| ▲ | kylehotchkiss 5 days ago |
| This week in Nepal, before all the other news hit the fan, GenZ did exactly that, and overthrew the current leadership. 30 lives were lost along the way. The military took over for security purposes, and asked the leadership of the movement whom they wanted for an interim government. It was not the happy, peaceful democracy we all long for. It was a costly victory. But I feel happy the legitimate grievances the protestors held will lead to change. I hope they can find some candidates who will stand for them and reduce corruption, and do the best they can to help with the economy. |
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| ▲ | perihelions 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| "Not peaceful" is an understatement. They burned innocents alive. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/new-updates/former... ("Former Nepal PM Jhala Nath Khanal’s wife Rajyalaxmi Chitrakar burnt alive as protesters set his house on fire") IMO it's far too early for anyone to declare any kind of victory, in that unresolved, chaotic power vacuum. No one can guess where that will go. |
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| ▲ | underlipton 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I believe that was after 19 students, non-violent protestors, were gunned down by security forces. It's a tough proposition. The goal is for the elite to have the awareness, humility, and political courage to not let things get so bad. But that point is well before Dauphines lose their heads. It's when peasant children are asking for bread and not getting any. Maybe before even that. Don't reach that tipping point and you won't careen towards the other atrocities. | | |
| ▲ | xvector 5 days ago | parent [-] | | They were not intentionally killed, the security forces were untrained in the use of rubber bullets and shot them directly at protestors rather than having them ricochet off the ground. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | That statement reflects a basic misunderstanding of small arms. If you shoot at someone, regardless of whether you're using less-than-lethal ammunition, death or serious injury is always possible. This was absolutely intentional by the soldiers and those who gave the orders. Don't try to claim it was some kind of accident, regardless of training or lack thereof. | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I really love the rising justification as of late of "they didn't know" for reckless manslaughter. They're called "less lethal" for a reason. It's not a paintball that splatters on impact (and even then, those can also harm). Even a properly shot rubber bullet carries injury risk if you're too close. What's all that police training for? | |
| ▲ | ratelimitsteve 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | if you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, then they die from injuries caused by the shot you fired, you killed them. what goes on in your little secret heart between you and jesus might matter to you, but to the real world everyone else lives in you killed them. whether you meant to shoot them in a non-killing way is irrelevant, doubly so if you never learned how to but decided you were qualified to do it anyway. | |
| ▲ | whatevaa 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No difference. Not knowing does not excuse responsibility. Should have figured it out after first death. | |
| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | camillomiller 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As in the case of the United Healthcare CEO, we are very quick to demonize the immediate violence and killing, and rightly so.
But in doing that, we definitely overlook the many thousand uncountable lives that the behavior of the single person might have indirectly killed. | | |
| ▲ | tirant 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | That is all hypothetical. Everyone with certain level of power and wealth could then hypothetically be accountable to thousands of deaths just by mere action or lack of action. Every single politician with power to decide on budgets could be accounted for it. And that still does not justify the death of any of them. | | |
| ▲ | camillomiller 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I agree that it's quite hard to draw a line and it's a slippery slope, but what UH was doing certainly isn't comparable to cutting state budget for political or financial reasons. | |
| ▲ | impossiblefork 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >And that still does not justify the death of any of them. Surely everyone is the physical cause of everything that results his action or inaction? We differentiate the world through all the interactions and then we get some langrange multipliers and whatnot, or we do it more carefully taking non-linear effects into account to still get some notion of responsibility. Surely these people you mention are in fact responsible, and surely that should make them targets in case they increase deaths, destroy people's potential etc? |
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| ▲ | ebiester 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Except that United is doing the same thing it was before, with only a few months where they dialed back the pressure until their stock price started lagging. |
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| ▲ | pas 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | of course the question is where's the line between public-money-gold-digger and innocent wife? Jhala Nath Khanal was PM for less than 1 year in 2011. But he was still in politics, leading party that was part of the governing coalition. | |
| ▲ | gg-plz 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | wolfcola 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | potato3732842 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | scheme271 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It was the former PM's wife not the former PM. Also heads of state are probably a lot safer than fishermen or loggers. | | | |
| ▲ | umanwizard 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The PM of Nepal is the head of government, not the head of state. |
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| ▲ | SilverElfin 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Attacks on free speech - like social media censorship or bans - makes democracy not possible. It removes the process for peaceful and civil change. The protestors had to go there as a result. But revolutions also tend not to result in something better most of the time. |
