| ▲ | themgt 5 days ago |
| But we have to make an effort in the United States. We have to make an effort to understand, to get beyond, or go beyond these rather difficult times. My favorite poem, my -- my favorite poet was Aeschylus. And he once wrote: "Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God." What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence and lawlessness, but is love, and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country ... We can do well in this country. We will have difficult times. We've had difficult times in the past -- and we will have difficult times in the future. It is not the end of violence; it is not the end of lawlessness; and it's not the end of disorder. But the vast majority of [people] in this country want to live together, want to improve the quality of our life, and want justice for all human beings that abide in our land. And let's dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world. Let us dedicate ourselves to that, and say a prayer for our country and for our people. Bobby Kennedy, 1968 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2kWIa8wSC0 |
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| ▲ | mmastrac 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Speech made in April, 1968, assassinated on June 5, 1968. Wild. |
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| ▲ | ethbr1 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >> Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the Promised Land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land! [April 3, 1968 in Memphis, Tennessee] Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated on April 4, 1968. So perhaps a better excerpt in light of recent events would be >> And another reason that I'm happy to live in [the second half of the 20th century] is that we have been forced to a point where we are going to have to grapple with the problems that men have been trying to grapple with through history, but the demands didn't force them to do it. Survival demands that we grapple with them. Men, for years now, have been talking about war and peace. But now, no longer can they just talk about it. It is no longer a choice between violence and nonviolence in this world; it's nonviolence or nonexistence. That is where we are today. | | |
| ▲ | ruined 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | this is the complete transcript of that excerpted speech, often titled "I've Been to the Mountaintop" https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkivebeentothemou... | |
| ▲ | yakz 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It turns out, at least so far, we can still choose violence. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | His point was that once the physical power individuals/governments hold exceeds a threshold, a pluralistic society cannot coexist with violence being an acceptable option. In the context of the 1960s, governments and nuclear weapons. But more broadly the same holds true for individuals. Either we learn to live together despite our differences, or we use our newfound great power to annihilate each other. | | |
| ▲ | Retric 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Society can be shockingly resilient to personal violence especially if it’s primarily people at the top in terms of status, wealth, or political power are regularly getting assassinated. Recently gangs have been shockingly stable despite relentless violence but historically duals between gentlemen etc where quite common. By historical standards we’re living is a near paradise of non violence and that’s worth persevering at significant cost. | |
| ▲ | denkmoon 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It must be of the spirit if we are to save the flesh. https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/douglasmacarthurra... | |
| ▲ | giardini 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | ethbr1 says "...or we use our newfound great power to annihilate each other." That isn't possible without bio-warfare. I sometimes hear people foolishly speak of a shooting "race war" in the USA but always remind them that the active phase of such an event would last about 15 minutes. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Distributed mass hunting rifle shots on high voltage transformers. Unguarded. Scattered around the country. Any oil leaks potentially destroy them. Manufacturing backlogs of multiple years. https://www.energy.gov/oe/addressing-security-and-reliabilit... The only thing that's kept domestic terrorism to a minimum is that anyone smart enough to do it well has better economic opportunities. | | |
| ▲ | more_corn 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The tragedy is that several players in the transformer market went out of business because they ramped up due to the building boom before the financial crisis.
If I weren’t busy I’d go buy one of those old factories and open it back up. Great boring business to be in. |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | PicassoCTs 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | dfghjkl1 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think when it becomes normal for 10% or more of the citizens of a country to say they wouldn’t be upset if some member of the opposing political party were to die or when it becomes normal for that portion of the people to make fun or celebrate the death of someone from an opposing party or their murderer, everyone needs to take a step back regardless of which side you’re on and say “Why?” Because these people are not murderers or accomplices, and they are generally good people. These aren’t people that would lynch anyone or burn a cross in someone’s yard. It’s awful that anyone dies. Let’s not escalate this on either side. We don’t need another Hitler, and we don’t need a French Revolution either. We just need people that stop trying to outdo each other. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > everyone needs to take a step back regardless of which side you’re on and say “Why?” It's easy to get sucked into a learned helplessness doing this, though. We know exactly why it happens - Charlie Kirk explained it himself: "You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won’t have a single gun death. That is nonsense, [...] But I think it’s worth it. I think it’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational."
