| ▲ | mitthrowaway2 4 days ago |
| I've come to realize that I liked believing that there was something special about the human mental ability to use our mind's eye and visual imagination to picture something, such as how we would look with a different hairstyle. It's uncomfortable seeing that skill reproduced by machinery at the same level as my own imagination, or even better. It makes me feel like my ability to use my imagination is no more remarkable than my ability to hold a coat off the ground like a coat hook would. |
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| ▲ | al_borland 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| As someone who can’t visualize things like this in my head, and can only think about them intellectually, your own imagination is still special. When I heard people can do that, it sounded like a super power. AI is like Batman, useless without his money and utility belt. Your own abilities are more like Superman, part of who you are and always with you, ready for use. |
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| ▲ | lemonberry 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But you can find joy at things you envision, or laugh, or be horrified. The mental ability is surely impressive, but having a reason to do it and feeling something at the result is special. "To see a world in a grain of sand
And a heaven in a wild flower..." We - humans - have reasons to be. We get to look at a sunset and think about the scattering of light and different frequencies and how it causes the different colors. But we can also just enjoy the beauty of it. For me, every moment is magical when I take the time to let it be so. Heck, for there to even be a me responding to a you and all of the things that had to happen for Hacker News to be here. It's pretty incredible. To me anyway. |
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| ▲ | FuckButtons 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have aphantasia, I’m glad we’re all on a level playing field now. |
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| ▲ | yoz-y 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I always thought I had a vivid imagination. But then the aphantasia was mentioned in Hello Internet once, I looked it up, see comments like these and honestly… I’ve no idea how to even check. According to various tests I believe I have aphantasia. But mostly I’ve got not even a slightest idea on how not having it is supposed to work. I guess this is one of those mysteries when a missing sense cannot be described in any manner. | | |
| ▲ | jmcphers 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | A simple test for aphantasia that I gave my kids when they asked about it is to picture an apple with three blue dots on it. Once you have it, describe where the dots are on the apple. Without aphantasia, it should be easy to "see" where the dots are since your mind has placed them on the apple somewhere already. Maybe they're in a line, or arranged in a triangle, across the middle or at the top. | | |
| ▲ | brotchie 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | When reading "picture an apple with three blue dots on it", I have an abstract concept of an apple and three dots. There's really no geometry there, without follow on questions, or some priming in the question. In my conscious experience I pretty much imagine {apple, dot, dot, dot}. I don't "see" blue, the dots are tagged with dot.color == blue. When you ask about the arrangement of the dots, I'll THEN think about it, and then says "arranged in a triangle." But that's because you've probed with your question. Before you probed, there's no concept in my mind of any geometric arrangement. If I hadn't been prompted to think / naturally thought about the color of the apple, and you asked me "what color is the apple." Only then would I say "green" or "red." If you asked me to describe my office (for example) my brain can't really imagine it "holistically." I can think of the desk and then enumerate it's properties: white legs, wooden top, rug on ground. But, essentially, I'm running a geometric iterator over the scene, starting from some anchor object, jumping to nearby objects, and then enumerating their properties. I have glimpses of what it's like to "see" in my minds eye. At night, in bed, just before sleep, if I concentrate really hard, I can sometimes see fleeting images. I liken it to looking at one of those eye puzzles where you have to relax your eyes to "see it." I almost have to focus on "seeing" without looking into the blackness of my closed eyes. | | |
| ▲ | rimprobablyly 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Exactly my experience too. These fleeting images are rare, but bloody hell it feels like cheating at life if most people can summon up visualisations like that at will. | | |
| ▲ | theshrike79 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Watching someone clearly just transfer what's in their mind to a drawing is just jaw-dropping to me. Like they'll start at an arm and move along filling the rest of the body correctly the first time. No sketching, no finding the lines, just a human printer. | |
| ▲ | derektank 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I can't recall it ever being useful outside of physics and geometry questions tbh |
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| ▲ | brisky 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think I have it as well. But my theory is that we might have imagination but it is only accessible to subconscious. It is as if it is blocked from consciousness. I have ADHD as well, might be that this is protection mechanism that allows my kind of brain to survive in the world better (otherwise it would be too entertaining to get lost in your own imagination). As a kid I used to daydream a lot. | |