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| ▲ | grafmax 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | And yet many of the greatest accomplishments of humanity over the past few centuries have been shepherded by violence - abolition of slavery, the global transition to democracy, and decolonizatiom. | | |
| ▲ | NeutralCrane 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Only if you cherry pick. Abolition of slavery in Britain occurred without mass violence or war. Decolonization happened through violence and revolution in some instances. In many others the colonizers simply grew weary of the colonies and left. | |
| ▲ | transcriptase 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but humanity has not abolished slavery. Most recent stats estimate ~28 million people worldwide in the forced labour category that most would mentally associate with the term. That rises to nearly 50 million going by the modern definition that includes forced marriage, child rearing, and subservience without recourse. Yes, in 2025. Sadly the United States abolishing slavery for ~4 million within its own borders in the 1860s did not represent humanity as a whole. On paper the problem is solved because it’s illegal to openly buy and sell another person. In practice the exact same treatment and de facto ownership and exploitation of other people remain without any meaningful enforcement in many parts of the world. | | |
| ▲ | arw0n 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Going from institutionalized forms of slavery common around the globe for thousands of years to the almost complete absence of it in today's world is still a major accomplishment. Three hundred years ago, slavery was seen as natural by many, today that would be an absolute fringe position almost no one would feel comfortable stating out loud. That is progress, even if it is not yet enough. | | |
| ▲ | transcriptase 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I’m sure modern slaves appreciate the fact that their situation, while in practice virtually indistinguishable from past eras, is no longer institutionalized. |
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| ▲ | ForOldHack 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Prison labor = Slavery. | | |
| ▲ | Aloisius 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Prison labor = slave labor, not slavery. Prison = slavery. I blame how slavery is taught for the confusion. Slavery itself is a legal state where one's autonomy is fully controlled by another. Forced labor is something people commonly use slaves for, but the absence of labor didn't make one free - a slave allowed to retire was still enslaved as was a newborn born into slavery even before they're first made to work. |
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| ▲ | ethbr1 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > abolition of slavery, the global transition to democracy, and decolonization It's notable that all of those are pre-democratic. | | |
| ▲ | lmm 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Many slaving countries were democratic as it was understood at the time. All modern democracies disenfranchise some people e.g. the young, people with criminal convictions in some countries. | |
| ▲ | fraggleysun 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Could you please clarify your statement? | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 5 days ago | parent [-] | | >> Attacks on free speech - like social media censorship or bans - makes democracy not possible. GP stated this. Parent replied with a list of scenarios where violence created progress, albeit none of which featured universal democracy before the violence. IOW, they are loudly agreeing with each other. | | |
| ▲ | komali2 5 days ago | parent [-] | | At least in the case of the USA, then, there's still no universal democracy. Corporations have far more powerful and influence, in basically every election you can only vote for a neoliberal, and plenty of people get disenfranchised. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It seems like bike-shedding to equate complete lack of franchise with vote dilution. They are very different levels of democratic access. |
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| ▲ | rbanffy 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Attacks on free speech - like social media censorship or bans - makes democracy not possible The use of social media to spread misinformation with a specific agenda also makes democracy impossible. There has to be a line, however fuzzy, somewhere. Remember Trump used misinformation to steer a crowd who then stormed the Capitol. Incitement should never be covered by free speech protection. |
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| ▲ | Karrot_Kream 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nepal isn't a good comparison to the US. Nepal has been extremely politically unstable now for years and was wracked by a giant earthquake too. Nepal doesn't have stable governing institutions. In 2001 a disgruntled member of the royal family massacred the rest of the family, kicking off 20 years of instability. |
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| ▲ | tootie 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Didn't the government open fire on protesters killing over a dozen people the day before the protesters turned violent? |
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| ▲ | cakealert 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Translation: The government lost support of the military. GenZ were allowed to topple the government. |
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| ▲ | smeeger 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| corruption is only made worse by angry mobs tearing things down. what is erected afterwards is almost always worse ironically. the only way corruption is reduced is citizens becoming smarter somehow and slowly allowing the elite to get away with less and less bad behaviour while also creating an intelligent incentive structure for the elites as well as everyone else to drive productive, pro-social behaviour. whats going on in most of the world and nepal is the opposite of that |
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| ▲ | ImPostingOnHN 4 days ago | parent [-] | | As you stated, one avenue of resolution has the prerequisite that 'citizens become smarter somehow', however that seems unlikely, particularly since the ruling power is actively sabotaging education. | | |
| ▲ | smeeger 4 days ago | parent [-] | | the common people are cheering on the damage so i wouldnt say it meets the criteria of sabotage. more like enabling it. and yes its unlikely thats why things are so terrible |
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