America means guns. It's written in our constitution, reinforced through our history, reflected in our multimedia franchises and sold to American citizens as a product. The only way out of this situation is through it - we can't declare a firearms ban in-media-res without inciting even more violence and dividing people further. At the same time, America cannot continue to sustain this loss of our politicians, schoolchildren and minority populations. The threat to democracy is real, exacerbated by the potential for further "emergency powers" abuse we're familiar with from both parties.When people push for firearms control in America, this is the polemic they argue along. You can say they're justified or completely bonkers, but denying that these scenarios exist is the blueprint for erasing causality. | | |
| ▲ | goshdangit 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | johnisgood 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 2 days ago | parent [-] | | None of that matters, though. Democracy continues working because the transition of power persists. If you disagree, there are plenty of other countries you can immigrate to that don't practice democracy. But this is how America works, and I'll defend it to the last even if I disagree with the extremists. | | |
| ▲ | johnisgood 2 days ago | parent [-] | | What are you thoughts on http://anthonyflood.com/rothbarddemocracy.htm? | | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think the "neoliberalism contradiction" point was tired when Hegel noticed it. America is (and has always been) mired in inequality, the system we have today doesn't need a refit. Judging by the last paragraph, it seems like Rothbard agrees on this. There's not much else to add that isn't buffeted in the essay itself. Representative democracy sucks dick, and the fact that Americans engage in politics vicariously ensures that our Volksgeist is reduced to petty arguments about Michelle Obama's penis. Appeals to transgression are a threat to all political systems, not just democracy. See my other comment about the Red Guard. | | |
| ▲ | johnisgood 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, but with this comment in mind, I do not quite understand "but this is how America works, and I'll defend it to the last even if I disagree with the extremists.", because it seems like you do want to change some things with regarding to how it works. This is what I was interested in. |
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| ▲ | agensaequivocum 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | No it's not because of the guns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Shinzo_Abe | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Shinzo Abe's killer was captured immediately, he had to walk right in front of him to get a shot off. Charlie Kirk's assassin is still at-large and fired from a standoff distance, with a conventional long-barrel firearm. Make of that what you will. | | |
| ▲ | johnisgood 4 days ago | parent [-] | | You added the term "conventional", except nothing about this is conventional. You said it yourself that the shooter is still at large... despite the involvement of the FBI and other agencies. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The firearm certainly seems conventional. Early reports suggest it was a bolt-action Mauser: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/what-we-know-about-weapon-u... Is there something I'm missing here? > despite the involvement of the FBI and other agencies. Many such cases. We're still looking for D. B. Cooper, aren't we? Did the FBI ever dig up Hoffa's body? The feds are hardly a panacea with these things. | | |
| ▲ | johnisgood 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Not everything is about the firearm itself and not even the shot, that many people focus on. And you need more context and the training required to take such a shot and then evade the local cops and FBI, with a solid escape plan from a fuckton of witnesses and so forth. And I did not mention that most people would probably panic and mess up, let alone take the shot and escape. It is much more complex than that. When you look at the pattern fit, it no longer looks like a spur-of-the-moment act by a "typical gun owner". They gave us some 22 years old kid as the person who pulled this whole operation, allegedly, and acted alone. Even if someone had been shooting since childhood, the rooftop selection, escape route, and casing inscriptions suggest deliberate operational planning and situational awareness, not just trigger skill. Shooting skill alone doesn't cover the logistics and environmental awareness. Plus a 22-year-old who "trained since childhood" might have technical skill, but most young adults still lack the composure and foresight to execute a high-stakes assassination with minimal mistakes, especially under the psychological pressure of killing a person in a public setting. FWIW, some cases remain unsolved for decades because of scarce evidence, degraded scenes, or lack of witnesses, which does not come into play here at all. Modern investigations, by contrast, often benefit from immediate CCTV, cell-data, social media, and so forth. ...thus I remain skeptical. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 2 days ago | parent [-] | | What is irregular about the firearm? The only details I've seen are the engraving, everything else is reportedly COTS. Please give me links to the information you're looking at if I'm missing anything. > but most young adults still lack the composure and foresight to execute a high-stakes assassination with minimal mistakes This is conjecture, unless you can back it up with a source. The history books are filled with 22-year-old kids shooting politicians and getting away with it, famously the Red Guard uninstalled an entire government with this strategy. With a bunch of riled-up students. I spent a lot of time at the range when I was a kid - hitting a 200yd shot from an elevated platform is not difficult with a M1903. A modern 63mm loading can easily push 3,000fps in a long-barrel rifle and if you reloaded the cartridge for a single-use assassination, I see no reason you couldn't push 5,000fps if the barrel doesn't explode from overpressure. With those kinds of ballistics its not a very tough shot unless you're shooting into a hurricane. All you need then is a hunting scope, and that can be bought for $170 in cash at Cabelas. > Modern investigations, by contrast, often benefit from immediate CCTV, cell-data, social media, and so forth. This I absolutely agree with. It sounds like the only reason they found him is because his friend turned in his Discord DMs, he might still be on the loose if not for the digital breadcrumb trail he left behind. Bit of a harrowing precedent for online privacy, but I presume that will fall on deaf ears. | | |
| ▲ | johnisgood 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Not everything is about the firearm and the shot, I am more interested in everything else (all the patterns and requirements) to pull this operation, including the composure I mentioned. There are many other things as well. > This is conjecture, unless you can back it up with a source. The history books are filled with 22-year-old kids shooting politicians and getting away with it, famously the Red Guard uninstalled an entire government with this strategy. With a bunch of riled-up students. Sure, it is, and I cannot back it up. He was operating alone, which is much different from doing it as a team, I believe. > It sounds like the only reason they found him is because his friend turned in his Discord DMs, he might still be on the loose if not for the digital breadcrumb trail he left behind. I thought it was his dad that turned him in, but regardless, the Discord messages are suspicious, because he went to great lengths as to successfully complete the mission, but he would talk about it on an online platform? Something makes me skeptical about it, but who knows. It is just pure speculation from me at this point, but it does not align well with the rest of his behavior, IMO. I get that criminals make mistakes, and perhaps it was just that. We will never truly know. |
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| ▲ | alsetmusic 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Just because you can cite an example of a killing without a gun says nothing about the reality about gun violence and gun culture in the USA. | | |
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| ▲ | s5300 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | bccdee 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | orwin 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | To be clear: Hitler was not put in power by any election. Von Papen and Hindeberg, under advice from industry leaders, gave him power. In fact, the Nazi party electoral results were down from the previous election. Both the socialist and communist party were up however, and so the men in power chose Hitler to change that. All of those were killed or politically neutered within 6 months, and honestly, they made their bed. | | |
