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monero-xmr 6 hours ago

There is a bizarre reverence and worship for China I have observed with some Americans. Yes, you can build things faster and have smooth 5% YoY growth if you don’t have property rights and manipulate the statistics

jordanb 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I once heard someone say "China is the only country in the world who knows on Jan 1st what their GDP for the year is going to be."

2muchcoffeeman 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You’re simply mistaking the acknowledgment of their successes as reverence. I don’t have to agree with someone or something to give them credit.

monero-xmr 5 hours ago | parent [-]

The very reason that China can bulldoze thousands of homes for a new highway or train, are the very things that would make an American scream “fascism” at an authoritarian government

stevenwoo 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There have been several posts on HN in my recollection about the building of highways in urban areas in the USA over the objections of local residents, it's just if they are poor or minorities they historically do not have the political power to stop these projects, and the private sector makes a bundle, which is the recipe for a lot of things that go wrong in the USA.

Here's one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9561895

There's a whole sector of articles about how racism fueled the highway boom in American cities, when those people affected had lot less right to vote. https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/984784455/a-brief-history-of-... It's still happening https://apnews.com/article/environment-houston-pollution-71c... But the average HN reader probably does not live in such a neighborhood nor know anyone who does.

kg 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Bulldozing homes to make room for a highway or train is an American tradition, even if we do it less often now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses#Criticism_and_The...

> Moses's critics charge that he preferred automobiles over people. They point out that he displaced hundreds of thousands of residents in New York City and destroyed traditional neighborhoods by building multiple expressways through them. The projects contributed to the ruin of the South Bronx and the amusement parks of Coney Island, caused the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Giants Major League Baseball teams to relocate to Los Angeles and San Francisco respectively, and precipitated the decline of public transport from disinvestment and neglect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain_in_the_United_S...

throwaway173738 4 hours ago | parent [-]

There used to be an entire road and tenement houses in Seattle where I5 is now. They’ve also taken all or part of many properties abutting the new rail project.

more_corn 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don’t think I have any illusions. I’d never want to live under Chinese censorship, lack of civil rights, the weird errors caused by centralized economic control. But I can also acknowledge some of the things they do well.

Having a nuanced view of a complex topic is probably essential for proper understanding.

ponector 3 hours ago | parent [-]

How about this:

I’d never want to live under Trump's censorship, lack of civil rights, the weird errors caused by centralized economic control

Nervhq an hour ago | parent [-]

Luckily if enough Americans agree with you in a few more years you can vote him out. Can you say the same for Winnie the poo (xi)

I have a feeling however, that since the leftist priorities these days are so ridiculous to the regular voter that you'll just get another republican president

hearsathought 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There is a bizarre reverence and worship for China I have observed with some Americans.

No. There isn't. It's just that we've gotten sick of the bullshit and lies from the anti-china propagandists like you.

> Yes, you can build things faster and have smooth 5% YoY growth if you don’t have property rights and manipulate the statistics

If they can build things faster, what need is there to manipulate the statistics? If the chinese don't have property rights, then how come they own so much property?

When you and your kind spout such nonsense over and over again, people tend to get sick of it.

tuatoru 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"China" isn't "China". Like everywhere else, there's a maze of conflictiong incentives. The CCP measures regional governments on their stats. Gaming there. Regional governments measure administrative areas, ditto. More gaming. No stats can be trusted in a society that does not prize allegiance to the truth above all else.

theturtletalks 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Let’s say it how it is, this is the cost of freedom. Yes, China can build more quickly and has advanced more technologically, but it came at the cost of freedom. The degree of freedom is not something I’m fit to argue.

Now, there are those they believe the difference in freedom is worth that technological advancement. I’m not so sure.

COVID was a great example of this. China was able to slow the virus spreading faster than the US since they were literally locking people into their homes. In the US, this didn’t happen because of the rights we have.

ipaddr an hour ago | parent [-]

China's system created the virus, allowed the virus to spread rapidly . Then arrested people warning about it. Locked people in blocks causing more deaths, made up stats and censored the press.

Plus their vaccine didn't work.

I wouldn't call them more technology advanced. Good at controlling people and information but bad at outcomes and process.

hearsathought 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> No stats can be trusted in a society that does not prize allegiance to the truth above all else.

What society, government or political entity prizes allegiance to truth above all else?

Truly you win the prize of the dumbest anti-china comment.

Our_Benefactors 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> If they can build things faster, what need is there to manipulate the statistics?

