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adriand 2 days ago

> I guess our cultures are simply too different, but it genuinely seems like people saw all animals as "things" until, like, the 1950s or something like that.

There’s a weird disconnect where people ignore or are wilfully ignorant of cruelty to animals in industrial food production but are sensitive to it in virtually every other context. I saw a woman the other day who was tending to an injured pigeon and had called animal welfare people to come tend to it. Meanwhile, millions of chickens live in appalling conditions and die horrible deaths en masse.

I am genuinely unsure where this disconnect comes from. I was the same for most of my life but a few years ago, I started thinking about the animals I was eating and then I couldn’t eat them any more.

I don’t begrudge people their compassion. A few nights ago I went outside to put some stuff on the barbecue and my wife was in the backyard, concerned for the fate of a female cardinal that had flown into our sunroom window. It was stunned and couldn’t fly. Its mate was worriedly flitting through nearby bushes. “That’s so sad,” my wife said. “Yes,” I agreed, and then I put her skewers of meat on the barbecue.

keiferski 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It is mostly just proximity and framing. A hurt wild animal is alive and right in front of you. Meat from the grocery store is a prepackaged product that isn’t mentally associated with the bloody process behind the scenes required to get it there. The commercial aspect is pretty dependent on this distancing.

Case-in-point: I once stayed in a small town in Morocco for a few weeks. There wasn’t a grocery store nearby, just a market, and if you wanted chicken, they killed it in front of you. Needless to say, being directly confronted with the process…I didn’t eat meat the entire time.

cylemons 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Also a matter of purpose, killing animals for food is more acceptable than killing them for sport or entertainment

yurishimo 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Exactly this. Meat is a huge source of nutrition. Even though in our modern western society, we might not "need" to eat meat, but it's a hearty, plentiful, accessible protein and fat that stores well and can be easily moved and replicated quickly. It's simply much more practical still to keep eating meat in much of the world. I'm not going to go into the arguments about our biology either, but I think it's safe to say that our bodies are also very finely tuned to eat and process organic (from organisms) meat and use it as fuel. Sure, you can feed your cat a vegan diet or whatever and replace all of the vitamins, but there is no denying that the more "natural" way would be to just eat the meat and be done with it.

Many of the arguments for veganism come alongside ideas for better animal welfare, but the two are not mutually exclusive. The only reason we don't eat grandma after she dies is because it's culturally unacceptable. We can apply more respect and reverence to meat production without stopping entirely or pretending that the benefits of eating meat don't exist.

throwway120385 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Eating Grandma is actually a really good way to get parasites and prion diseases, so there's more to it than just cultural acceptability. The reason we don't risk parasites from farmed meat is because it's dewormed and treated and inspected and cleaned.

DonHopkins 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Free Range Grandma is more humane, but has more parasites.

yurishimo 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean, sure. But we could do all of those same things to Grandma in 2025 as well.

antonvs 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

"Time for your deworming, Granny! I'm hungry!"

cylemons 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Also, culture is shaped by biology, our brains are wired to find meat delicious because it gives us the proteins we need to survive.

chithanh a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the developed world and large parts of the developing world, meat is consumed for entirely hedonic reasons (ie. for pleasure). I would not consider this materially different from killing for sports or entertainment.

cylemons 20 hours ago | parent [-]

It is different tho, atleast eating meat is nutritionally beneficial while killing for sports is a waste of time.

aziaziazi 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

One could say the same with slaves: slaves for work are more acceptable than for fun.

dotancohen 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

  > if you wanted chicken, they killed it in front of you. Needless to say, being directly confronted with the process…I didn’t eat meat the entire time.
The one time I had opportunity to kill a bird with my own hands and eat it, I ate it with far greater respect and less waste than any meat I'd ever even before or since. I wish there were an efficient way to bring the consumer closer to the animal in everyday Western society. I doubt that we would consume less meat, but we would certainly have more respect for it.
pegasus a day ago | parent [-]

They would definitely waste less of it, and probably consume less as well.

ahofmann 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To make it worse: it's not millions of chickens, that live in appaling conditions and die horrible deaths. We kill around 50 billion chickens every year. That is 137 million chickens every day. Chickens that are used for eating are alive for around 28 to 42 days. That are 3.8 to 5.7 billion chicken on any day.

The numbers might be slightly off, because chicken raised for eggs are alive longer (around a year).

shawn_w 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Chickens bred for eating ("meat birds") often can't live much past when they'd be slaughtered without massive health issues. They've been turned into freaks.

nytesky 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Forced molting for egg layers is very cruel. Starvation and thirst to lose feathers and rebate egg laying.

We only buy humane eggs when we can, and I believe organic doesn’t practice it either.

SapporoChris 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is why I support whaling. One whale can feed many people, one chicken not so many. All whales harvested are free range.

sethammons 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

One whale takes much more time and energy than the equivalent food that comes from chicken. Much, much, much more efficient to eat chicken. Whales would entirely disappear if harvested at the same similar rates calories consumed.

