into the psychology of it, neither politicians nor voters are really incentivized to solve big problems. This is especially true for big problems that will take more than an election cycle to solve. It seems to me that it would be easy to support an argument that suggests more big problems could be solved if incentives were better aligned toward problem solving and if competent people, not professional politicians, were chosen to solve them. |
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| ▲ | gishh 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | 883 billion divided by 200 million is like 4 grand. How do you figure each taxpayer pays 300k/yr in taxes to the defense budget? | | |
| ▲ | Spooky23 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | You make your currency the reserve currency, tax the world by inflating it while restricting circulation, print money, then borrow. When people or countries potentially disrupt the equilibrium, kill them. | | |
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| ▲ | Workaccount2 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the US, the poorest people suffer from an obesity epidemic. Virtually no one is starving in the US anymore, besides mental health problems or other edge cases creating it. | | |
| ▲ | gopher_space 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Volunteering at a food bank in any large city will change your perspective. If you’re not where the rubber meets the road your knowledge of a system will always be incomplete and inaccurate. Literal trade secret of S Class developers, you’re welcome. | |
| ▲ | HumblyTossed 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The poor are food insecure. This leads to obesity not because they have access to an abundance of food but because their access to food is not stead, leading to over eating to compensate, and the food they can afford is not healthy. | | |
| ▲ | akoboldfrying 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > the food they can afford is not healthy Are you really claiming that it's cheaper to buy an appetite-satisfying amount of unhealthy food (chips/sweets/snacks/fast food) than fresh vegetables and staples like rice or potatoes? Serious question. | | |
| ▲ | miltonlost 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, both cheaper and more accessible and easier to eat without having to spend the time (which the working poor don't have) to then cook the raw foods. They're called food deserts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert | | |
| ▲ | akoboldfrying 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thanks for the link. I agree that preparation time is an important consideration. I do think that the food desert criterion (> 1.6km to the nearest supermarket in urban centres) seems very restrictive -- this would make half of most suburbs "food deserts" in the affluent western country where I live. I find the more recent concept of "food swamps", also explained on that page, to be a (perhaps unwitting) direct challenge to the theory that absence of nearby healthy food is the root cause: > A related concept is the phenomenon of a food swamp, a recently coined term by researchers who defined it as an area with a disproportionate number of fast food restaurants (and fast food advertising) in comparison to the number of supermarkets in that area.[13] The single supermarket in a low-income area does not, according to researchers Rose and colleagues, necessitate availability nor does it decrease obesity rates and health risks If this claim is true -- that is, if areas with 1 nearby supermarket have obesity rates no better than areas with 0 -- then it's essentially impossible to blame health outcomes on the availability of healthy food nearby. If an area has nearby supermarkets, it is much harder to make the case that obesity is purely the result of external factors outside a person's control. |
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| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | One of the things you learn quickly when you look at these kind of problems is that they’re not so easy to solve with money. The budget for SNAP, the US’s primary food benefits program, is about $100 billion; the additional $270 million you propose would be a tiny drop in the bucket. |
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