| > I was expecting [...] like doing an interview every six months Incidentally, I hear advice like that (especially a variation, of "practice" interviews) on HN, but I really wish people wouldn't do that. Actually, please don't do this resource burning with startups or other SMBs, unless it's clear they want to burn resources. But feel free to burn the resources of FAANGs, who mostly created the idea that interviews should be a series of performance rituals that you have to practice and refresh on. (Though the related phenomenon, of techbro frequent job-hopping, wasn't the fault of FAANGs. It seemed to start during the dotcom boom, pre-Google, especially in the Bay Area, AFAICT, where a lot of people were chasing the most promising rapid IPO. At the time, the rumors/grumbling I was hearing from the Bay Area made me want to do a startup in Cambridge/Boston instead, just to avoid that culture. After the dotcom IPO gold rush ended, it seemed that job-hopping for big pay boosts and promotions became a thing, and that job-hopping culture never went away. But I don't think we'll find much team loyalty anywhere anymore, not from companies nor from colleagues, so that's no longer a reason I'd avoid the Bay Area specifically.) |
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| ▲ | atherton94027 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Actually, please don't do this resource burning with startups or other SMBs, unless it's clear they want to burn resources Startups are fine scheduling candidates for 5-6 rounds of interviews, they should be fine with the occasional tire-kicker | | |
| ▲ | neilv a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Startups are fine scheduling candidates for 5-6 rounds of interviews, Not all startups are like that, and you might not know in advance. Though, incidentally, I did find one about a month ago, and I will take this moment of inspiration to complain about it, constructively. I bowed out of an imminent offer, because I thought that the CTO's gauntlet of evaluation steps was a sign of the day-to-day I should expect: that I would only be valued like an untrusted junior commodity worker. (I have a lot of experience, my detailed resume shows that, and I'd been patient and met more than halfway with the process.) Meanwhile, the initial pitch about why I might want to work there had worn off, after 5+ calls and a takehome. I wasn't going to invest any more time+energy+soul, submitting to the final grilling/hazing step, of a job I no longer wanted. ProTip: Unless you are a FAANG, or are paying FAANG-like money, don't act like one towards prospective hires/colleagues. Otherwise, you should expect to hire only people who are moderately good at interviewing (good enough to pass your nonsense, but not the nonsense of the people who pay more). And you should expect them to hop without loyalty, because you do FAANG arrogance and nonsense, without paying for the privilege. | |
| ▲ | jay_kyburz a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can't know your market worth without putting yourself on the market. |
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| ▲ | ghaff a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's probably some happy-ish medium of people toughing it out through a bad situation they don't feel they can change--and jumping at the first instance of itchy feet (which is admittedly harder at the moment). Not sure when the job-hopping culture--especially on the west coast--really came in. I do associate it with post-dot com but I'd really have to look at the data. Certainly wasn't really true pre dot-com at large tech employers. | |
| ▲ | neofrommatrix a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Honestly, if companies cared enough about the interviewees time as well, people wouldn’t do this. I was looking for a few months, and companies put you through the wringer of 6-9 interviews these days. Two should tell you whether a candidate is a good fit or not. Then there’s the case interviews where candidates put in dozens of hours prepping decks and what not, and then get rejected without any feedback at all. And this was exclusively at SMBs and startups. At least, the FAANG companies have structure and you know what to expect. | |
| ▲ | bdangubic a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t think SWEs realize just how many companies out there will look at a resume of a job hopper (even if there is 10 years at FAANG, say 2 at each) and outright reject the candidate on those grounds. | | |
| ▲ | fn-mote a day ago | parent | next [-] | | You’re hiring a job hopper because they have skills you need NOW. They are job hopping because they want high level compensation and maybe a position on an high-impact team, instead of being sidelined and powerless against the disrespect of their manager. Your company can make those work together. I’m not saying every job hopper is the right hire. I am offering a reason they get hired anyway (availability!) and leave anyway (respect and $$). | | |
| ▲ | bdangubic 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | “they have skills you have NOW” is exactly like saying “she/he cute NOW I need to get married” :) Needing something now is a recipe for disaster and I am happy I never needed (nor will need) anyone now |
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| ▲ | caminante a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not true. The talent view is that this candidate is in demand by peers, and it's the candidate's choice to put in a full 2y and leave early before vesting. | | |