| ▲ | typpilol 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've come to realize that's how they all are. No one really sees 3d pictures in their head in HD | | |
| ▲ | hamdingers 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm a 5 on the VVIQ. I can see the 3D apple, put it in my hand, rotate it, watch the light glint on the dimples in the skin, imagine tossing it to a close friend and watch them catch it, etc. It's equally astonishing to me that others are different. | | |
| ▲ | typpilol 4 days ago | parent [-] | | You close your eyes and see exactly what you would on a TV with your eyes open? | | |
| ▲ | hamdingers 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't need to close my eyes, it doesn't make much of a difference, and I see what my eyes would see. It doesn't look like a TV unless I imagine a TV and put the image on the screen. | | |
| ▲ | typpilol 3 days ago | parent [-] | | They doesnt answer my question. Do you see these pictures the same as if you were watching an HD TV? I'm going to guess no. You don't see literally high def pictures in your head. | | |
| ▲ | hamdingers 2 days ago | parent [-] | | And I'm going to guess you have no visualization ability, which is why you can only think in terms of a TV. That's fine, but your egocentric inability to acknowledge other people have different abilities is not, it's childish. |
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| ▲ | Workaccount2 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I can see I my head with ~80% the level as seeing with my eyes. It's a little tunnel visiony and fine details can be blurry, but I can definitely see it. A honeycrisp apple on a red woven placemat on a wooden counter top. The blue dots are the size of peas, they are stickers in a triangle. It not just images either, it's short videos. What's interesting though is that the "video" can be missing details that I will "hallucinate" back in that will be incorrect. So I cannot always fully trust these. Like cutting the apple in half lead to a ~1/8th slice missing from one of the halves. It's weird. | |
| ▲ | voidUpdate 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I absolutely do. For example, when I'm playing D&D, or listening to a podcast of other people playing D&D, I can "see" a fully realistic view of what is happening in my head. With the apple test, I can see a nice red apple, with the little vertical orange streaks, three blue dots arranged in a triangle, and I can rotate the apple in my head and have the dots move as you would expect from a real apple. I have a very vivid imagination | |
| ▲ | theshrike79 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Talk to people who read a lot. There are people who actually "see" a full-ass movie in their head when they read. These are also the people who get REALLY angry when some live-action casting choice isn't exactly like in the book. I just go "meh", because I kinda remember the main character had red hair and a scar and that's it. :D | | |
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| ▲ | marak830 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Welcome to the aphantasia club. We would make signs for our next meeting, but no one's come up with a good design yet :s You may notice when doing the apple test, once you try and define a texture, your brain adding things you think should be there. Scared the crap out of me a few years ago when I realized I had it. Came to grips with it now. |
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| ▲ | Sohcahtoa82 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | After reading your first sentence, I immediately saw an apple with three dots in a triangle pointing downwards on the side. Interestingly, the 3 dots in my image were flat, as if merely superimposed on an image of an apple, rather than actually being on an apple. How do people with aphantasia answer the question? | | |
| ▲ | sheepscreek 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I guess it's a spectrum with varying abilities. If you ask me, I can see a red apple - or a photo of a red apple precisely. It's not in 3D though, I cannot imagine it from other angles so I cannot image the dots around it. But if I were to sit in a quiet and dark room without any distractions, and tried concentrating super hard (with my eyes closed), then I would be able to see it as other can. Perhaps even manipulate it in my mind. Then maybe, at least in my case, it is my inability to focus my imagination when my senses are already being bombarded with external stimuli. But I cannot speak for anyone else. | |
| ▲ | foofoo12 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I found out recently that I have aphantasia, based on everything I've read. When you tell me to visualize, I imagine. I don't see it. An apple, I can imagine that. I can describe it in incomprehensibly sparse details. But when you ask details I have to fill them in. I hadn't really placed those three dots in a specific place on the apple. But when you ask where they are, I'll decide to put them in a line on the apple. If you ask what color they are, I'll have to decide. | | |
| ▲ | mitthrowaway2 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm pretty sure I don't have aphantasia. I don't see the apple either; it doesn't occupy any portion of my visual field and it doesn't feel similar to looking at an image of an apple. There's more of a ghostly, dreamlike image of an apple "somewhere else" whose details I only perceive when I think about them, and fade when I pay less attention. But the sensation of this apparition is a visual one; the apple will have an orientation, size, shape, and colour in the mental image, which are defined even if they're ghostly, inconsistent, and change as I reconsider what the apple should look like. | |
