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kaydub 4 hours ago

Because juniors don't know when they're being taken down a rabbit hole. So they'll let the LLM go too deep in its hallucinations.

I have a Jr that was supposed to deploy a terraform module I built. This task has been hanging out for a while so I went to check in on them. They told me the problem they're having and asked me to take a look.

Their repo is a disaster, it's very obvious claude took them down a rabbit hole just from looking. When I asked, "Hey, why is all this python in here? The module has it self contained" and they respond with "I don't know, claude did that" affirming my assumptions.

They lack the experience and they're overly reliant on the LLM tools. Not just in the design and implementation phases but also for troubleshooting. And if you're troubleshooting with something that's hallucinating and you don't know enough to know it's hallucinating you're in for a long ride.

Meanwhile the LLM tools have taken away a lot of the type of work I hated doing. I can quickly tell when the LLM is going down a rabbit hole (in most cases at least) and prevent it from continuing. It's kinda re-lit my passion for coding and building software. So that's ended up in me producing more and giving better results.

victor9000 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I don't know, claude did that

I'm the type of reviewer that actually reads code and asks probing questions, and I've heard this from junior and senior devs alike. It's maddening how people say this with a straight face and expect to keep their jobs. If people are pushing code they don't understand, they're liability to their team, product, and employer.

tlonny 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The rank disrespect of somebody asking you to review something they haven't even looked at is eye watering.

I feel like AI-induced brain-rot of engineers is inevitable. Unless we see AI leapfrog into something close to AGI in the future (certainly not ruling this out), I think there will be very lucrative careers available to engineers who can maintain a balanced relationship with AI.

boringg 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is going to happen with higher frequency - buckle up!

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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qazxcvbnmlp 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"I don't know Claude did that" isn't a bad thing in and of itself... If someone is spending a bunch of time on code that Claude could have done and easily verified it was correct, they are going to move slower and produce less useful things of value than someone who cares about reading every line of code.

kace91 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Any situation where you’re submitting under your signature code to production without knowing what it does should be at the very least cause for a talk.

I’m kinda shocked that this even has to be said.

an hour ago | parent [-]
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behringer 4 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The policeman says to the judge, on the stand "I don't know why my sworn affidavit says that, your honor. But I can write twice as many affidavits now so it's all for the best."

AndrewDucker 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you "don't know" then how could you have "easily verified it was correct"?

ponector an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you don't understand you code how you can be sure it's correct? You actually are pushing it into your colleagues who will verify and fix the code later.

TeMPOraL 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

Testing.

The only thing that changed with AI is that the narrative went from "you can't always know perfectly what every part of the program does" to "don't even try".

oblio an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You, sir, have "executive" written all over you.

shaky-carrousel 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unfortunately, the type of work you hate doing is perfect for a junior. Easy tasks to get a hold on the system.

morkalork 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>How'd you get so good at debugging and navigating code you've never seen before?

>Because I spent a couple internships and a whole year as a junior debugging, triaging and patching every single issue reported by other developers and the QA team

Was I jealous that the full time and senior devs got to do all the feature work and architecture design? Yes. Am I a better developer having done that grind? Also yes.

reactordev 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yup, sounds like a great opportunity to show you’re senior by mentoring.

bayarearefugee 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Which will (sadly) offer you zero extrinsic benefit at almost every job, and will often actually count against you as a waste of time relative to the vast majority of productivity metrics that companies actually use.

godelski an hour ago | parent | next [-]

There's a lot of benefits you get by mentoring. When you have to teach you're forced to think more deeply about problems, see it from different angles, and revisit questions you had when learning but tabled at that time. That last one is pretty common. There's always questions you have when learning that you have to avoid because you don't have the knowledge to answer yet, because they would take you down too deep a rabbit hole. But later you have the experience to navigate those problems.

