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shoo 4 days ago

What moral do you take away from this story?

Brendinooo 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Right up until the end I'd say it's a good illustration of the hedonic treadmill.

But I'm really not sure what to make of the ending.

> "Oh," he said, "she wants to become like God."

> "Go home. She is sitting in her filthy shack again."

This is ambiguous. The flounder simply acknowledges a change in state without saying whether he actually fulfilled the request or not.

If he rejected the request, then it's a tale about checking ambition, trying to be like God, etc.

But if he accepted the request? Then it's advancing a very different idea of what God is like.

I wonder if the original German is equally ambiguous...

EDIT: I suppose she's not making the sun and moon rise, so maybe I'm overcomplicating it.

palmotea 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> But I'm really not sure what to make of the ending.

>> "Oh," he said, "she wants to become like God."

>> "Go home. She is sitting in her filthy shack again."

Jesus was poor and humble and God. Like, remember which cup the Holy Grail was in the test at the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?

She exactly got her wish, it just wasn't what she expected because she was a greedy fool.

Edit: and this take is interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45303908. It might even be a happy ending for her.

RajT88 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the New Testament, Jesus had a lot to say about wealth and power being bad. This feels like a reference to all that.

In my head, all that Sunday school I had internalized as a kid makes me think, "This is not the kind of church Jesus would preach at" when I see a really nice church where wealthy people attend.

Some Christians talk about "mammonites" or "the cult of mammon":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon

zubiaur 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Old too: But the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel; they said, “No! but we are determined to have a king over us, so that we also may be like other nations, and that our king may govern us and go out before us and fight our battles.”

Brendinooo 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think it's as simple as "wealth and power being bad". More that

- wealth and power are not reliable proxies for favor and righteousness (as many in Jesus's day thought)

- wealth and power come with unique temptations

Jesus also said "make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings" and there's a bunch of proverbs that talk about how the diligent prosper.

A lot of wealthy people are really generous.

IAmBroom 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think Jesus is really, really, really unequivocal about wealth being bad.

And Luke 16:9, which you quoted, is taken out of context.

> A lot of wealthy people are really generous.

Not so much that they give away all that they have, as Jesus commanded. So, more like "kinda really generous, but not enough that it hurts".

[I am an atheist, but I will not stand for antithetical repurposing of religious texts.]

Brendinooo a day ago | parent [-]

>And Luke 16:9, which you quoted, is taken out of context.

What context am I missing?

>Not so much that they give away all that they have, as Jesus commanded

Matthew 19:16-30, which you're quoting, is taken out of context.

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-jesus-teach-us-t...

potato3732842 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Pretty much every society ever has the same things to say about how wealth/power enables people to behave poorly.

dtf 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The punchline left me wondering why the wife didn't simply ask for something else after being returned to the filthy shack. Had she finally found contentment or enlightenment? Did the flounder finally call time?

the_gipsy 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We don't know exactly. Maybe the fish silently punished the wife. Maybe god would simply live a simple life.

Only God knows.

IAmBroom 4 days ago | parent [-]

Ooh, I like that possibility.

Maybe she spent a near-eternity in agony with all that power and responsibility, and wished it all away. "Genie...er, Fish, make me an all-powerful fish!!!"

graemep 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe the ambiguity is part of what makes it a good story?

bhaak 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some people are greedy and don't know when to stop when they have enough. The fisherman is notably not one of those people.

Older generations might have been most offended by the "becoming like God" part. The enchanted fish was willing to grant any wish that is in principle achievable by a human being, even the most ridiculous wish of becoming Pope.

But the moment the wish transcends that human realm it is turned down and punished.

I guess the theme of "becoming like God" resonates with the story from Adam and Eve's fall.

thomasmg 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

My interpretation is that the fish didn't actually turn down and punish, but fulfilled the wish. It's just that the fish thought: to be like God means to be humble. She asks to be like God, true godliness is humility. So she did get what she wanted, but not in the way she thought. (BTW I'm not religious in the sense I go to church a lot, and don't even necessarily believe in God, but I do share many of the values of religion.)

watwut 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> It's just that the fish thought: to be like God means to be humble.