| ▲ | brotchie 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | +1, spot on description of aphantasia. |
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| ▲ | yoz-y 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For me the hard question to answer is whether I have aphantasia because people describing “actually seeing” things like with their eyes is an absolutely wild concept. To answer the question I imagine an apple with three dots in a triangle, closely together. There is no color because there is no real image, it’s just an idea. As other have said if prompted the idea gets more detailed. That said, when I tried to learn building mind palaces it has worked. I can “walk through” places I know just fine, even recall visual details like holes in a letterbox. But again, there is no image. | |
| ▲ | jvanderbot 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They may not answer but what they'll realize is that the "placing" comes consciously after the "thinking of" which does not happen with others. That is, they have to ascribe a placement rather than describe one in the image their mind conjured up. | | |
| ▲ | sunrunner 4 days ago | parent [-] | | How fair is it to ask people to self report whether details existed in their original image before or after a second question? Does the second question not immediately refine the imagined image? Or is that the point, that there’s now a memory of two different apple states? Edit: This iDevice really wants to capitalise Apple. | | |
| ▲ | jvanderbot 4 days ago | parent [-] | | This is not a scientific study it is an introspection tool. Sibling comment shows how useful it is. |
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| ▲ | wrs 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's no apple, much less any dots. Of course, I'm happy to draw you an apple on a piece of paper, and draw some dots on that, then tell you where those are. |
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| ▲ | aaronblohowiak 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | oh just close your eyes and imagine an apple for a few moments, then open your eyes, look at the wikipedia article about aphantasia and pick the one that best fits the level of detail you imagined. | |
| ▲ | dom96 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So my mind briefly jumps to an apple and I guess I am very briefly seeing that the dots happen to be on top of the apple, but that image is fleeting. I have had some people claim to me that they can literally see what they are imagining as if it is in front of them for prolonged periods of time, in a similar way to how it would show up via AR goggles. I guess this is a spectrum and it's tough to dealineate the abilities. But I just looked it up and what I am describing is hyperphantasia. | |
| ▲ | gcanyon 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For me the triggering event was reading about aphantasia, and then thinking about how I have never, ever, seen a movie about a book I've read and said, "that [actor|place|thing] looks nothing like I imagined it" Then I tried the apple thing to confirm. I have some sense of looking at things, but not much. | | |
| ▲ | Agraillo 3 days ago | parent [-] | | It's a great aspect to evaluate (fiction books/movies), thanks for mentioning it. I think it's much easier to use as an evaluation tool than techniques like the apple example. One of the tests, for example, is to recall a book that you have never seen a movie adaptation of and try to remember the characters and scenes. For me, in these cases (when I try to recall), the characters appear faceless, while places are more detailed, but they usually remind me of some real places I have encountered before in my life. It's interesting that if non-aphantasia people are so common, I wonder why so few paintings have scenery based solely on imagination. I even remember asking a person who paints (not in the context of this condition) how hard it was for him to paint something not directly before his eyes, but from imagination, and why he didn't do it more often. I recall that he definitely did this (painting from imagination) rarely or not at all, and the question really puzzled him |
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| ▲ | sunrunner 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Follow up question for people now doing this, what colour was the apple? (Given that there was no colour in the prompt for the apple, only the dots) |
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| ▲ | foofoo12 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ask people to visualize a thing. Pick something like a house, dog, tree, etc. Then ask about details. Where is the dog? I have aphantasia and my dog isn't anywhere. It's just a dog, you didn't ask me to visualize anything else. When you ask about details, like color, tail length, eyes then I have to make them up on the spot. I can do that very quickly but I don't "see" the good boy. |
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| ▲ | Revisional_Sin 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Aphantasia gang! |
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| ▲ | m3kw9 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To be fair, the model's ability came from us generating the training data. |
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| ▲ | quantummagic 4 days ago | parent [-] | | To be fair, we're the beneficiaries of nature generating the data we trained on ourselves. Our ability came from being exposed to training in school, and in the world, and from examples from all of human history. Ie. if you locked a child in a dark room for their entire lives, and gave them no education or social interaction, they wouldn't have a very impressive imagination or artistic ability either. We're reliant on training data too. | | |
