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| ▲ | mixmastamyk 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Konsole is my least favorite terminal because of all the klutter. Have to remove several buttons, and the context menu with hundreds of options can’t be simplified to my knowledge. | | |
| ▲ | WD-42 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This 100%. Just look at the screenshot on the KDE page for Konsole: https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ What's up with the massive amount of chrome used for nothing except new tab/copy/paste buttons? Is it really necessary to take up what could be used for 2+ extra lines of terminal output for a labeled Copy button? Compare it to gnome console, or any other terminal really, and you will get far more terminal output for the size of the window, as it should be. And it's not just Konsole. So many KDE apps have this same problem. Giant labeled buttons taking up space from the actual content, for things you will never use or have well established keyboard shortcuts already. | | |
| ▲ | sho_hn 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | In Konsole's defense, this is the actual default appearance of a Konsole window when you launch it for the first time in the current stable release: https://mero.ng/i/lWMWazUP.png The screenshot on the website has all sorts of optional bits enabled, and I would readily agree is not a good showcase. The reason all those optional bits exist is because you'd be surprised who ends up using a terminal emulator in a general purpose desktop GUI used in many large IT deployments. E.g. a lot of folks who are used to PuTTy on Windows and want a little GUI for SSH connections, and for them this is the game changer. The "try to show all the goods in your screenshot" mindset is really not a good one though, agree :) | | |
| ▲ | WD-42 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | https://imgur.com/a/konsole-vs-ghostty-tR4Otmy This is stock Konsole vs Ghostty. Notice Ghostty also has multiple tabs open. There is just so much waste in the Konsole UI. | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Stock yes. Just hide the toolbar. I don't like that either. Turn off main toolbar and session toolbar. | |
| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | mixmastamyk 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's better, but the toolbar/buttons could always be configured away. The real problem is the context menu. Has it been simplified or made configurable? | | |
| ▲ | Liquid_Fire 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Out of interest, what do you use the context menu for in a terminal emulator so often that it bothers you? I can't even remember the last time I opened it. | | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I hide all UI and use only the context menu, 90% of the time to open a new tab, 5% of the time to split a tab, and 4% of the time to bring up the config dialog. 1% to open a new window, though I'm often doing Ctrl+Alt+T for that recently. This is what I've done since SGI 4DWM Terminal (and ancient NT Command Prompt), and almost all other terminal emulators can be configured to do so. Konsole stands alone (to my knowledge) in its insistence on cruft all over the interface. The terminal widget itself seems fine. To be clear, I don't mind obscure options, but they should live in the control panel. See my cousin comment for more details. | | |
| ▲ | jraph 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | All these things have keyboard shortcuts If the context menu bothers you, it would seem worth it to use them for frequent actions. CTRL+Shift+T opens a new tab for instance. It's way more efficient anyway in an app that's so keyboard centric. I don't find that context menu so bad to be honest. If you use it often you should know where things are anyway. Overall I'm quite surprised at the hate Konsole receives in this HN thread. Removing the toolbars is two clicks away and only needs to be done once. Even the menu bar can be hidden. Such a konsole window would be just the terminal, no cruft, no UI elements. To me we are in the "some people will never be happy for no clear reasons" territory. I've been using it for years I'm very happy with it. Its search feature is awesome, and its ability to have infinite scroll history is very nice too, it has decent performance. The one terrible thing I have seen about konsole is that the toolbar buttons were highjacking the keyboard bindings in the terminal, but it was a bug, I think this is now fixed and a workaround was to remove the toolbar. | | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | When I'm making a new tab, usually I'm coming from the browser or file-manager, so my hand is already on the mouse. Am clicking on the term anyway. No other mainstream GUI term has these clutter issues. They are small issues to be sure, but unnecessary. | | |
| ▲ | account42 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | But surely you are going to use the keyboard once you have switched to the new tab? It's a terminal after all. | | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 3 days ago | parent [-] | | When I start typing I want to execute the new idea immediately. No other tabbed terminal (that I’ve used) prevents this besides konsole, simply because the context menu is (un)optimized to include the kitchen sink instead of the one item I want. Folks trying to talk me into a new workflow can’t succeed because I’m multiplatform. Gnome terminal, iTerm2, Win Terminal, etc. konsole is the oddball and least used of the group. Partly because the context menu is a mess. | | |
| ▲ | Liquid_Fire 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm actually surprised you're complaining about Konsole then, given iTerm2's context menu almost doesn't fit on my screen. |
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| ▲ | jraph 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Fair enough. I usually switch to the terminal using alt+tab. |
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| ▲ | eviks 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > To me we are in the "some people will never be happy for no clear reasons" territory. That's because you ignore/downplay the very clear reason of space waste expressed in the conversation. | | |
| ▲ | jraph 3 days ago | parent [-] | | No, I mentioned that this is solved with a couple of clicks to do once if you are bothered by this. I see few reasons to complain really. One could prefer having different defaults (and I would, actually), but it's not like their are awful neither. Had the toolbars been difficult or impossible to customize or remove, I wouldn't say, but here ulyou can make it look to your taste completely. The issue is a taste question and is a "meh" at best. | | |
| ▲ | eviks 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, that's the downplaying part. Configuring bad default away doesn't make a user happy the bad default existed and required wasting time fixing it (of course it's not a couple of clicks, that's also downplaying, you'd have to first acquire the knowledge that it's possible (not all UIs can be customized) and how to do it (e.g., some DEs require installing some DE Shell Extension to be able to find the relevant config)) | | |