| ▲ | bccdee 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The Nazis and the Communists won enough seats between them in 1932 that it was impossible for Hindenburg to form a government without one or the other. Hitler didn't win a majority, but he won more seats than anyone else, which was enough to ultimately finagle his way to the Chancellorship through broadly legitimate means. I'd call that an electoral victory, albeit a weaselly one. Of course, then the Reichstag caught fire, and that was about it for Weimar democracy. But up until that point, his political success came off the back of genuine popularity at the ballot box. He only managed to became Chancellor because enough people voted for him. | | |
| ▲ | orwin 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | He could forma coalition with the Socialists, but they pushed for an agrarian reform that would have taken power away from landlords/landowners in east germany, which was the conservative base of power. It was a choice: Socialists, Nazis or communist, and as always "Plutot Hitler que le Front Populaire", the extreme center choose fascism. The more thing changes, the more they stay the same. | |
| ▲ | ZeroGravitas 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | bccdee 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Oh I agree, I don't think the Republican agenda reflects some sort of authentic "will of the people." It's produced as much by propaganda as anything else. Nevertheless, it's propaganda that many Americans have swallowed, and those people then go on to put Republicans in power year after year. I can't fault Democrats for their bitterness towards Republican voters. | |
| ▲ | d1sxeyes 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’m not aware of any rigorous modelling that supports what Goering argued though. It’s certainly possible but it’s also not a given by a long shot. FPTP in the UK is not based on the popular vote, it’s essentially the outcome of 650 mini-elections. If Nazi support was efficiently distributed, there’s a good chance they’d have won a strong majority, but if support was focused geographically, they might have ended up with fewer seats. If you’re aware of any more accurate modelling, I’d be super interested though! |
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| ▲ | jepj57 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | bccdee 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Trump is actively arresting and deporting people for participating in pro-Palestine protests. What are Democrats doing that is even a fraction as censorious? | | |
| ▲ | jepj57 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Arresting and deporting illegal aliens or legal aliens, not citizens. Big difference | | |
| ▲ | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > people Well, they didn't say citizens. > for participating in pro-Palestine protests And you missed their main point. Your reply doesn't really seem to be in good faith. |
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| ▲ | ImPostingOnHN 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That doesn't really address anything in the post you responded to. Are you sure you replied to the right post? Usually replies address the post they respond to. If you're intentionally responding to just any post to vent your anger at people who you disagree with (i.e. it wasn't a mistake) then feel free to ignore me. | | |
| ▲ | jepj57 3 days ago | parent [-] | | It was a very one-sided post. Just balancing it out with exa.ples in the other direction. |
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| ▲ | chipsrafferty 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | flipwassal 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Do you know of whom they are speaking of when they say the 10%? It could be liberals, conservatives, moderates, expats from Europe, etc. I cannot believe that people think that violence is a good answer to anything. I don’t upvote these recent killing of political figures or C-levels at companies that destroy people’s lives. I sympathize with those that fight injustice and want the world changed for the better. But, there are often non-violent ways to do this. | | |
| ▲ | lovich 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > I cannot believe that people think that violence is a good answer to anything. There is quite a bit of philosophical arguments and discussions backing violence as _a_ solution, albeit not the only solution and usually one reserved for when other measures fail. Look to this treatise as a start[1] If you think it’s never a solution then all you have done is unilaterally disarmed, and ceded decision making power to those who still keep violence in their toolbox [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_War |
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| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | nobodywillobsrv 5 days ago | parent [-] | | No the empathy comment is about it being confused with naive sympathy. Empathy means fully simulating the other person state of mind and world. Empathy is cognitive spend. Love thy enemy is a short cut because human brains seem to be unable to think properly in anger. You need to simulate your enemy to understand their positions and seek deals. | | |
| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't follow what you're trying to say here. If you think that encouraging empathy is a bad thing and discouraging empathy is good, then there's little hope for you. The lack of empathy can easily be shown to lead to the evils of Nazism and the desire to be cruel to people who are not "in our group" (e.g. their skin colour is different or were born elsewhere) |
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| ▲ | lotsofpulp 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | nobodywillobsrv 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | idiotsecant 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | NeutralCrane 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The French Revolution was such an abject failure that within a decade they abandoned their republic and willingly made Napoleon a dictator. | |
| ▲ | dolmen 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | However France has strict firearms control so the scale of violence is still in control and shooting political figures is not common nowadays. | | |
| ▲ | ttoinou 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This is quite backwards. Right now revolts in France are useless. When they were useful back in the days, a lot of citizens had guns. Guns laws changed to reduce their powers | | |
| ▲ | prmoustache 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They are not useless in the sense that they are visible and at some point the state cannot only respond with more violence from police force forever or else the dictatorship becomes assumed. But current protests aren't revolts nor violence anyway. There is side/peripheral violence but that is not the point of the protests | | |
| ▲ | ttoinou 5 days ago | parent [-] | | the state cannot only respond with more violence from police force forever
As long as they control the media narrative it's all good it can continue for a long time |
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| ▲ | more_corn 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Revolts don’t need guns.
Look at Nepal. Look at Bangladesh. Look at the Arab spring. When people are so pissed off that millions of people take to the streets governments fall. |
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| ▲ | JodieBenitez 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We are 68 million and between hunters and sport shooters we have 5 million firearms owners for 10 million firearms. It's not on par with the US of course but I'd say firearms are pretty common (and it's not even counting illegal ones) and frankly it's not difficult nor long to acquire a good bolt action rifle and learn to shoot an apple at 200m. Long story short: I don't think lack firearms control is the issue in the US, there must be something else. | |
| ▲ | idiotsecant 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | philipallstar 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's only because they cut back on the cartoons they draw. | | |
| ▲ | fawkesalbus 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Many people here will tell you that cartoons represent violence, some types of speech represent violence etc. France no longer has free speech rights unless it is coming from the left | |
| ▲ | goshdangit 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | goshdangit 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | fawkesalbus 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] | | |
| ▲ | ath3nd 4 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | JPKab 4 days ago | parent [-] | | He was shot with a bolt action .30-06 hunting rifle. There has never been a proposed ban on these weapons. Your comment is essentially saying he deserved it, and that you see some form of cosmic justice here. Meanwhile, I've been reminded by your comment that people like you will celebrate the deaths of people they disagree with politically, which makes me less likely to support gun control. With neighbors like you, I'm going to hang onto them. The irony of people like you is your perceived moral superiority warps you into being a bad person. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The parent comment isn't celebrating his death. They did however cut off the quote, so I will render it in full here: "I think it’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational."