| ▲ | lawlessone 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Gonna try use this one instead of paying the next time i visit a restaurant. | | |
| ▲ | Terretta 2 days ago | parent [-] | | At a restaurant you pay for what they no longer have when you're done. You don't have to pay to look at food in a grocery, or a recipe in a library you go home and cook. You do pay for ingredients you use up. Unless the book you looked at, or YouTube video you aped, trained you to garden. |
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| ▲ | layer8 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The proof in the pudding will be if machines will be able to develop new art styles. For example, there is a progression in comic/manga/anime art styles over the decades. If humans would stop (they probably won't) that kind of progression, would machines be able to continue it? In principle yes (we are biological machines of sorts), but likely not with the current AI architecture. |
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| ▲ | krapp 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I think it's a mistake to look at developing new art styles as simply continuing a linear progression. More often than not art styles are unique to the artist - you couldn't, for instance, put Eichiro Oda, Tsutomu Nihei and Rumiko Takahashi on the same number line. And trends tend to develop in reaction to existing trends, usually started by a single artist, as often as they do as an evolution of a norm. Arguably, if creating an art style is simply a matter of novel mechanics and uniqueness, LLMs could already do that simply by adding artists to the prompts ("X" in the style of "A" and "B") and plenty of people did (and do) argue that this is no different than what human artists do (I would disagree.) I personally want to argue that intentionally matters more than raw technique, but Hacker News would require a strict proof for the definition of intentionality that they would argue humans don't possess, but somehow LLMs do, and that of course I can't provide. I guess I have no argument besides "it means more to me that a person does it than a machine." It matters to me that a human artist cares. A machine doesn't care. And yes, in a strictly materialist sense we are nothing but black boxes of neurons receiving stimuli and there is no fundamental difference between a green field and a cold steel rail, it's all just math and meat, but I still don't care if a machine makes X in the style of (Jack Kirby AND Frank Miller.) | | |
| ▲ | autoexec 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > More often than not art styles are unique to the artist I'd disagree. Art styles are a category of many similar works in relation to others or a way of bringing about similar works. They usually build off of or are influenced by prior work and previous methods, even in cases where there is a effort to avoid or subvert them. Even with novel techniques or new mediums. "Great Artists Steal" and all that. Some people become known for certain mediums or the inclusion of specific elements, but few of them were the first or only artists to use them. "Art in the style of X" just comes down to familiarity/marketing. Art develops the way food does with fads, standards, cycles, and with technology and circumstance enabling new things. I think evolution is a pretty good analogy although it's driven by a certain amount of creativity, personal preference, and intent in addition to randomness and natural selection. Computers could output random noise and in the process eventually end up creating an art style, but it'd take a human to recognize anything valuable and artists to incorporate it into other works. Right now what passes for AI is just remixing existing art created by humans which makes it more likely to blindly stumble into creating some output we like, but inspiration can come from anywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if the "AI Slop" art style wasn't already inspiring human artists. Maybe there are already painters out there doing portraits of people with the wrong number of fingers. As AI is increasingly consuming it's own slop things could get weird enough to inspire new styles, or alternately homogenized into nothing but blandness. | | |
| ▲ | krapp 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > I wouldn't be surprised if the "AI Slop" art style wasn't already inspiring human artists. Maybe there are already painters out there doing portraits of people with the wrong number of fingers. People adopt art styles because they like something about them, the aesthetic or what they represent. I don't think there are enough human artists who like AI slop (they tend to despise it categorically) enough to want to imitate it, unless it's as some form of satire. They aren't going to do so simply because it exists. |
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| ▲ | micromacrofoot 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| it can only do this because it's been trained on millions of human works |
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| ▲ | jryle70 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | And those millions people learned their craft by studying those who came before them. | |
| ▲ | echelon 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This argument that hints at appropriation isn't going to be very useful or true, going forward. There are now dozens of copyright safe image and video models: Adobe, MoonValley, etc. We technically never need human works again. We can generate everything synthetically (unreal engine, cameras on a turn table, etc.) The physics of optics is just incredibly easy to evolve. | | |