| ▲ | jraph 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Defaults cannot always please every unique user. That's an impossible goal. It's fine that impossibly picky users get to click through a few settings once to set their environment to their liking. I'm one myself sometimes. I wonder if vocal people here who hate this minor (yes, I'll die on this hill) stuff so much took the time to even report this as an issue in KDE's bugtracker. Here's the link if it's not already done: https://bugs.kde.org | | |
| ▲ | eviks 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > Defaults cannot always please every unique user. That's an impossible goal. You're just continuing in your quest to ignore the issue. Just set the goal at "most users", that's fine, you'll still need to defend this actual screen waste to make an argument, but you can't hide behind a generic "can't please everyone" > hate There is no hate, you've made it up to make your argument sound better. > this minor (yes, I'll die on this hill) No one is looking at, let alone fighing, you on this imaginary hill. The other commenter explicitly said it's not a big issue. I also agree it's minor. Stop bringing more straws for your scarecrow! > took the time to even report this To waste it on a repeat of this argument with ~0 chance of a win? Again, you've made up that hate, so there is no motivation in doing that, a more productive use of that time is to use a better terminal (or just configure it away), so that's usually what happens |
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| ▲ | distances 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can eliminate that 90% by Ctrl+Shift+T. | | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Doesn't help when coming from a browser. Ctrl+Alt+T works without the Terminal in focus however. Ctrl+Shift+T needs me to click in the terminal first then go back to the keyboard. Waste of time. | | |
| ▲ | distances 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I almost always switch windows with Alt+Tab, not with a mouse, so it fits very well for that flow. Understandable if it doesn't do the trick for you though. | | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I’m well aware of all these hotkeys. The issue is I’m using the mouse with my browser, scrolling clicking etc. Reading gives me an idea so I click on my terminal that’s always open. This is the best time to open a tab imho, and have been doing it for decades. Thankfully there are a dozen terminals to choose from that don’t make konsole’s minor mistakes. (Although chances are they made others.) |
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| ▲ | weaksauce 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't think it's super complex with a ton of options any more. Just installed cachyos(arch based) kde plasma and the right click menu looks like this https://i.imgur.com/S59wy2H.png so either they are configuring away a lot of the complexity or the updates to it have been slimming. | | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 4 days ago | parent [-] | | - Four, no really four ways to copy... - Change encoding? I have never changed the encoding of my terminal, not once since first using a computer, circa 1982. UTF8-FTW. - Adjust scrollback, on the context menu? - If you hide the toolbar/menu I believe it adds the main menu to the context menu. And that is where the majority of the hundred options live. And at the end, where a Properties or Preferences entry should live. - Last but not least, no "New Tab" entry, which is the thing I use it for 90% of the time. | | |
| ▲ | weaksauce 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | double click the tab area and you get a new tab. ctrl-n gets you a new tab. i personally wouldn't ever use that feature. I like the extra modes of copying since they all have unique uses and prevent editing in cases. the encoding bit is odd yeah. adjust scrollback is not a common option i suppose. it would be nice to configure the right click menu more but that's not an option i see in many apps so it's a wash. I use the menu so i don't have those options. it may even be configurable via a file somewhere in .config... i haven't tried or been bothered by the defaults enough to do so. | |
| ▲ | jcelerier 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I am mainly an urxvt user but actually use konsole once in a while specially for this kind of advanced feature | |
| ▲ | lmm 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Four, no really four ways to copy... All of which are useful > Change encoding? I have never changed the encoding of my terminal, not once since first using a computer, circa 1982. Then you've never worked with Japanese. Which is fine, but a significant proportion of the world needs to. > UTF8-FTW Not for Japanese, sadly. | | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Neither useful for a very large majority of people. Yet you’ve decided we must avoid them every time we look at the context menu. Also neglected the point elsewhere that obscure options are fine in control panels, auxiliary and submenus. |
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| ▲ | pxc 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > So many KDE apps have this same problem. Giant labeled buttons taking up space from the actual content Unlabeled buttons are a scourge, accursed and meaningless hieroglyphs | | |
| ▲ | brewdad 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I do love that the floppy lives on in the Save icon. | |
| ▲ | eviks 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Unless you remember the meaning , of course, then suddenly the curse is lifted and you just don't waste space | | |
| ▲ | guappa 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Good thing KDE has a global setting to remove the labels! | |
| ▲ | pxc 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | GUIs (and especially buttons) are most useful for things I do infrequently. Frequent tasks are better done by keyboard shortcuts or command line utilities anyway. The only places where I routinely click on label-less icons are in the menu bar/system tray and my browser's always-visible toolbar. I guess both of those places are especially space constrained, which maybe makes it feel more worth it to me. And I also actively arrange all the items in both cases, choosing not just the arrangement but which will show at all. That means I know them basically as soon as I throw them down. I wonder if it would be crazy to have the labels on shown-by-default buttons fade only after a certain number of clicks on them. | | |
| ▲ | eviks 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > I guess both of those places are especially space constrained, which maybe makes it feel more worth it to me. See how easy it is to justify "the scourge"?
