| ▲ | jwr 6 days ago |
| Midnight commander is a great tool, although I think most younger users do not realize that we lost something along the way. Norton Commander was fantastically fast for common file operations not just because of the dual-pane design, but because of several things working together. Thoughtful design of software while thinking of hardware. To get the most out of it, you were supposed to use the numpad on your keyboard. And it should be the classic IBM PC numpad: large +, large 0, [num]/*- in the top row. Then, you wanted your function keys as a top row above your keyboard. Also, ESC was supposed to work immediately, not after a delay. I know many people think these things don't matter, because you can do everything with MC (and more), but I disagree. In this case, every fraction of a second matters. In the setup I described above, selecting all files in the current directory and moving them to the directory in the other pane is: one flick of the right hand (roll over + and Enter on the numpad), F6 with the left hand followed by another Enter immediately with the right hand. Now try to do that using the + that is on your = key and tell me it's the same thing. |
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| ▲ | homebrewer 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > ESC was supposed to work immediately, not after a delay. It's not mc's fault, the Escape delay is added by the terminal emulator, to correctly handle escape sequences. You can probably configure it, but the most portable way that works everywhere is to simply press it twice quickly. It's only barely slower than the DOS way of doing it, and much faster than pressing and waiting for a second. |
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| ▲ | ptspts 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This should have been solved in the last 30 years on Linux console, X terminal emulators and through SSH. | | |
| ▲ | tracker1 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It's more of a "just in case" thing for the most part... the actual risk of an escape as part of a sequence showing up over TCP without the rest for over a fraction of a second today is highly unlikely. That said, so many systems seem to add a delay well over half a second like we're using dialup. I'd probably tune the delay to 100-200ms if I ever really felt it and have the option to change it. | |
| ▲ | mmastrac 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The kitty key protocol solves this, but your app and terminal need to support it. Many do. |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | zahlman 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In gnome-terminal, I have yet to succeed in inputting an escape sequence manually without the escape key being interpreted separately. | |
| ▲ | couscouspie 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't even understand the problem: ESC and the following key is generally just an alias for ALT+key. |
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| ▲ | tremon 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "select all files" was just one key: * (actually, it was invert selection -- so assuming no files were selected beforehand). Pressing + and Enter would select one file, then try to edit/run the next one? |
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| ▲ | Lex-2008 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I believe pressing + should open "Select files" dialog prefilled to select all files (and dirs), pressing Enter confirms it. My Midnight Commander 4.8.33, however, remember previously entered mask, and if no mask was entered - then it defaults to selecting nothing :( |
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| ▲ | nottorp 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Stuff is still there as long as you get a proper keyboard. Well, and monitor. If you're slouching over your laptop for extended periods of time, you have bigger problems than not being able to use numpad +... |
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| ▲ | javier_e06 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Ah Norton Commander. It sure throws me back to the Intel Pentium days. Today for that left versus right birds eye view, just-do-it, operations I use beyond compare. |
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| ▲ | eviks 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > every fraction of a second matters That was not true otherwise you wouldn't get stuck with the most unergonomic keys mandating moving your hands off their resting place. > selecting all files ... : one flick of the right hand The common Ctrl+A is better, no flick, just shifting a single thumb > F6 with the left hand followed by another Enter immediately with the right hand Or still same single hand Ctrl+Shift+X (or something even easier like maybe X, X) |
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| ▲ | arevno 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > the most unergonomic keys mandating moving your hands off their resting place Touch typists always have to get their dig in. I've been using vim for 5 years now and still use up/dn/lf/rt - it's easier to find in a tactile manner with the right keyboard and makes MUCH more sense to the brain than hjkl. It's like 80ms travel, worst case. Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd, in terms of key positions that make sense to the brain. | | |
| ▲ | eviks 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > it's easier to find in a tactile manner It isn't because your resting keys require NO finding, so will always be easier. > makes MUCH more sense to the brain than hjkl
> Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd, in terms of key positions that make sense to the brain Don't repeat the ancient hjkl mistake? What does your brain say to this simple counter? But more importantly, how does any of the numpad+/F6 nonsense follow from the fact that you can improve within the letters? > It's like 80ms travel I bet you didn't really time anything in real use, especially not the return timing to go back to the base, which will take you longer. But more importantly, go convince the "every fraction of a second matters" guy first. To me the lack of design logic/convenience is enough. | | |
| ▲ | Kon5ole 4 days ago | parent [-] | | >It isn't because your resting keys require NO finding, so will always be easier You still need to find them unless your hand is glued to the resting keys and even if it were the resting keys might not be hjkl, and even if they are they will by default type hjkl and not move the cursor in any other software you ever use except vim. (It can't be objectively measured of course but I am convinced anyone who can use vim without thinking has spent more time learning vim than they gained from using vim for other things) ;-) | | |
| ▲ | eviks 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > unless your hand is glued to the resting keys It is, the hint is in the name! > even if it were the resting keys might not be hjkl So? Use the other resting keys, resting is key here, not their labels > even if they are they will by default type hjkl and not move the cursor in any other software you ever use except vim. Sorry, but your knowledge of the software world is too shallow, there are other apps that do that, specifically, file managers. Also you can use them universally in all apps with an extra modifier (right alt to do everything with a single hand), so > gained from using vim for other thing will literally include every single app that uses cursor keys | | |
| ▲ | Kon5ole 3 days ago | parent [-] | | >It is, the hint is in the name! Just about any line of text I write daily uses symbols not reachable from the resting position, and once my hand has left that position the arrow keys are easier to find. (Inverted T of course, with home/end/pgdown/pgup cluster). >there are other apps that do that, specifically, file managers The point is that you ("you" in this case being a typical user, not you personally) will open applications every day where hjkl does nothing at all with the cursor, and you have to use the arrow keys anyway. This is mental friction that remains even after you spent years internalizing the hjkl cursor moving flaw. Faced with this situation a user can choose to either use the arrow keys in vim, or go full Stockholm syndrome and change the default in every other piece of software to match vim. If that seems like a good idea, it might be worth remembering that the creator of vi didn't choose hjkl because he thought it superior to using arrow keys - he did it because the computer he used had no arrow keys! ;-) | | |
| ▲ | eviks 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > Just about any line of text I write daily uses symbols not reachable from the resting position Use a better setup! No-one forces you to use bad defaults and think everything must be bad.