A lot to unpack here. You completely blipped over the part about “no property rights” which is pretty clear when you look at, for example, how their rail construction projects go. Choochoo, rail is coming through, time to move this village, no eminent domain payments necessary.

> If the chinese don't have property rights, then how come they own so much property?

If ownership of a half-finished concrete shell by a bankrupt construction firm on the 33rd floor is counted as “owning property”, then the statistics will look pretty good.

platinumrad 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Where did you get the idea that they don't make eminent domain payments?

hearsathought 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> You completely blipped over the part about “no property rights” which is pretty clear when you look at, for example, how their rail construction projects go. Choochoo, rail is coming through, time to move this village

Better than exterminating the natives to build railroads? Using your logic we don't have property rights in the US either.

> no eminent domain payments necessary.

Doesn't explain nail houses though.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/19/asia/gallery/china-nail-house...

> If ownership of a half-finished concrete shell by a bankrupt construction firm on the 33rd floor is counted as “owning property”, then the statistics will look pretty good.

Yes. 1.4 billion people live in half-finished concrete shells.

Come up with something better. You guys are getting boring repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

ipaddr an hour ago | parent | next [-]

China has the same property rights as America because the US built railroads over a hundred years ago and had wars with natives.

What property rights are you expecting America to grant non citizens who never build anything?

You lost the debate awhile back. I wonder when you will realize it.

skinnymuch 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

“You lost the debate a while back”.

If you are downvoted for political stuff especially when it relates to non-western things, that’s a great indicator you didn’t lose any discussion.

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
skinnymuch 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Ghost cities have been shown as western made up cope.

China is not individualist in a selfish way like the west. Collectivism is a good concept.

Thank god their property rights are not barbaric like the west.

bamboozled 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems to be a lot of bizarre worship in the USA these days.

cpursley 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

90% of Chinese own their own properties vs 65% of Americans, so there's that. Regarding property rights, I'm not sure how it works there but we've all seen the malls and highways that diverted around homes where owners were unwilling to sell out. Also, they actually have functional public infrastructure and have brought something like 800 million out of abject poverty. Are ahead of us in several spaces and about to pass us or at least equal us in others. Obviously I'm not arguing for that type of top down authoritarian system, but this is the objective reality. What's bizarre actually is all the denialism and copium over China - should we not be glad that they are doing better than they were 30 years ago and much more liberal than before?

Scoundreller 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> 90% of Chinese own their own properties

By "own" you mean 70 year leases with ??? renewal conditions?

> Urban land use rights in Mainland China were typically granted for fixed terms: 70 years for residential, 50 years for office or industrial, and 40 years for commercial purposes. As these terms approach expiration, the question of renewal becomes paramount. The legal framework, primarily the Property Law and the Urban Real Estate Administration Law, provides a general outline but leaves specific implementation to local governments.

> Mainland China’s Property Law (Article 149) and The Civil Code of Mainland China (Article 359) guarantee automatic residential land use right renewals but provides no specific arrangement in respect of non-residential terms. Currently, without detailed implementation guidelines, local governments devise varied approaches, skewing valuations and unsettling investors. This uncertainty hinders market efficiency.

https://www.cushmanwakefield.com/en/greater-china/insights/b...

But yeah, you could argue that you have to pay property taxes in USA and if you don't, you'll eventually lose your land

monero-xmr 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Give the average person in china the opportunity to move to America, and vice versa, there is no comparison. China has done some things right but to pretend it is some model for America is absurd

reilly3000 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I would absolutely take a chance to live in China, but I wouldn’t expect to be welcomed there. Their tech, disposable income, food costs, etc are so superior to what we have today in US.

ipaddr an hour ago | parent [-]

Many Americans live in China. Give it a shot.

what-the-grump 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The average person in America is living paycheck to paycheck and has negative equity.

20 years ago you couldn’t see in Shanghai. Trump pulled back the clean air act, it’s not hard to see a trend. It’s also not hard to buy a ticket and see it yourself.

an hour ago | parent | next [-]
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cpursley 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Great point, I almost wrote that they’ve cleaned up pollution (of all types) by a lot and also are accomplish some impressive feats by regreening and pushing back desertification. Amazing things can happen when you get your peoples basic needs met (ie, they can focus on higher level stuff).

yibg 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a pretty outdated view of things too. Majority of chinese students return to china after getting their degree in the US.

cpursley 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yo, I literally pointed out that I’m not for this model. But thanks for the comment?