Also, this is exactly the same situation here - using a permanent toolbar on your main screen (not a submenu or some secondary settings screen where extra labels don't cost anything) > crazy to have the labels on shown-by-default buttons fade only after a certain number of clicks on them. Great idea, had the same, though an even better is to use frecency as a proxy for memory everywhere (and also apply it to various tips and keybinds etc) - if you've clicked the button 10 times, the label disappears, but if you haven't clicked in a year, it reappears (all configurable per button of course, OS-wide, there are some frequently use symbols like clipboard that you'll never forget due to use in other apps) |
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| ▲ | heavyset_go 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That screenshot has all of the Konsole features enabled. You'd use one at a time if you use any at all. > So many KDE apps have this same problem. Right click any KDE app toolbar -> Text position -> Icons only I also believe it's a setting in the System Settings. | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 4 days ago | parent [-] | | That's why I love KDE. You can have it just the way you like it. Not how someone else decided on. I think a lot of people knock it just from looking at some screenshots of the default options. Not knowing everything is configurable. Think the taskbar (panel) is too thick? Just change it. Don't want that toolbar? No worries just turn it off. It's so good. | | |
| ▲ | heavyset_go 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I was in that boat for years. It took forcing myself to switch due to GNOME breaking basic features before I realized just how great and customizable KDE is. You can easily implement Windows or macOS UI layouts using it and it isn't terrible. I actually prefer KDE to either desktop. | |
| ▲ | account42 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > That's why I love KDE. You can have it just the way you like it. Not how someone else decided on. That is unfortunately less and less the case. Still better than most alternatives in that regard though. | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The context menu is not configureable. |
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| ▲ | mzajc 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Is it really necessary to take up what could be used for 2+ extra lines of terminal output for a labeled Copy button? It's not, which is why the context menu gives you an "Icons Only" option, along with "Text Only", "Text Alongside Icons" (default), and "Text Under Icons". You can also adjust the icon size, or remove the toolbar entirely. | |
| ▲ | shmerl 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's very easy to customize and remove all the visual noise though. | |
| ▲ | phatskat 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > This 100%. Just look at the screenshot on the KDE page for Konsole: https://apps.kde.org/konsole/ Oof. It looks like it’s trying to iTerm2 but, as the kids say, it’s not him. I generally don’t use any “default” terminal regardless of OS or DE if I don’t have to. I’m full time on Ghostty these days and I adore it |
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| ▲ | ezst 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Who needs konsole when you can have yakuake? | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I use the terminal too much for that. I use yakuake for a quick text based ai interface though. That way I can quickly go like "what's the difference between this and that in Spanish?" when I'm writing something. | | |
| ▲ | ezst 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I use yakuake for everything, I don't know what I would be missing out from a dedicated term: yakuake has tabs, and splits/tiling, so the entirety of my terminal needs are covered in one convenient and easily accessible place :-) | | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'd miss having full screen. I have console full screen on one of my virtual desktops (and I can switch to any desktop with a single key press so in that sense it's the same as yakuake in terms of accessibility). Good point though! |
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| ▲ | account42 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Everyone who uses the terminal for more than one-off commands? | | |
| ▲ | ezst 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Why would you think that yakuake is limited to one-off commands? It has tabs, and splits/tiling, it gets in and out of the way seamlessly. What would a dedicated terminal add to it? | |
| ▲ | guappa 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Is your yakuake process running in a very time limited cgroup? |
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| ▲ | wojciii 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I use terminator as my terminal .. it allows to split windows which is somewhat implemented in console, but it doesn't work very well.. | | |
| ▲ | WD-42 4 days ago | parent [-] | | And this is why I find KDE annoying. Having to use GTK/GNOME apps for something as simple as a terminal. | | |
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| ▲ | rgun 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I have probably started using konsole because it was the default, but have since liked it a lot. I use tmux whenever I want to split windows, synchronize keystrokes and things like that but for all else, konsole works perfectly well. I have set it up in a way that I don't see any clutter. You can hide whatever you don't want to see on the UI. All I see is the terminal and the tabs. The killer feature is the 'monitor for silence' and 'monitor for activity'. Comes quite handy for long running background tasks that you want to monitor. | |