SapporoChris 2 days ago | parent [-]

If it takes a little more effort to reduce suffering for animals then I'm okay with that.

However, I do not support unsustainable hunting. Please have some charity and don't imply such.

saagarjha a day ago | parent [-]

What is your solution to the problem posed above then?

gora_mohanty 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I wholly support this logic, and want it extended to humans: Soylent Green will be the next food craze

petesergeant 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I am genuinely unsure where this disconnect comes from

Much easier to sympathise with a live animal that looks like an animal than with a brown rectangle covered in sauce. Also much easier to sympathise with the plight of one entity rather than millions: a GoFundMe for a relatable charity case rather than helping the billions of people worldwide who need it

schneehertz 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Mencius, a thinker from over 300 BC, once said: "A gentleman, in his attitude towards animals, having seen them alive, cannot bear to see them die; having heard their cries, cannot bear to eat their flesh. Therefore, a gentleman keeps his distance from the kitchen."

The background of this statement is as follows: King Xuan of Qi once saw a man leading an ox to be slaughtered. Moved by the ox's sorrowful appearance, he was deeply distressed and ordered the butcher to spare the ox. However, the butcher informed him that the ox was intended for sacrificial rites. It must be noted that in ancient times, the two most important affairs of the state were sacrifices and warfare. Sparing the ox would have violated the moral principles of the time. In desperation, King Xuan came up with the idea: "Why not replace this ox with a sheep?" Later, the more he reflected on it, the more absurd he found his own decision. He then sought advice from Mencius, who uttered this statement in response.

Mencius believed that what distinguishes humans from beasts is humanity, meaning that humans treat all things with kindness, but human goodness is limited. Therefore, a gentleman practices kindness by helping those in front of him, unable to extend it to all.

lazide 2 days ago | parent [-]

And then King Xuan declared war on a neighboring kingdom of course, leading to hundreds of thousands of humans dying?

The core nature of humanity is absurdity.

kridsdale1 2 days ago | parent [-]

All moral frameworks get suspended in time of war.

a-french-anon 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Cruelty" is a rhetoric word because its meaning is caught between the classical "deliberate causing of pain" and the new "neglect, indifference towards another's pain" and of course, that discrepancy is fully exploited. What livestock beasts suffer is purely for practical reasons.

>I am genuinely unsure where this disconnect comes from

1. Empathy is a base emotional response triggered by nearby animals, not a rational/moral one.

2. Empathy is also an evolutionary tool that "happened" in (some) humans to help survive situations that require some sort of cooperation, like harsh winters. Anthropomorphization is an associated bug, not a feature.

2b. Being disconnected from nature and reality is the #1 cause for such disorder; you don't see any kind of vegetarianism in rural people.

3. People with a brain realize that eating meat is important.

4. People with a bigger brain also realize that that eating other animals is the prerogative of power: humans have simply won the animal kingdom's oldest game and are enjoying its spoils. Things wouldn't (and shouldn't) be different if positions were reversed.

frotaur 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Since you are french according to your handle, I will direct you to this video, which I liked very much : https://youtu.be/VlWvnhSiuck?si=dvgQQS1Y4oa3A1yO .

In essence, I don't disagree with points 1 and 2. But the conclusions that you draw from these could be used to justify things which, hopefully, you would find morally objectionable. It is not because empathy is not a rational response that we should not try to use rationality to shape our decisions. There are pretty of other feelings/behaviours that we choose to consider bad and worthy of punishment, regardless of the fact they are useful evolutionary tool.

Unfortunately this comment is much too short to make the full argument, but the video I linked does a great job. I was wholly convinced by it, and though I'm not vegetarian, I do try to source my meat from places with more humane conditions.

HeatrayEnjoyer 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> 2b. Being disconnected from nature and reality is the #1 cause for such disorder; you don't see any kind of vegetarianism in rural people.

This is just untrue, hundreds of millions of rural South Asians are vegetarian.

> 3. People with a brain realize that eating meat is important.

Everyone has a brain. Both vegetarian and omnivore groups have their share of geniuses and fools. Meat was important as a calorie source but it has many drawbacks in modern society totally unrelated to animal ethics; cancer risk, inefficient land use, methane production, etc.

> 4. People with a bigger brain also realize that that eating other animals is the prerogative of power: humans have simply won the animal kingdom's oldest game and are enjoying its spoils. Things wouldn't (and shouldn't) be different if positions were reversed.

This sounds like manifest destiny rhetoric and deserves just as much consideration.

chithanh 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Meat was important as a calorie source but it has many drawbacks in modern society totally unrelated to animal ethics; cancer risk, inefficient land use, methane production, etc.