The fact that Charlie Kirk was murdered is reprehensible and sets an ill precedent for democracy. That is plainly apparent to anyone with a vested interest in peaceful political discourse. Washington DC has come together across the aisle to condemn this violence.The legacy Kirk leaves behind isn't incorrect or worth discarding; some violence is a part of any collective society. But at what point does the deal stop being prudent? How many politicians, schoolkids and religious groups have to be shot up before we reassess our laws? If we never stop, then the cycle is always waiting to start up again. The tinderbox can be lit for any reason, and give any administration just cause for martial law and "emergency powers" abuse. | |
| ▲ | ath3nd 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | fawkesalbus 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > Do I find Charlie's death hilarious considering his stance on gun laws? Yes. In fact, I think maybe we should come up to something similar to the Herman Cain award, but for gun lovers. No one actively made fun of the deaths of school kids or anyone on the left - the Hortmanns or the injury to Paul Pelosi. No one actually celebrates those tragedies. And yet here you are actively saying you find Charlie’s death hilarious. This is shameful and no sane person should feel happy that a person who advocated for free speech and nothing else has been assassinated. Also please read the guidelines that @dang has posted at the very beginning of this thread. May God help you find more peace and less hatred. | | |
| ▲ | ath3nd 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > No one actively made fun of the deaths of school kids or anyone on the left - the Hortmanns or the injury to Paul Pelosi > No one actually celebrates those tragedies. Yeah, some of the right wing figures outright questioned whether these things happened: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/09/alex-jones-asks-sup... Walking human expired cheese Donald Trump Jr. shared a pic of Paul Pelosi Halloween costume which does count as making fun. But freedom of speech, right? https://time.com/6226946/paul-pelosi-attack-gop-response-pol... And Charlie himself on the Pelosi case wanted a patriot to "Bail out" the assailant: https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/charlie-kirk-once-called... > This is shameful and no sane person should feel happy that a person who advocated for free speech and nothing else has been assassinated. I don't feel happy. Nobody should be shot.
However, Charlie did advocate for white supremacy: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/fact-check-charlie-kirk-once-22340... and did say that "Empathy is a made-up term" https://x.com/JasonSCampbell/status/1580241307515383808 so I feel 0 empathy for him, to honor his legacy of hating empathy and embracing gun deaths as worth it. > And yet here you are actively saying you find Charlie’s death hilarious I don't celebrate Charlie getting shot. Nobody deserves to get shot in the first place. Hell, nobody should own guns in the first place. But Charlie? He thought otherwise. He thought "some gun deaths are worth it" (Charlie's own words), and who am I to doubt him? A guy saying gun deaths are "worth it" (Charlie's words) getting shot? Hilarious. It's like Herman Cain opposing masks and social distancing dying from covid. Also hilarious. It's just the truth. > May God help you find more peace and less hatred. God doesn't exist, but if he did, he/she/they made the world a better place. Thoughts and prayers. |
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| ▲ | pyuser583 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't know how to properly apply that to the situation in Ukraine. |
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| ▲ | bamboozled 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Tragic, what a waste. |
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| ▲ | tmsh 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The most sustainable vision wins. And this is a great vision. Thanks for posting. Helped clarify how to think about today. |
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| ▲ | thrance 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The most sustainable vision wins eventually. If history has anything to teach us, is that it's full of extremely unpleasant periods between the stable ones. And things aren't looking like they're improving. | | |
| ▲ | chris_wot 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If that's the case, then the most sustainable vision gradually devolves into unsustainability. | | |
| ▲ | thrance 5 days ago | parent [-] | | That's what's happening. Neoliberalism is slowly drifting into fascism, as it has already done multiple times in the past. Maybe what comes after will be actually stable, and not just metastable. | | |
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| ▲ | goshdangit 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | And that vision can be dark or realistic. |
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| ▲ | lossolo 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That would be a great world if that vision could materialize. But as long as people continue polarizing society, exploiting emotions, and using divide and conquer[1] tactics to gain political power, not much will change, and things may even get worse. Social networks have amplified this dynamic more than ever before. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_conquer |
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| ▲ | armchairhacker 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There is hope. GP is currently the highest comment, and on other sites I've visited, while too many people cheer this or call for violent retaliation, most of the highly-upvoted comments (both liberal and conservative) condemn it and argue for de-escalation. Anger and fear are powerful emotions, but so is hope. Barack Obama campaigned on hope and became President, winning his first election with the highest %votes since 1988. Donald Trump also became President in part due to hope; his supporters expected him to improve their lives, while most of Hillary Clinton's and Kamala Harris's supporters just expected them to not make things worse. Now lots of people desperately need hope, and if things get worse more will. Irrational hope can be dangerous: all the time, people make decisions that backfire horribly, and deep down they knew those decisions would backfire horribly, but they made them anyways out of desperation for an unlikely success. Perhaps this is another example, where the assassin delusionally hoped it would somehow promote and further their desires, but it will almost certainly do the opposite. But hope can also be rational, and unlike anger and fear (which at best prevent bad things), hope can intrinsically be for causing good things. If a group or candidate that runs on hope for a better world gets enough attention and perceived status, it could turn public perception back to unity and optimism. | | |
| ▲ | nobodywillobsrv 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Have we considered that the assassin, directly or indirectly, is a seditious third party actor trying to destabilize the US? I am not claiming this is true. But merely that if I was employed to destabilize the US, I would claim to have been responsible for a number of recent events in order to please my boss. I am hoping the possibility of a joint common enemy can perhaps unite people in America a bit. | | |
| ▲ | fakedang 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There's also a possibility that a democratic country in the Middle East with the letter I is involved here, because Charlie Kirk began publicly questioning and speaking about the billions in financial aid it receives. Seems pretty petty on the surface but apparently this country cannot afford to take further hits to its image worldwide, especially in the US. | | | |
