There are probably a bunch of videos in this genre, but I found [0] to be a particularly good explanation of why Hollow Knight felt so good. If you’re experienced at game design none of this is probably news to you, but if you’re unfamiliar with terms like “coyote time”, “jump buffering” etc., this video is a great introduction to how video games break physical realism to provide a better-feeling experience, and how tuning this is critical to getting a game which feels great. Silksong is presumably using all the same techniques.

[0]: https://youtu.be/Vxt8uud5o_4

▲

thaumasiotes 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Silksong is presumably using all the same techniques.

But Silksong feels terrible. Its movement is awful and difficult to control. Hollow Knight felt smooth. Silksong is the opposite of that.

This very post is mixing its message:

>> The secret to why this game is like crack is the movement. The movement is so buttery smooth that simply getting back to the boss that just ripped you to shreds is a complex, skillful, and fundamentally enjoyable experience.

>> So am I having fun? I certainly don't feel joy in my heart when I fall into the lava for the seventeenth time because I missed a jump (if lava was a boss it would easily take the top spot for the number of times it killed me).

Falling into lava seventeen times because you keep missing the same jump is not an experience of smooth movement with player affordances.

Interestingly, there is coyote time in Silksong, but not enough that you can reliably do dash-jumps. It's just that occasionally you'll notice a jump starting from the wrong location, a little to the side of and below the edge you wanted to leap off of. Much more often, you'll notice that you hit the jump button but the jump never went off, which is the exact problem coyote time is supposed to solve.

▲

sfn42 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Falling into lava seventeen times because you keep missing the same jump is not an experience of smooth movement with player affordances.

I would describe that as a skill issue. And I think Silksong feels great. I'm enjoying the crap out of it. Regarding coyote time I haven't noticed it myself but what you describe just seems like the margins are thin. You wish they were wider ie you wish the game was easier but there's lots of people who enjoy it for what it is.

To me it's an amazing game, absolutely incredible.

	▲	johnnyanmac 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		>You wish they were wider ie you wish the game was easier I mean, the ones for Hollow knight felt wider. I think the main issue is that The Knight moved much slower and you had to time dashes anyway. Hornet's sprint has much fewer coyote frames compared to her and the Knight's dash.

▲

Moomoomoo309 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Get the Wanderer crest, once you have that, your moveset is almost identical to the original Hollow Knight. It makes a big difference.

▲

stevenwoo 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am unsure if I am just terrible at this game or more of a casual gamer with poor reflexes now, but Silksong feels particularly unforgiving. I did all the jumping puzzles in the most recent Prince of Persia game and figured out almost all of the puzzles and bosses in Metroid Dread after practice (lots of trial and error) without resorting to walk throughs, Silksong just revels in punishing you for making mistakes and forcing you to work to get back to where you just died.

▲

the_af 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

For the record, I didn't enjoy Hollow Knight much either. It felt too repetitive and difficult to me...

▲

thaumasiotes 3 days ago | parent [-]

This article concludes with the thought "if you liked Hollow Knight, you won't like Silksong".

That is the same conclusion that I and my brother both came to. The game is bizarrely punitive, from the very beginning, for no reason. It's as if they thought of it as being the next Hollow Knight expansion after Godhome, providing an additional challenge for the people who have beaten every pantheon with all bindings. ("The new challenge is: all of your controls now do something different!")

But it's a sequel. Supposedly. Most sequels are aiming to appeal at least as much to players who enjoyed the first game as they do to a hypothetical new audience.

▲

johnnyanmac 3 days ago | parent [-]

Is it really that bad? The beginning definitely ramps things up, but I don't think anyone who beat Hollow knight would call Silksong "punitive", at least not for the 10 hours I've played so far. The area I struggled in the most was clearly one I wasn't "supposed" to go into yet, but otherwise the difficulty curve is only slightly steeper than HK's early game.

Some discourse makes it sound like we're thrown 20 hours into HK at the beginning of Silksong. I know I'm biased as someone who beat 100% of Hollow Knight (granted, there's 112% of completion, so I did not in fact beat ALL the content), since I've played more HK than average.

	▲	bernds74 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		It is that bad, at least for me. I enjoyed the first 8 hours of Silksong, but it turned very quickly after that because the punishments were just completely outweighing the rewards. No health upgrade in that time, no meaningful combat upgrade, and just an endless amount of bullshit. Like those birds that will always mirror your movement to stay just out of reach, move erratically otherwise so you're guaranteed not to get a hit in (forget about hitting them with your spear when they're in the air), and just when you managed to get under them where you might be able to land a hit they'll drop down on you to deal contact damage and flutter away again. 10 hours in, and I've not even started the game since Saturday afternoon, when I was expecting not to be able to drag myself away from it (being a huge fan of the first Hollow Knight).

▲

slightwinder 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Silksong is presumably using all the same techniques.

They are similar, but different on annoying details.

▲

osu_Vanilla 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]