Personally, I've learned a ton while teaching. It's given me many new ideas and insights. But I'm obviously not alone in this. Even Feynman talks about how teaching results in better learning

mystifyingpoi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which is unfortunately very true. I think, that in a healthy organization such kind of mentoring requires extremely well defined boundaries and rules. Can I spend 1h of my time explaining basic stuff to a junior, who will then be able to finish his task in 2h instead of 8h? Mathematically this is a win for the company. But economically, maybe that junior dev should be fired.

xp84 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

That's the problem -- except in the rare type of org that thinks past quarterly or annual results and thus values training up a pipeline to be the future seniors -- economically speaking, all the junior devs should be fired, and the simple tasks they can do are the same set of tasks that can be accomplished by a senior at the helm of AI at 10-50x the speed.

reactordev an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Someone mentored you, pay it forward. If you think you got where you are entirely on your own, you need therapy.

TeMPOraL an hour ago | parent [-]

Oh come on. Plenty of us here never had any form of direct mentorship at work or otherwise. It's not unusual when you pick up the trade as a hobby in your teens, and in terms of programming and technical skills (which is what we're discussing here), you stopped being a junior before getting your first job.

Myself, I learned from many folks on IRC and ol' phpBB boards, and I helped others on IRC and said phpBB boards in return; almost all of that was before graduating. That, and books, lots of books, and even more time spent just reading code online and writing my own. None of that hardly qualifies as "mentoring".

reactordev 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

>you stopped being a junior before getting your first job.

No, that was your hubris thinking you had the chops. We didn’t hire you because of your skills, we hired you because of your age and aptitude to learn. That’s how college recruitment works. If you didn’t go that route, you were still looked at as a junior. Your ego clouds your view.

aeternum 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Mentorship is unfortunately broken because gone are the days of apprenticeships.

If you find a great mentor, do everything you can to learn quickly then jump ship to big tech and cash in.

qnleigh 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is kind of sad. I'm probably missing context here, but surely it's not necessary to rush out of a good working relationship with a good mentor. The most important things you'll learn from a good mentor can't be learned in a rush (like prioritization, project management, how to be a good mentor...).

In any case, I would replace 'jump ship' with 'pay it forward.'

pjmlp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Depends on the country, they are pretty much alive across many European countries.

Here are two examples,

A German site to search for technical schools with apprenticeship,

https://www.ausbildung.de/

The same for Portugal

https://www.escolasprofissionais.com/

ljm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A great mentor won’t waste their time on someone cynically using their time to cash out at Meta. Such a person can just get a CS degree and launch into Amazon for that.

Big Tech are just the IT enterprises of the modern day. It’s not where the action is and that experience is not so hot on the CV when it comes to early stage development.

pydry 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There's also not much in it for the mentor other than the warm glow in the heart.

TeMPOraL 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Mentoring is a different kind of work than coding. Like senior+ level in some companies, it's just faux management - people work, with all the expectations and responsibilities of the non-technical track, but none of the status and privileges.

catlifeonmars 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I don't know, claude did that

also likes to blame shop accidents on the table saw

dotnet00 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The deciding factor for being able to effectively utilize LLMs and dodge hallucinations is ability to read code and intuition for how a solution should look. I think juniors are especially hesitant to just dig into understanding some source code unless they have no other choice, e.g. preferring to wait on email response from the author of the code over piecing things together.

This makes LLM tools so tempting, you don't even have to wait on the email response anymore! But of course, this is basically going in blind, and it's no wonder that they end up in hallucination mazes.

aunty_helen an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s like having a malicious mentor. But the frequency of which I’m bailing on reviews on the first line due to stupid stuff that has made it to a commit is quite stunning.

“Oh I thought that would be useful at some point so I just committed it.”

Beating it into developers that they need to review their own work they submit before asking someone else to waste time is the best way I’ve found so far.

3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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kromokromo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think a lot of the problems lies in their prompting. AI is usually at its worst when just saying «deploy terraform module». And off it goes spitting out code.

What they should have done as juniors was to have a conversation about the topic and task first. «Help me understand …» learning and planning is especially important with LLM coding.

SubiculumCode 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't write terribly complex things: Just data processing pipelines for neuroimaging, but I know I get good results because I take time being specific in my prompts, saying what I want, but also what I don't want, suggesting certain tools, what options I want available, how I want logs, etc. I really does help it to know what you want and relaying that with an effortful prompt.