| ▲ | tremon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How would you define "third party" in this case? We now know that the assassin was a follower of Nick Fuentes, acting on the suggestion of Laura Loomer. Both are working with Donald Trump on destabilizing the US. On top of that, the victim itself was also a seditious actor trying to destabilize the US. In that light, does it really matter what tier party the assassin belonged to? The joint common enemy you allude to is already inside the white house, and as long as that is still up for debate, the country has no future. | |
| ▲ | card_zero 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, I was considering that just now, and I thought it's probably not Russians, anyway. There's been a series of actual Russian attempts to destabilize France, including one in the news currently, and they're crude and easily traced because they're carried out by hiring Serbians and Moldovans and Bulgarians to make a relatively short journey and do something relatively easy and low-risk, motivated by money. The guy who shot Trump in the ear had (arguably) no particular ideology or goal, just an interest in assassinations and a possible depressive disorder. |
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| ▲ | type0 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > But hope can also be rational it's not, poor parents can't feed their children with hope | | |
| ▲ | armchairhacker 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Can be rational. Not everyone is inescapably poor, and for those with opportunities, hope can motivate them out while despair leaves them stuck. |
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| ▲ | throwawayqqq11 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | itbeho 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >> so fox news could tell the sheeps that it wasnt them Your dehumanizing rhetoric is part of the problem. Please read Dang's post at the top of this thread. | |
| ▲ | goshdangit 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | camillomiller 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I believe that social media tapped inadvertently into the most effective way ever existed to do this.
None of the billionaires really wanted them, I think it was just a happy accident. But instead of recognizing that, they all doubled down with gaslighting and toxicity, because admitting they created a monster would just go against them becoming powerful and rich.
And also, let's admit it, because they genuinely can't see it as the monster it is, because it doesn't affect them directly. |
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| ▲ | AbstractH24 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| While I like that quote, i just went to lookup the speach and was sadden to learn you “sanitized” it. Taking out the phrase “vast majority of white people and vast majority of black people” That too says something about our times. Maybe a few things. From being unable to trust things without verifying, to people’s willingness to alter the truth to make a point, to how people fear discussing race and gender loud even in passing. |
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| ▲ | notapenny 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It think it says something that you'd be willing to jump to conclusions. You "learned" it was sanitised and make a point about people willing to alter the truth, then you personally attach some meaning to it. You made up your own reality, when the word "[people]" literally indicates that the OP did change the quote. Instead of assuming malice, you could have also just asked why they changed it, or looked up why words would be in brackets, or give the OP the benefit of the doubt. | | |
| ▲ | AbstractH24 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If you selectively put words in [brackets] and remove others without adding ellipses you can alter anything to have any meaning. I for one read this and assumed RFK was just discussing gun control in general, only weeks before he was killed. Adding in the context the speech was regarding MLK gives it a whole different meaning. Still powerful, but different. Attributing “The only thing we [experience] is fear itself” to FDR suggests he said something a little different. That FDR needs to see a therapist for his anxiety. | |
| ▲ | sarlalian 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This assumes facts not in evidence. While the posted quote is sanitized, the assumption that the poster did the sanitization vs. copying from a sanitized source isn't necessarily supported. | | |
| ▲ | notapenny 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Fair enough. But no need for the faux-legalese, it isn't clear whether the OP sanitised it or copied it that way. That changes nothing about my comment though, just who sanitised it. |
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| ▲ | Fluorescence 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | And the "those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or whether they be black" which has always stuck in my mind because of the iconic phrasing. Frankly I find creating an analogue between the death of MLK and Kirk in bad taste only magnified by scrubbing race from an MLK tribute. Kirk would have celebrated MLK's death as he did the Pelosi hammer attack. Kirk called MLK "awful" and "not a good person" and the Civil Rights Movement "a huge mistake.". https://www.wired.com/story/charlie-kirk-tpusa-mlk-civil-rig... | | |
| ▲ | vkou 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It is fascinating to see how many people are projecting their own best beliefs onto Kirk, while ignoring all his worst ones. It's a reflection of how they see themselves, not of how he was as a man. Given his comments on the Pelosi attack, it's clear that he didn't believe that people should be safe from violence for their political beliefs. Given his comments on trans people[1], it's clear that he didn't believe that they should be safe from violence for the crime of... Being trans. He would fail to meet the standards of civility set for this thread, or for this forum. Politics is a barrier that protects us from political violence. The worst practitioners of it know this, and act to encourage escalation that will obliterate that barrier. So far, they've been rewarded by wealth and power for their efforts. --- [1] Charlie Kirk has called for "men to handle" trans people "the way they did in the 50s and 60s." Is this how someone just harmlessly opening up a civil dialogue behaves? https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/this-must-stop-tpusas-cha... | | |
| ▲ | NickC25 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >It is fascinating to see how many people are projecting their own best beliefs onto Kirk, while ignoring all his worst ones. It's a reflection of how they see themselves, not of how he was as a man. What is sad is that his views were degenerate, reprehensible and abhorrent, yet that seems to get ignored. Hey all you Kirk fans - LGBTQ+ are humans. Trans are humans. Black people are humans. Palestine exists. Jews are humans. Muslims are humans. Women can do more than make babies, cook, and clean. Democrats aren't anti-america, don't hate the country, and by and large don't call for violence or celebrate those that do. Not everyone is some crazed extremist. Nobody is a second class citizen and nobody deserves to suffer because of what they look like or how they were born or who they pray to or anything. Get over it. While I don't condone violence at all, if you advocate for gun violence, you reap what you sow. If you preach extremism, don't be surprised if you're met with extremists. You can't claim to have given your life to Christ when you openly preach hate. This man was a devout preacher of the gospel of Supply-Side Jesus. Kirk and his ilk are the types that if the actual Jesus of Nazareth appeared in middle America, they'd call him a commie sand n-word and call ICE. Kirk was the epitome of a bully albeit one who bullied others under the guise of "debate". I have a ton of sympathy for the children shot at a school yesterday. If I want to really feel bad, I feel for those who were shot with assault weaponry at Sandy Hook and likely died and bled out in the same way Kirk did. Just because he was a rich white "christian" dude with a blonde wife, doesn't mean he wasn't a reprehensible piece of shit. | | |