| ▲ | lawlessone 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >We technically never need human works again. Not sure about that. Humans are doing almost all the work now still. | | |
| ▲ | echelon 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm sorry, but in the context of image gen, this is also deeply biased. Nano banana saves literally millions of manual human pixel pushing hours. It's easy to hate on LLMs and AI hype, but image models are changing the world and impacting every visual industry. | | |
| ▲ | filoeleven 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Nano banana saves literally millions of manual human pixel pushing hours. At the low, low cost of burning incredible amounts of energy! This is also he same logic as “lost sale” software piracy calculations. 90% of those claimed hours would not have been spent if the tool did not exist. Most of the generated images are idle throwaways that no human would bother with creating. | | |
| ▲ | echelon 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I work in media. I edit images frequently. These models are incredibly useful. Your arguments sound to me as if you're saying the cotton gin is a bad idea because 90% of that cotton wouldn't have been picked. Lay people have been starved from being able to visually articulate themselves. We're entering into a world where everyone will have spatial articulation. That's a good thing. Don't be the latin clergy arguing the populace shouldn't be able to read or have books. |
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| ▲ | micromacrofoot 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The cotton gin will make farming so efficient we won't need slaves! |
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| ▲ | lm28469 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can also drink your own piss and eat your own shit for a while and stay alive, I don't think you'll get better with time if that's all you ingest | | |
| ▲ | echelon 3 days ago | parent [-] | | The amount of anti-AI vitriol in some of these threads is illogical. I don't think you're being fair here at all. The technology has demonstrable positive use cases. |
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| ▲ | micromacrofoot 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Complete nonsense, if this were to follow every AI company would stop training because it's so expensive... but they won't. |
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| ▲ | echelon 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Vision has evolved frequently and quickly in the animal kingdom. Conscious intelligence has not. As another argument, we've had mathematical descriptions of optics, drawing algorithms, fixed function pipeline, ray tracing, and so much more rich math for drawing and animating. Smart, thinking machines? We haven't the faintest idea. Progress on Generative Images >> LLMs |
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| ▲ | Animats 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > Vision has evolved frequently and quickly in the animal kingdom. Conscious intelligence has not. Three times, something like intelligence has evolved - in mammals, octopuses, and corvids. Completely different neural architectures in those unrelated speces. | | |
| ▲ | nick__m 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Why carve out the corvid from the other birds ? Some parots and parakeets species are playing in the same league as the corvids. | | | |
| ▲ | echelon 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I won't judge our distant relatives, the cephalopods and chicken theropods, but we big apes are pretty dumb. Even with what we've got, it took us hundreds of thousands of years to invent indoor plumbing. Vision, I still submit, is much simpler than "intelligence". It's evolved independently almost a hundred times. It's also hypothesized that it takes as few as a hundred thousand years to evolve advanced eye optics: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.1994.004... Even plants can sense the visual and physical world. Three dimensional spatial relationships and paths and rays through them are not hard. |
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| ▲ | EGreg 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Seriously? One could always cut-and-paste (not the computer term) a hairstyle over a photo of a person. You are now marvelling at someone taking the collective output of humans around the world, then training a model on it with massive, massive compute… and then having a single human compete with that model. Without the human output on the Internet, none of this would be possible. ImageNet was positively small compared to this. But yeah, what you call “imagination” is basically perturbations and exploration across a model that you have in your head, which imposes constraints (eg gravity etc) that you learned. Obviously we can remix things now that they’re on the Internet. Having said that, after all that compute, the models had trouble rendering clocks that show an arbitrary time, or a glass of wine filled to the brim. |
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| ▲ | cma 4 days ago | parent [-] | | >Having said that, after all that compute, the models had trouble rendering clocks that show an arbitrary time, or a glass of wine filled to the brim. I know you're probably talking about analog clocks, but people when dreaming have trouble representing stable digits on clocks. It's one of the methods to tell if you are dreaming. |
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| ▲ | stuckkeys 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| that was deep. |
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| ▲ | kylebenzle 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [flagged] |
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