| ▲ | bdangubic a day ago | parent [-] | | true because I am talking from personal experience (30 years of it, 10 in position making hiring decisions). and these are jobs you really really want | | |
| ▲ | caminante a day ago | parent [-] | | Respectfully, didn't you just reject such reasoning 2 days ago with a valid counterargument by you? [0] Except this time, you didn't provide any rationale. Scratching someone out for being an alleged job hopper on the surface is pre-mature optimization for hiring talent. What is your concern that you can't mitigate? e.g., call their referrals, backload their comp, etc. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45830434 | | |
| ▲ | bdangubic 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am building a team to play with for a long haul, not grabbing someone for a pick up game cause we are one player short. the best analogy I can give is that at work I (and many companies) are looking for a marriage, not a one-night stand. no matter what your technical provess is, it takes a while for you to learn the domain and get gelled with the team. While this is happening, we are all putting a significant effort to make this happen. if you then turn around and leave the entire has wasted a whole bunch time/effort and even if you are some “rock star” SWE we lose | | |
| ▲ | caminante 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Not trying to be difficult, but you're not really addressing my question. Why can't you address this with mitigants I mentioned? It sounds like you do some of that with "other non-$ comp" (mandatory PTO, parental leave,...) that's use it or lose it, but those are table stakes these days. I love the idea of thinking about a long term marriage and contracting accordingly, but at some point it's a leap of faith. Your bias has a presumably unforced handicap. Losing that 100x programmer may not matter to your business/personal goals to make GOOD wealth accumulation, but it will hurt your changes to go from GOOD to GREAT outcomes. | |
| ▲ | neilv 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That sounds very sensible, for some of the better kinds of companies. How do you handle retention, once you "marry" an employee? If the manager retired, would the company keep nurturing that? | | |
| ▲ | bdangubic 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | great question. weeding out people up front that are not team players and job hop goes a loooooong way. once you immediately root that out the rest of it: - great team - competitive compensation - maternity / paternity leave - mandatory pto |
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| ▲ | bongodongobob a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Absolutely. I had a stretch of consulting gigs for a couple years and I recently was denied an interview because they "didn't like the short periods of employment" even though they were specifically indicated as short term contract jobs! | | |
| ▲ | RealityVoid a day ago | parent [-] | | I understand ever having done consulting is seen as a red flag now, so that might be more to blame. | | |
| ▲ | neilv a day ago | parent [-] | | A recruiter gave me the terse feedback about "too long consulting" from one company. (And it didn't fit any rational objection I could think of, if they'd actually looked at the resume, beyond triggering on a keyword.) I think a root problem is that many companies are bad at hiring, and many of those get confidently bad at it. In institutional emergent behavior terms, as well as individual actor terms. | | |
| ▲ | caminante a day ago | parent [-] | | > I think a root problem is that many companies are bad at hiring, and many of those get confidently bad at it. Precisely. And who are we kidding? I know a lot of people that have performance objectives to grow $ or cut $. I don't know anyone who has a comp clawback for making bad hires. Spending too long (vague) consulting for one company doesn't measure your competencies or value you bring to the team. I bet they just needed a reason to knock you out and shortlist the hiring manager's preferred candidate who they don't know personally, but know via close friend referral. | | |
| ▲ | neilv 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | One of the hiring problems that companies face is they're now flooded with resumes. And the easiest thing to do is have many false-positive declines. That alone can explain lots of random declines. This can also dovetail with illegal hiring discrimination: when there's an exec/manager who doesn't want to hire women, people with kids, people likely to feel pressure to have kids soon, military veterans, ethnic groups, religious groups, etc... it's really easy for those resumes to be among the ones quickly discarded, with or without pretext. It's plausibly deniable, because of all the random declines of good resumes. | | |
| ▲ | caminante 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Based on the parent's confirmation, this is the implicit reason. They're screening job-hoppers as a "rule of thumb" that shrinks the candidate funnel at the cost of losing out on 100x programmers or 1-10x programmers that can commit to 2y. I don't get the cost-benefit other than time and a lack of need for 100x programmers. |
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