I think the most important drawbacks which actually threaten modern society are deforestation and zoonoses. Both can be largely avoided by raising only insects for meat, which reduces water and land use by 80%, and CO2 emissions even more if feed is mostly food waste. It is however a hard sell and has to be hidden in products in order to be accepted by consumers.

hollerith 2 days ago | parent [-]

So, it is marketing and perception problem and not because insects are objectively terrible as food for people?

chithanh 2 days ago | parent [-]

In my understanding it is mostly a cultural thing that makes people reject insects. I am unaware of any objective measure by which are insects are terrible foods.

hollerith 2 days ago | parent [-]

And how many of your meals have included insect food?

chithanh a day ago | parent | next [-]

Here in the EU, insect powder is now an approved food additive.

https://food.ec.europa.eu/food-safety/novel-food/authorisati...

As I don't closely read labels of everything I eat, probably I consumed it inadvertently already. Otherwise, I don't eat meat.

saagarjha a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Why ask this question?

hollerith a day ago | parent [-]

If I heard somewhere that insects are good people food, I certainly wouldn't go repeating that assertion in public without having tried eating insects at least once.

It is unethical profess a belief in public, especially an unusual belief, but neglect to test that belief when a test would be inexpensive and straightforward.

It is also unethical to propose a radical change to society with only very tenuous basis in reality: people should be able to demonstrate knowledge (and not just knowledge about what beliefs will prove popular or fashionable) before they engage in public policy discussions. If the person I'm discussing with hasn't tried eating insects at least once (preferably a lot more often) he is doing us all a disservice in even engaging in a public discussion of the topic unless perhaps he has deep professional-level knowledge of the nutritional value of insects and the effect of nutrients and anti-nutrients on human health (and "insects are high in protein" alone doesn't begin to be enough knowledge).

Trolling is widely believed to be anti-social. It is approximately just as anti-social to try to whip up a public discussion of some radical social or economic change or some radical change in our daily lives with as little grounding in reality as this discussion of insects as food.

chithanh 21 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> It is also unethical to propose a radical change to society with only very tenuous basis in reality: people should be able to demonstrate knowledge (and not just knowledge about what beliefs will prove popular or fashionable) before they engage in public policy discussions. If the person I'm discussing with hasn't tried eating insects at least once (preferably a lot more often) he is doing us all a disservice in even engaging in a public discussion of the topic unless perhaps he has deep professional-level knowledge of the nutritional value of insects and the effect of nutrients and anti-nutrients on human health (and "insects are high in protein" alone doesn't begin to be enough knowledge).

That is a strange position. The most that I could contribute is anecdotal evidence anyway. The nutrient composition and the safety of insect-derived food has been rigorously studied, for example in: https://doi.org/10.2903/j.efsa.2023.8009

I linked the EU FAQ on insects in my other reply.

saagarjha a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I think it would be nice to have socialized healthcare in my country. I have never been covered by socialized healthcare. Am I trolling by expressing that opinion because I have a PPO plan through my employer?

hollerith a day ago | parent [-]

There are no ways[1] to obtain info relevant to public policy discussions about a nationwide healthcare system anywhere near as easy as, "the net is full of misinformation, so I should at least try eating insects to make sure I even can without getting sick".

[1] Or more precisely I havent been able to think of any ways.

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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stickfigure 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If the little bird was tasty it might have gone on the bbq too.

We humans are capable of empathizing with different creatures differently. Some people have their empathy dial set up so high that they anthropomorphize plants. Some have it set so low they're psychopaths. Most functional people are in the middle.

Personally, keeping chickens has almost completely put me off empathy with them. Roosters are assholes. Into the pot with you.

AxEy 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> "Personally, keeping chickens has almost completely put me off empathy with them. Roosters are assholes. Into the pot with you."

What a relief that we don't generally take this policy toward asshole humans.

At any rate, it's one thing to eat one asshole chicken and another to systematically farm asshole chicken to be killed.

jajko 2 days ago | parent [-]

What do you mean, in many places around the world we kill people society or state considers assholes, including US.

Then we can discuss where is the cutoff line for enough assholishness to go for a slaughter and where something less severe, but practice is here and not going anywhere.

AxEy 2 days ago | parent [-]

> " in many places around the world we kill people society or state considers assholes, including US."

Not really the same as systematically bringing into existence a species with behaviors you find objectionable, keeping them in your proximity so you can experience said behaviors, and then slaughtering them with the excuse that they are all assholes is it?

> "Then we can discuss where is the cutoff line for enough assholishness to go for a slaughter"

When you say that roosters cross this line do you mean with respect to their behavior towards you? I'm guessing this can't be that bad since you're much more powerful than they?

Or do you mean towards other chickens? If so, and if it's really that bad, then surely the best thing is to just not bring them into existence in the first place (not systematically breeding them with the intent of slaughtering them)?

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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vintermann 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Whether you feel empathy to someone/something or not, is really quite different from whether you have moral obligations to it. I do not think I have moral obligations to a chicken, but then again, I think everyone agrees the chicken has no moral obligations to me - jokes about asshole roosters aside, I don't think you really think the rooster has wronged you by being as it is.

Maybe moral obligations can be one-way, but then only temporarily as I see it. Someone who's sleepwalking, or a baby, don't really have moral obligations to me, but they will when they wake up / grow up.