| ▲ | serf 4 days ago | parent [-] | | there is a time and place to try to heal the damage you believe that he did to society -- but you're clearly celebrating the death of the man in a thread about his assassination. You seem to be nonplussed about his suffering, you're criticizing the way a dead man expressed his religious beliefs to the audience, and are implying that his beliefs on gun control somehow balanced his death. Doesn't that help fuel the narratives about his political opposition that he tried to drive while living? >Not everyone is some crazed extremist. ...maybe so, but the death of this dude sure did pull some out of thin air. | | |
| ▲ | vkou 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There's nothing in the parent post that celebrates the assassination. It expresses no empathy for him, but lack of empathy is not a celebration. It does outline the various ways in which Kirk worked to make the world a worse place, but an accounting of it is not a celebration of a public killing. "Religious beliefs" is not a weapon or a shield that you can just raise to deflect all criticism of a man's actions. It rings especially hollow for one whose behavior was so highly un-Christ-like. | |
| ▲ | ChainnChompp 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I see nothing "celebrating" anything in that comment. Just some facts about someone who's ideologies they found reprehensible - as most should by the sounds of it. | |
| ▲ | NickC25 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > but you're clearly celebrating the death of the man in a thread about his assassination. I'm not celebrating anything. I'm pointing out irony. You call for gun violence, thinking you're untouchable (because of your skin color and political ties), but you're not. >you're criticizing the way a dead man expressed his religious beliefs to the audience Hang on here. Let's unpack this. This is actually pretty humorous. Let's take the story of Jesus of Nazareth. A poor, brown skinned Jewish guy from Israel born out of wedlock who worked as a carpenter and preached love, compassion, and understanding, whose supposed miracles included healing the sick and disfigured. He worked to feed the needy, clothe the naked, advocated for paying taxes, and treating one's enemies with compassion as if they were their own kin. This person was executed by being nailed to a cross and in his final moments, still asked his followers to forgive his executioners. We have a rich white dude, raised in a wealthy first world major city suburb using the above gentleman's message to preach hate, racial superiority, phobia, and outright bigotry, all under the guise of "asking tough questions". This dude would go around and "debate" young adults (and children) half his age and use "gotcha" tactics and quick speaking to overwhelm and gish gallop his opposition into giving up. He would then selectively edit the "debates" and post them online to create a strawman for his political allies to punch. Religious beliefs, eh? Come on. |
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| ▲ | Yeul 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I had never heard of this guy and thanks to the Streisand effect I learned that he was a piece of shit.
And now het gets canonised like MLK?!
Tells you a lot about right wing America. But still: murder is murder. | | | |
| ▲ | fawkesalbus 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | fawkesalbus 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Removing the black and white people part makes it more relevant to the current times when it is not just black and white people but non negligible numbers of Hispanics, first peoples, Asians, Arabs and other minorities. | | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There were non-negligible numbers of those people in MLK, Jr’s time, too. That has nothing to do with why he talked about white and black. EDIT: It’s particularly funny to imagine that First peoples somehow only became a thing in America sometime after Dr. King’s time. | | |
| ▲ | AbstractH24 4 days ago | parent [-] | | But advocating for the struggles of one group and not another shouldn’t make one bad. The whole idea of intersectionality makes it hard to build coalitions and turns everything into a problem that’s impossibly complex to solve and difficult to build a coalition around. It’s the basic reason many leaders who the majority of a country dislike rise to power. Because that majority can’t put their differences aside. | | |
| ▲ | alsetmusic 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > But advocating for the struggles of one group and not another shouldn’t make one bad. He didn't advocate for but against. He advocated against people who weren't his version of correct. He advocated for suppression, not liberation. I don't think you're saying he advocated for the struggles of any marginalized group, but your comment could be read as such. Charlie Kirk was a bigot who wanted his political "enemies" to suffer. | | |
| ▲ | fawkesalbus 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Why does a group have to marginalized to be worthy of advocacy? Charlie only ever expressed his opinion in written and verbal form. That is the bare minimum requirement for free speech. Once you start getting to “oh but this is hate speech” or “ free speech, but XYZ” then there is no free speech. The first amendment becomes meaningless. He never suppressed or oppressed anyone like what DEI has been doing by openly discriminating against people based on their skin color (and therefore presumed financial status). He had no version of correct and he didn’t want anyone to suffer. He merely spoke and wrote his opinion and for that “crime” and that alone, someone decided to hate him so much that they decided to silence him forever. This is sad and shameful (as have been the attacks and assassinations of any elected official or public figure in the past many months). | | |
| ▲ | toomanyrichies 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > He never suppressed or oppressed anyone..." Really? "Reject feminism. Submit to your husband, Taylor. You’re not in charge." [1] "...he didn’t want anyone to suffer." Really? "We need to have a Nuremberg-style trial for every gender-affirming clinic doctor. We need it immediately." [1] "He had no version of correct..." Really? "The American Democrat party hates this country. They wanna see it collapse. They love it when America becomes less white." [1] 1. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/11/charlie-kirk... |
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| ▲ | AbstractH24 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why, shouldn’t we be able to adapt the struggles of one ear to those of another? And understand things with nuance. |