In which religion is the God humble? It wont be Christianity for sure.

HankStallone 4 days ago | parent [-]

Being born to a human, growing up and living as one of them, and letting himself be tortured and killed by his own creation isn't humble?

You don't have to believe it, of course, but God humbling himself is pretty much the defining aspect of Christianity.

watwut 4 days ago | parent [-]

> Being born to a human, growing up and living as one of them, and letting himself be tortured and killed by his own creation isn't humble?

That is self sacrifice.

lblume 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

But surely humility is only one attribute of God, and not the most relevant one. Omnipotence and omniscience are typically listed as more important aspects of the divine.

thomasmg 4 days ago | parent [-]

It depends on the religion. In Christianity, Islam, and some "the universe is a simulation" theories: yes. In other religions, god is not all that powerful.

skobes 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interesting, you read it as if the fish said "You want to be like God? No, that's too far. Game over!"

But another reading is: God would have chosen the shack (grace to the humble, etc.) So she got her wish.

balamatom 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I was hoping for a "go home, she is as God", then he goes home and sees that she doesn't exist

neogodless 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, I think...

> And they are sitting there even today.

... hints strongly that once that wish was granted, she stopped wanting something different.

_bla_ 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I don’t think of it as punishment. She gets her wish granted, she just did not understand that God does not care about the kind of shallow riches the fisherman’s wife is aiming for.

dsmurrell 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That no matter how good your current dwelling is, your wife will always want upgrades.

gorjusborg 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unbounded greed will prevent you from enjoying the benefits of your life.

flux3125 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don't go above INT_MAX or you'll overflow back to -2147483648

immibis 4 days ago | parent [-]

Actually it's undefined behaviour. Undefined behaviour may legally include your castle growing wings and flying away to space.

atrew54231 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the point is that when one believes that having their desires fulfilled will bring them happiness, or an end to desire itsself, that the material circumstances in which that person lives are completely irrelevant. In the case of the wife, the suffering she experiences from not having her desires fulfilled is the same whether she is living in a filthy shack or whether she is god. Her internal state is identical in both situations, so her becoming god and her becoming a poor fisherman's wife are exactly the same from a phenomonological perspective. The same could be said for the man. His satisfaction was the same whether he was living in the shack or the palace. What changed for him was the burden of having these material things and asking for more, knowing it wouldn't ultimately make him or his wife happy.

Or it could mean that due to the transient nature of all material things, anything gained will invariably break down eventually. All desire leads to loss.

Maybe it's both. I think it's both.

clausecker 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you give in to an unreasonable person's demands, that person will demand more and more until it all comes crashing down.

booleandilemma 4 days ago | parent [-]

So when product comes to you with stupid requirements, push back!

housebear 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I read it as the fish returning her to her God-ordained state, as she was, from her magical-fish-given states of human appointed positions; that is, wealth and status coming from community rather than any kind of divine appointment—which is maybe also a Protestant dig at Papism?

potato3732842 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's a few potential pretty reasonable morals to draw from it that apply at the individual and various group levels.

The more jaded you are the less of them you'll reject but also the less of them you needed to be told.

Calavar 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you get into options trading, make sure to have a hard stopping point.

FergusArgyll 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the "straussian" reading is it's the husbands fault. He knows he's doing the wrong thing but he can't say no.

1) Listen to your conscience & speak up unambiguously

2) Something like "Victim blaming is correct in moderation"?

I don't know if I agree with that but it seems like an interpertation

carlosjobim 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don't get married.

moffkalast 4 days ago | parent [-]

Don't get married... to a greedy psychopath.

serf 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

being a deity is a crap job, aim for Pope.

oulipo2 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Am I the only one to read it as the fact that God is supposed to be humble, so that's why when she asks to be like God she's back to the shackle?

moffkalast 4 days ago | parent [-]

Smart fish, got her on a technicality ;)

drewchew 4 days ago | parent [-]

Classic genie move

4 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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