Also, there are no such symbols even on standard setup, all of the number row keys/symbols are reachable with individual fingers, so you never miss the resting place, it's a couple of fingers moving back and forth. > my hand has left that position the arrow keys are easier to find. (Inverted T of course, with home/end/pgdown/pgup cluster It didn't, a couple of your fingers did. But also, why did you ignore the F6, numpad+ etc hand dance and only focus on the arrow keys? > "you" in this case being a typical user A typical user doesn't use vim. A real user using vim is perfectly capable of basic keyboard rebinding > This is mental friction that remains even after you spent years internalizing the hjkl cursor moving flaw. No, it goes away after you spend minutes oiling your system to remove friction. (Of course, it may still take years of ignorance before that...) > change the default in every other piece of software to match vim. Or you change the default once system-wide. See, reality is much simpler than your fantasy! > the creator of vi didn't choose hjkl because he thought it superior So? You're the only one here stuck on hjkl because for some reason you can't comprehend that it's just a config, not a mandatory commandment passed down by the Vim prophet. | | |
| ▲ | Kon5ole 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >Use a better setup! Even if you only use your own computer, customizing the basics is a bit of a trap in many ways. First you need to find a different setup that is actually better, not just different. Then you need to build muscle memory for it, then you need to never use any other computer because they will not have your setup. I think getting good at using the defaults is better than changing the defaults. Basically learn to play the guitar, even if it's hard. I customize things too, but take care to make it additive, not transformative. Aliases, plugins, better software and such are fine, but messing with my muscle memory is just not worth it. >Also, there are no such symbols even on standard setup That depends on the standard. In some countries you need two hands to type an @, just to take one example.
For US english the numpad is a good example though. Not so easy to find the home keys from the numpad, but your hand passes the arrow keys on the way. :) >why did you ignore the F6, numpad+ etc hand dance and only focus on the arrow keys? Because I'm mainly making a counterpoint to your claim that using hjkl was better than using the arrow keys. It has admittedly grown to a more general anti-bikeshedding rant fuelled by my own bikeshedding regrets - so I better stop here. :) |
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| ▲ | Izkata 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Fun fact: hjkl are in the same order as the arrows on screen in Dance Dance Revolution. | |
| ▲ | zahlman 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Even the gaming community got this more correct with wasd esdf would be better (using stronger fingers). I don't like hjkl either and would use ijkl if I were non-lazy enough to figure out rebinding. I can remember many games for the Apple ][ used ijkm. | | |
| ▲ | tremon 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Nobody has their index finger on the F when using wasd navigation. The reason wasd was chosen is because of the position of ctrl, alt and space (also common in games): with the hand on esdf, the ctrl and alt keys are quite hard to reach; but with the index finger on the D, the thumb can easily switch between alt and space, and the pinky can access ctrl and shift. btw this is why vi used hjkl for navigation: https://catonmat.net/why-vim-uses-hjkl-as-arrow-keys | | |
| ▲ | zahlman 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > Nobody has their index finger on the F when using wasd navigation. Yes, but they would while editing text, and the context of this was the idea of drawing inspiration from other control systems for a text editor UI. The choice of key labeling on that terminal implies that there was a pre-existing convention, but the article doesn't go into any detail about that. |
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| ▲ | tracker1 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In early, original Doom/Doom2 days, I'd use ctrl/shift as up/down with zx mapped to left right... resting my left hand there felt really comfortable and the actions were pretty easy functionally without as much RSI strain. In the end, I gave up and went with wasd as I got tired of changing settings for games all the time, or having someone else use my computer and complain. | |
| ▲ | jack_pp 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | gaming defaulted to wasd because you only use one hand. hjkl makes a ton of sense considering the j key on all keyboards has a tactile feel, it is way easier than arrows which are a whole lot more than 80ms travel for the move + finding the home row again. but you're probably just rage baiting |
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