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| ▲ | pyuser583 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A nitpicky note: Aeschylus didn't say that. RFK probably studied Aeschylus in the original Greek, and did an on-the-fly translation. A more literal translation is: "Zeus, who guided men to think, who has laid it down that wisdom comes alone through suffering. Still there drips in sleep against the heart grief of memory; against our will temperance comes. From the gods who sit in grandeur grace is somehow violent." There's no "turning the other cheek here." It claims violence does indeed beget violence, and there's no human way around that. To be clear, I'm not advocating violence, or even criticizing RFK. I'm simply defending the purity of Aeschylus. |
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| ▲ | rickydroll 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Thanks, this is what I needed to hear. |
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| ▲ | hintymad 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > what we need in the United States is not hatred What saddens me is people take different political views as hatred, and medias run with it. I can't remember how many times a person is labeled fascist or communist just because their views are different. |
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| ▲ | istjohn 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Kirk didn't deserve to die for having or expressing hateful ideas, but his views were not merely "different." Charlie Kirk speaking about a trans athlete: "Someone should've just took care of it the way we used to take care of things in the 1950s or 60s[0]. And [1]: > America was at its peak when we halted immigration for 40 years and we dropped our foreign-born percentage to its lowest level ever. We should be unafraid to do that. And [1]: > The great replacement strategy, which is well under way every single day in our southern border, is a strategy to replace white rural America with something different. 0. https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/this-must-stop-tpusas-cha... 1. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/11/charlie-kirk... | | | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > What saddens me is people take different political views as hatred Some political views are hatred, and ignoring that doesn’t serve any useful purpose. | |
| ▲ | wturner 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Charlie Kirk was a theocrat. He hid behind freedom of speech with the intent to remove it for everyone else once in power. Freedom of speech is completely incompatible with theocracy. The reason people like Peter Thiel prop him up isn't to make people smart - it's to dumb them down and legitimize the worst in people for political gain. | |
| ▲ | dmbche 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you think some political opinions can be hateful | |
| ▲ | alsetmusic 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The people crying fascist are sometimes correct. The people crying communist genuinely seem to think it applies to Democrats. Democrats are a center-right party by European standards. There's a side that is genuinely, factually, deliberately misled by their politicians on a routine basis and it plugs into Fox News. This isn't a political statement. It's documented up and down. | | |
| ▲ | tempaccountabcd 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | tirant 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Unfortunately that is not true anymore. Some far-left policies have been implemented or originated first in the US, in the democrat environment and later imported to Europe with more or less success. It is funny that every side believes that the other side is genuinely, factually and deliberately misled by their politicians on a routine basis. | | |
| ▲ | thrance 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Like what, seriously? I don't remember Kamala going on about seizing land and killing landlords. Get fucking real. |
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| ▲ | scrubs 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Aeschylus is a great greek poet. For our purposes here I might advocate for Jung (paraphrasing from memory) In the end there is no going forward in the current context; there are no solutions there. It requires renewed vigor to move to a higher, better frame where growth is possible. For us americans: political identity (libs v. Trump) has no solutions. Better: the political parties need to serve us. Dead kids or abused kids by adults (Epstein) cannot stand. What can 3.5 std deviations of center left and right get together over? Kids surely. And the knowledge (as Aeschylus narrates well elsewhere with the furies) that violence begets violence surely. |
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| ▲ | Palomides 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | causal 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Source? | | |
| ▲ | Palomides 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think feelings on immigration show that there isn't a "vast majority" of people who want to "live together" and "abide" each other 35% of americans are happy with how the current administration has been handling immigrants https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigratio... approval of ICE is around 40% https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2025/08/27/republicans-... edit: it's funny to see my post above offended(?) people who want to believe that americans are kind and loving, despite uh being on a post where everyone is arguing about how bad the political violence and polarization situation is in the US | | | |
| ▲ | underlipton 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | marcusverus 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | otterley 5 days ago | parent [-] | | For a very specific and narrowly-held view of justice, perhaps. | | |
| ▲ | skissane 5 days ago | parent [-] | | A lot of people in the US seem to view deporting illegal immigrants as some far-right move bordering on fascism Meanwhile, in Australia, it is a bipartisan policy. Read this article about what the centre-left Albanese government just did: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/sep/04/labor... (that article technically isn’t about “illegal immigrants”, it is about a group of people who are predominantly legal immigrants who have had their visas cancelled due to criminal convictions-but they don’t treat the illegal immigrants any better) | | |
| ▲ | underlipton 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It will be a legitimate value when employers who abuse the presence of undocumented immigrants are held criminally accountable, and/or when legislators take action, per bipartisan request, to legalize the de facto state of immigration in the Americas, of whatever character and magnitude that social stability can afford. Until then, it's just xenophobia and racism, and especially egregious because a good number of "immigrants" are the descendants of people who've lived on and migrated around this continent for 10,000+ years. | |
| ▲ | otterley 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | We've been deporting illegal immigrants for as long as there has been an immigration policy--and yes, that policy is bipartisan. See the data at https://ohss.dhs.gov/topics/immigration/yearbook/2022/table3... -- and consider who held office when the removal rate doubled in 1997. (2021 is an anomalous year, for reasons you can probably guess.) The contentious issue is not whether the law is being enforced, but rather how it is enforced. Most first-world countries do it with a certain amount of decorum. We've been doing it since Trump regained office with a shock-and-awe approach that is highly disruptive, violent, and of questionable legality. | | |