| ▲ | neobrain 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > the context menu with hundreds of options can’t be simplified to my knowledge What context menu is this about? When I right click into the terminal area, my context menu has a grand total of... 11 items. | | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Hide the menu/toolbar. And 11 is too many as it is, see my comment elsewhere. Someone posted a screenshot of a new install with 16, but it still doesn't have the main menu disabled. Which adds it to the context menu. |
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| ▲ | foresto 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I suspect overlooked and stalled pull requests are common in open-source. A small one of mine (to a popular project that is not KDE or GNOME) recently took half a year, and most of that time was spent waiting for reviewers and bikeshedding the docs. My condolences on the frustration. For what it's worth, I'm not part of KDE's inner circle, yet the several PRs that I have submitted to them since I started using it (~2 years ago) have all been accepted. One was difficult to shepherd through the gauntlet of opinions, but was finally merged. So the process is not entirely impenetrable. | |
| ▲ | f33d5173 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Is that why they don't have alt selection? |
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| ▲ | jimbo808 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Not everyone wants or needs the customizability of KDE. But if you're a heavy desktop user, being able to tailor every aspect of your system to your specific preferences, is absolutely wonderful. Using my Mac for work has become excruciating since I switched to KDE for my Linux machines last year. | | |
| ▲ | vbezhenar 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm heavy desktop user and I never want to tailor every aspect of my system to my specific preferences. I don't have any specific preferences. I have general preferences of any sane user and I want programs to have sane GUI which does not need additional setup. There's no good environment for me in Linux. KDE is too customizable, I installed it once, opened settings and immediately formatted my disk. GNOME is terrible with their tablet UI and miriad hidden keybindings, but at least it does not have billion options, so I'm using GNOME, but I'm not happy with it. All I want is something windows 95-like, but without any settings whatsoever. GNOME 2 was very good desktop back in the days, it's a pity they decided to ruin it. | | |
| ▲ | klibertp 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think it's pretty clear that there are both kinds of power users: the ones who take pride in being able to learn whatever defaults there are, and the ones who take pride in being able to customize the defaults to their preference. I don't believe either group is any more right than the other: both sides have about equal amounts of good arguments and pointless posturing. A tabs-vs-spaces situation. Fortunately, in this case, we more often than not have a choice: computing environment GUIs are still pretty personal, so everyone can just use software that follows their expectations. The problem begins when a user from one side is somehow forced to use software following the other side's ideology - but that's a separate story, and arguably it's the "being forced" part that's the actual problem. Personally, I'm very inconsistent in this regard. There are apps that I've been customizing for more than a decade and, quite honestly, I wouldn't know how to use them were my config to suddenly stop working (Emacs, ZSH, tmux). On the other hand, there are apps I've been using for a similarly long time, but never bothered to configure (other than possibly installing a bunch of plugins): Firefox and Vim come to mind. There are also apps that I do customize, but either only once and never touch the config again (my window manager, Awesome), or ones that I customize but only to add an escape hatch (adding "Open this file in Emacs" to all JetBrains IDEs, for example). So from my perspective, what's essential is to have a choice: both GNOME and KDE should exist, should enjoy similar popularity, and should each focus on their favored philosophy. Let those who want to work with defaults use software where a lot of effort went into providing sane defaults (it's ok if customizability suffers), and let those who want to customize use software where significant effort went into allowing customizability (it's ok if defaults are slightly insane). | |
| ▲ | badsectoracula 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > any sane user and I want programs to have sane GUI which does not need additional setup In reality there is no such thing as a "sane user" using programs with "sane GUIs". Either someone already has a lot of preferences formed by their experiences using desktop OSes over the years, or they have started using desktop OSes recently and they barely have any expectations. And because of that there is no such things as "sane user" using "sane GUIs". Your sanity is someone else's insanity. | |
| ▲ | wkat4242 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I do have strong preferences. But it just means that gnome is better for you and kde better for me :) |
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| ▲ | jorams 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Your screenshot shows a menu in which features, namely the menu bar, have quite explicitly been removed from the default layout because you are unlikely to use them. You are showing the second tier of a menu structure where they are available if you need them occasionally. If you happen to need them more often you can easily add them to the toolbar. | | |
| ▲ | abrouwers 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It's certainly possible, but to me it feels like a junk drawer without too much thought. In konsole, for example, it buries "use dark color scheme," which I'd assume is a fairly common option. | | |
| ▲ | antalis 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Most people choose a theme for all the windows in the system settings. |
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