| ▲ | marcusverus 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | skissane 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > and will shortly have in Texas. Democrats have been dreaming of “turning Texas blue” for years now, but I’m sceptical that will ever happen. The GOP-and Trump in particular-has been making big inroads with Hispanic Texans. The idea that a “minority-majority” US would result in permanent rule by the Democratic party relied on the assumption that Democrats have a permanent lock on ethnic/racial minority voters-an assumption which appears increasingly dubious | |
| ▲ | otterley 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The is obviously nonsense. Which part is the nonsense part of what I said? > Biden actually apologized for deporting illegals Where? I can find no such record. I do see him regretting using the word "illegals" instead of "undocumented". See e.g. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-regrets-using-illegal... > Democrats (or, at least, democrat leadership) support illegal immigration because they want a demographically-guaranteed majority in the US 1. This makes no sense. Only citizens can vote, and so no number of undocumented immigrants in the country can affect an election outcome. 2. Democrats don't support illegal immigration as such. However, they do recognize the complexities of the labor force and the practical reality that undocumented immigrants do a lot of unskilled labor from agriculture to janitorial services, and thus tough enforcement of the laws and removing them all would have serious adverse consequences to our economy. They have tried to boost legal immigration but have been stonewalled. > Anyone who says they don't understand this is a liar or a naif. Personal attacks aren't permitted here. People are entitled to have reasonable disagreements. |
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| ▲ | bdangubic 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | otterley 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Correction: hate unchecked and amplified by social media wins elections. David Duke and Pat Buchanan, both notorious racists (the former being Grand Wizard of the KKK), ran for President but the mainstream media (which were once the only media most people consumed) constrained their influence. | | |
| ▲ | bagels 5 days ago | parent [-] | | That isn't happening anymore, and now we also have social media. |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | notmyjob 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There is both Eros and Thanatos. Everything ad based (social media, evening news, YouTube, Reddit, elections) turns towards Thanatos ultimately. They used to put hidden images of skulls and other dark and dangerous subliminal symbology in whiskey ads back in 70s. Sex sells, maybe, but if it bleeds it leads. |
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| ▲ | hamhock666 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Slavery was only ended by violence I don't think this is quite true, it may have ended it faster, but I don't think it would still exist today if the civil war had not happened. Most other countries ended slavery without a violent civil war, especially if you think about the way technology vastly outweighed the usefulness of having slaves. And then when Charlie Kirk says "Some deaths were worth it...", he is talking about accidents and abuses of guns by shooters. He doesn't mean that violence is the answer to politics, it would be great if nobody died from mass shootings. But he is saying that having the right to bear arms to defend yourself is preferable to the alternative where you have no right to do that. | | |
| ▲ | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > > Slavery was only ended by violence > I don't think this is quite true Slavery could have been ended peacefully if the slavers allowed it. | |
| ▲ | bb88 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | He doesn't say that. You're editorializing on his behalf. Here's the full quote. He's fully aware of violence cause by mental illness and domestic terrorism. >> You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won't have a single gun death. That is nonsense. It's drivel. But I am, I, I — I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational. Nobody talks like this. They live in a complete alternate universe. >> So then, how do you reduce? Very simple. People say, oh, Charlie, how do you stop school shootings? I don't know. How did we stop shootings at baseball games? Because we have armed guards outside of baseball games. That's why. How did we stop all the shootings at airports? We have armed guards outside of airports. How do we stop all the shootings at banks? We have armed guards outside of banks. How did we stop all the shootings at gun shows? Notice there's not a lot of mass shootings at gun shows, there's all these guns. Because everyone's armed. If our money and our sporting events and our airplanes have armed guards, why don't our children? | | |
| ▲ | kanbara 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | it's such an insane american belief that the answer to safety is not: reduce gun amounts, reduce what guns people can buy, improve mental health counseling, improve healthcare, improve quality of life through cheaper housing and well-paying jobs, but instead the copout which doesn't even work--adding armed police outside of every school. uvalde called, it doesn't work. and the rest of the world looks on in shame at this exceptionally american and exceptionally cruel system. | | | |
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| ▲ | DetroitThrow 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | bb88 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Mods: You know this post doesn't actually advocate violence. So why are you flagging it down? | | |
| ▲ | DetroitThrow 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I understand if this is a sensitive time, that comparisons to the civil war may not be the most helpful. However, if these are not helpful, I would hope we would not attempt to use these moments that we should be united in attempting to claim that slavery in the United States would have simply stopped. Historians today reject this, and historians like Eric Foner, Gavin Wright, James Oakes have all written books that provide evidence that slavery was expanding and evolving, and that a major cornerstone for nearly half of the country's economy was not going to disappear in 10, 20, or 100 years. IRC was invented before the end of the South African apartheid - the United States was lucky to avoid such a terrible fate. As an aside, it's not pleasant to see speculative conjecture about the inevitable end of slavery side-by-side with quotations from RFK, and feels counter to the goal of the pinned comment. Thanks to the mod team for generally keeping this comment section civil. |
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| ▲ | buildsjets 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | miltonlost 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | rKarpinski 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Bobby Kennedy made that speech, was assassinated shortly afterwards, and Nixon won, prolonging the Vietnam War for another 6 years. Bobby Kennedy, also made a historic speech in Indianapolis that quelled rioting after the MLK assassination You are talking about the same speech. It was a great speech | | |
| ▲ | bb88 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I mistyped that, and it was. It was a great speech. |
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| ▲ | kragen 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | As long as some of us are still alive, violence hasn't won. | | |
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